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Derail thread on Mary

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  • #91
    Originally posted by Bisto View Post
    I assume there is a difference between angels and departed saints in the examples you quote...? (maybe it's just MY impression.) From my understanding, angels are to minister to God's people (as in Hebr. 1), and If I recall correctly, in Rev. 5 they implicitly serve as "carriers" of prayer (in the "incense" passage). I also remember some psalms where angels' presence or action is requested, commended, etc.
    As far as I can tell, it would be less 'innovative' for Jews to ask angels to intercede for them, since angels are (literally) God's messengers. Both angels and saintly ones are seen as having special access to God, however.
    In my Church, I can remember times when a pastor or prophet asked the Lord for angelic presence and support, and a few times commanding them in the context of spiritual warfare, and a few times when some brother or sister had visions concerning angels, but not much otherwise...
    I can see that.
    In Jacob's words in particular, I had come to understand that the Angel he talks about in Gen. 48 is the Angel of YHWH / pre-incarnate Son, so I infer that when Jews repeat Jacob's prayer about "that" angel in particular, they'd be referring to the one who was God's manifestation Himself.
    In the case of Jews, they would certainly NOT be referring to that, as far as I know.
    So in summary, is the distinction between angels and departed saints evident, blurred or non-existent in the context of angelic references?
    Sorta. Aside from the distinction above, there is room for disagreement over which departed saints are sufficiently saintly for effective intercession - especially since there is absolutely no mechanism for canonization in Judaism.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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    • #92
      Originally posted by Adrift View Post
      Anecdotally, it does appear to be the case among the lay Catholics I know. It's only online that I typically find a more robust understanding of prayer among Catholics, but that's usually true for all those Christians I come into contact with on websites like these where the typical poster is often a bit more interested/involved in the faith than your average pew sitter.
      Seriously? I don't believe I've ever met a single Catholic who would ever defend such a position. And I have known an awful lot of Catholics!

      Originally posted by Bisto View Post
      Robrecht:
      Hello! From what I read, nobody has postulated that here, and I assume you would be against such idea. Nonetheless, as Adrift has mentioned, it is an attitude one can find elsewhere. I didn't bring it up as "well poisoning" or anything of that sort ;)...
      It does seem like a very exaggerated claim to me.
      Last edited by robrecht; 04-04-2016, 08:37 PM.
      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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      • #93
        Originally posted by robrecht View Post
        Seriously? I don't believe I've ever met a single Catholic who would ever defend such a position. And I have known an awful lot of Catholics!
        Perhaps it's regional. I've lived in heavily Catholic towns (Portuguese and Irish). Seems very common place.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by robrecht View Post
          Seriously? I don't believe I've ever met a single Catholic who would ever defend such a position. And I have known an awful lot of Catholics!

          It does seem like a very exaggerated claim to me.
          I apologize if it left you with a bad taste . I said that was what I find "odd". Clearly it doesn't include you nor any Catholics you have known ;D


          As an aside, I remember that some posts on the veneration of Mary being the highest among the saints, point her out as the one who has loved our Lord the most, being his mother. While I understand the force of this line of thought, I found myself thinking whether I could affirm that with such certainty. I think, why couldn't some brother or sister throughout the centuries have loved Jesus more?

          I know there's really no way to know for sure until we sleep (we'll see who "shines" the most, perhaps?), but I think in particular of those brethren who have had the most horrible deeds forgiven to them in Christ (as in "who is forgiven more, loves more"). In my Church we've had brethren who, before the Lord called them, used to be satanists and did things I will not bring up, but from what I can see, they have been among the most faithful, consecrated, humble, etc., exemplary servants of God I have known. In a way, I look at Paul similarly. So I think, what of the brothers and sisters who have lived all this time? I wouldn't find it odd if the most loyal servant of Jesus ever turned out to be some "anonymous" saint long forgotten in the flesh, perhaps even a former criminal turned servant of the King, living a life consecrated to Him in some corner of the world, with a quiet yet powerful witness that impacted greatly the lives of the handful of people who met him/her, yet whose love for Him passed otherwise unnoticed. (I remember the woman that appears in Lewis' "The Great Divorce" too for a similar scenario.)

          I understand the argument for saying that Mary would be "first" among Christ's followers... but in truth, I simply don't know. Perhaps she is, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were otherwise.


          Originally posted by Adrift View Post
          Perhaps it's regional. I've lived in heavily Catholic towns (Portuguese and Irish). Seems very common place.
          Could be the case too in what I've seen and what my former-RCC brethren tell. We're in Chile (South America) and not exactly in the urban capital.
          Last edited by Bisto; 04-04-2016, 09:25 PM.
          We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore on Christ's behalf: 'Be reconciled to God!!'
          - 2 Corinthians 5:20.
          In deviantArt: ll-bisto-ll.deviantart.com
          Christian art and more: Christians.deviantart.com

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          • #95
            Originally posted by Bisto View Post
            I apologize if it left you with a bad taste . I said that was what I find "odd". Clearly it doesn't include you nor any Catholics you have known ;D

            As an aside, I remember that some posts on the veneration of Mary being the highest among the saints, point her out as the one who has loved our Lord the most, being his mother. While I understand the force of this line of thought, I found myself thinking whether I could affirm that with such certainty. I think, why couldn't some brother or sister throughout the centuries have loved Jesus more?

            I know there's really no way to know for sure until we sleep (we'll see who "shines" the most, perhaps?), but I think in particular of those brethren who have had the most horrible deeds forgiven to them in Christ (as in "who is forgiven more, loves more"). In my Church we've had brethren who, before the Lord called them, used to be satanists and did things I will not bring up, but from what I can see, they have been among the most faithful, consecrated, humble, etc., exemplary servants of God I have known. In a way, I look at Paul similarly. So I think, what of the brothers and sisters who have lived all this time? I wouldn't find it odd if the most loyal servant of Jesus ever turned out to be some "anonymous" saint long forgotten in the flesh, perhaps even a former criminal turned servant of the King, living a life consecrated to Him in some corner of the world, with a quiet yet powerful witness that impacted greatly the lives of the handful of people who met him/her, yet whose love for Him passed otherwise unnoticed. (I remember the woman that appears in Lewis' "The Great Divorce" too for a similar scenario.)

            I understand the argument for saying that Mary would be "first" among Christ's followers... but in truth, I simply don't know. Perhaps she is, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were otherwise.

            Could be the case too in what I've seen and what my former-RCC brethren tell. We're in Chile (South America) and not exactly in the urban capital.
            I think general statements about Mary's love for her son, Jesus, being greater than that of anyone else, are merely general reflections about any mother's love for her children being perhaps the greatest love that any of us normally know in our normal human experience. Such statements merely help us reflect upon the awesome doctrine of the incarnation. I don't think they are meant as some kind of dogmatic or verifiable quantification of any one person's love for God compared or contrasted with any other theoretical or concrete love experienced or expressed by anyone else.
            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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            • #96
              Originally posted by robrecht View Post
              I think general statements about Mary's love for her son, Jesus, being greater than that of anyone else, are merely general reflections about any mother's love for her children being perhaps the greatest love that any of us normally know in our normal human experience. Such statements merely help us reflect upon the awesome doctrine of the incarnation. I don't think they are meant as some kind of dogmatic or verifiable quantification of any one person's love for God compared or contrasted with any other theoretical or concrete love experienced or expressed by anyone else.
              I see. Thanks for the clarification! I wasn't sure if it was that or a dogmatic-like declaration :-)
              We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore on Christ's behalf: 'Be reconciled to God!!'
              - 2 Corinthians 5:20.
              In deviantArt: ll-bisto-ll.deviantart.com
              Christian art and more: Christians.deviantart.com

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              • #97
                Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                That error would include Mariology...........right?
                Absolutely ! :)

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                  Hi, Isaac. Has anyone here been defending the practice of praying more to Mary than to God???
                  That just makes no sense - to pray to Our Lady, or to any other Saint, is praying to her Divine Lord, Who is Our Lord also. All that we receive through her, comes from Him. She comes from Him - no-one else is her Creator.

                  Love of Our Lady is not separable from love of the her Divine Son, Who is her Creator and Redeemer and Saviour and Lord. To love her at all, is to love Him, because she is, has, and does nothing that is not His. The light in her that makes her shine so gloriously, is always and entirely His Light in her. Total Consecration to her takes nothing from Him, because it has no purpose but union with Him. She is found only and always with Him and in Him - never in separation from Him. She cannot be loved, nor rightly seen, except in Him.

                  God is the "terminus" for all Christian prayer - bar none. Including all prayer to the Saints. To acknowledge the wealth and variety and breadth and height and depth of their graces, is to acknowledge the work of God in, for, and through them. The Saints reflected the many-splendoured Glory of God - they are evidences of Him, reminders of Him, further reasons for thankfulness to Him and ever-fuller adoration of Him. They have no purpose, except for Him.

                  Those of them whose devotion to Our Lady was most fervent and unreserved, such as St Alphonsus Liguori, or a host of others in East and West, seem to have the most fervent and unreserved faith in her Divine Son. Love of our Lady strengthens faith in Our Lord - it is anything but an obstacle to faith in Him. What is essential, is to begin with Him. Our Lady is less than nothing without Him, and will only be seen out of focus, if looked at in separation from Him.

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                  • #99
                    I pray almost exclusively to the Virgin Mary. I preface all the prayers I give Christ with an Ave, and so send the prayer to God through her immaculate hands. That's been a pious practice for a long time in Christianity. It has a focus on the kingship of Christ, and us being poor sinners. I do it for all the reasons Rushing Jaws lay out.

                    Any devotion I give to the Virgin, is also devotion given to God.

                    I imagine that when the Bible describes the saints as different stars in Heaven, with one shining as bright as the moon, that this moon is her. The Queen of Heaven, the greatest disciple of Christ. She was the first believer, and among the last to abandon Him. I challenge you to go back and read the Church Fathers on her. Pick up St. Augustine and read his prayers to her, they say nothing different then than what Catholics consider her to be now.

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                    • Rushing Jaws, Leonhard:

                      First, thanks for your thoughtful replies :-)

                      What you say is more or less what I understood from this and the other thread(s?). I guess I understand your points, and at its core, I agree (e.g. Mary took a part in Jesus' coming, like her own ancestors all the way back to Adam and Eve, but in a unique way; or, the love-joined Body of Christ comprises all the people of God in Heaven and Earth).

                      The thing of describing Mary as the "moon" or "queen" among the saints is this picture of her as the "quintessential Christian", a point that I understand, even if I personally think it might not necessarily be right in the end (as in, it wouldn't be a surprise if some anonymous brother or sister through the centuries was the greatest, humblest, most faithful, etc. disciple of Christ ever). Nonetheless, I agree with your basic points, so I would agree she's one of the "top candidates" we know of, so to speak, so she may well end up being the "moon equivalent" (from our geocentric perspective, etc. ).


                      My questions were more about what the Apostles and early Church would have practiced -- e.g. given that what few of Paul's prayers we have record of in the NT, they're addressed to God Himself. I will check more on the Fathers eventually, for sure, but it might still be notable, in a way, that the Apostles didn't do it in the prayers they wrote in their epistles. Nonetheless, this "silence" may well not mean much, since as seen in the articles provided by OBP, prayer to deceased saints may have been a thing back then.

                      In the end, while I more or less agree with your points, I personally wouldn't feel comfortable doing it at all. So I guess this is to understand you guys better, complement whoever I see (among my Evangelical brethren) with a different picture of the way it should be in a Catholic setting (since, like I said, my former-RC brethren have the lowest of opinions about these things), be able to relate better with any other Catholics I find (I met one today in a Bible study group in college :D), and in a way, "test" how they see it -- to make sure they're within the "parameters" implicit in your united witness so far.
                      We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore on Christ's behalf: 'Be reconciled to God!!'
                      - 2 Corinthians 5:20.
                      In deviantArt: ll-bisto-ll.deviantart.com
                      Christian art and more: Christians.deviantart.com

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                        I pray almost exclusively to the Virgin Mary. I preface all the prayers I give Christ with an Ave ...
                        To me this sounds more like praying with Mary to God, not to Mary herself as if one would or could pray to her apart from God.

                        Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                        ... and so send the prayer to God through her immaculate hands. That's been a pious practice for a long time in Christianity. It has a focus on the kingship of Christ, and us being poor sinners. I do it for all the reasons Rushing Jaws lay out.

                        Any devotion I give to the Virgin, is also devotion given to God.

                        I imagine that when the Bible describes the saints as different stars in Heaven, with one shining as bright as the moon, that this moon is her. The Queen of Heaven, the greatest disciple of Christ. She was the first believer, and among the last to abandon Him. I challenge you to go back and read the Church Fathers on her. Pick up St. Augustine and read his prayers to her, they say nothing different then than what Catholics consider her to be now.
                        Emphasis mine. Do you agree perhaps?
                        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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