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Derail thread on Mary

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  • #31
    Originally posted by mossrose View Post
    Well, thanks for correcting me on that point. Which mostly only proves that Mariology has been around for longer than JPII and millions of Catholics have been following her for probably hundreds of years.
    The title of theotokos goes back about 1500 years . The tradition of the Assumption/Dormition goes back to the time of the early Church, though it was only declared infallibly in the last hundred years.
    Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
      The title of theotokos goes back about 1500 years . The tradition of the Assumption/Dormition goes back to the time of the early Church, though it was only declared infallibly in the last hundred years.
      Has the Dormition of The Mother of God also been declared infallible in the Catholic Church or is it so far only the Assumption (if so I fully expect the Dormition to follow someday).

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
        The title of theotokos goes back about 1500 years . The tradition of the Assumption/Dormition goes back to the time of the early Church, though it was only declared infallibly in the last hundred years.
        I remember reading there was a lot of debate about theotokos before it became official. It might do us all some good to read what they discussed on it back to understand where the term comes from and what it means.

        I have found a lot of doctrine is more refined that what I originally believed and the commentary helps. For example, I was reading on doctrines on the nature of the Trinity and found a couple points of my belief were borderline heresy.
        "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

        "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
          Has the Dormition of The Mother of God also been declared infallible in the Catholic Church or is it so far only the Assumption (if so I fully expect the Dormition to follow someday).
          The doctrines are not identical, but they refer to basically the same event such that I don't feel particularly bad about conflating them despite the small distinctions. The dormition has not been declared infallible, and I guess I'd actually be surprised if it were.
          Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by mossrose View Post
            What? I am talking about people praying to Mary to intercede for them with Christ, and ultimately, God the Father. I can pray to any person of the Trinity without having to ask another sinful human to do it for me. And although we often ask others to pray on our behalf, they are living people, not dead ones.

            And Mary was another sinful human who I am certain would be telling people they are in error praying to her, venerating her, even paying the slightest bit of attention to her beyond what is told us about her in scripture, if she even cared about what we are doing.

            She is likely too busy glorifying her Saviour to even have a single thought about anyone here, let alone intercede for anybody.
            They are not dead, but alive in Christ, and, of course, they care about us and love us. They cannot love God without loving their brothers and sisters in Christ, all mankind, and all creation. I know that you believe in the communion of saints, which means we are all in communion with each other in Christ. How could we not care for each other?
            Yet she on earth has union
            with God, the Three in One,
            and mystic sweet communion
            with those whose rest is won:
            O happy ones and holy!
            Lord, give us grace that we,
            like them, the meek and lowly,
            on high may dwell with Thee.
            Last edited by robrecht; 04-11-2015, 06:29 AM.
            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
              Her son is like a sun, giving off its own light. She's like the moon, giving off a reflection of this light, having none inherently on its own. Any respect we pay to any glory given to the Virgin Mary is respect we give to Christ.
              So we might as well venerate Christ and not Mary and avoid all the idolatry the latter tends to.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                So we might as well venerate Christ and not Mary
                During sacred liturgies her prayers invoked at certain points, at the penitential rite for instance.

                Beyond that, there isn't really anything a Catholic has to do other than acknowledge the glory God gave to her.

                I personally fell in love with her. And I direct most if not all prayers through her. Christ gave her to us for a mother, I doubt there are any of those who make themselves her children who wont be saved.

                and avoid all the idolatry
                Such as? I am not aware of any.

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                • #38
                  T
                  Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                  They are not dead, but alive in Christ, and, of course, they care about us and love us. They cannot love God without loving their brothers and sisters in Christ, all mankind, and all creation. I know that you believe in the communion of saints, which means we are all in communion with each other in Christ. How could we not care for each other?
                  Yet she on earth has union
                  with God, the Three in One,
                  and mystic sweet communion
                  with those whose rest is won:
                  O happy ones and holy!
                  Lord, give us grace that we,
                  like them, the meek and lowly,
                  on high may dwell with Thee.
                  If you think that is what that song means, you are mistaken. Unless you think that the saints in the presence of the Lord are also praying to us just as you pray to them. Frankly, I haven't had any dead saints talking to me lately. Never, actually.

                  That song, all the way through, IS referring to the whole body of Christ, those living, and those in glory. The very first line is "The church's one foundation is JESUS CHRIST HER LORD". Emphasis mine. No Mary in there, anywhere. No mention of her in the entire hymn.

                  The "mystic, sweet communion" we share with those in God's presence is simply that we are all part of the body of CHRIST (not Mary), and we desire to be with them in heaven. Singing praises to Him, not worrying about what is occurring on the earth.


                  Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                    During sacred liturgies her prayers invoked at certain points, at the penitential rite for instance.

                    Beyond that, there isn't really anything a Catholic has to do other than acknowledge the glory God gave to her.

                    I personally fell in love with her. And I direct most if not all prayers through her. Christ gave her to us for a mother, I doubt there are any of those who make themselves her children who wont be saved.
                    I acknowledge the great gift God gave to Mary, but I have not fallen in love with her enough to think she is now a conduit for my prayers. She cannot answer prayer. She does not intercede for us. She is not my mother.

                    And by your statement that you "doubt there are any of those who make themselves her children who won't be saved", you have done away with the need for Christ and added something else to the way to salvation.

                    This is not the gospel of scripture, it is not the Jesus of scripture, and hence it is false teaching.


                    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                      Such as? I am not aware of any.


                      But then again, you're a new Catholic so maybe you don't know: despite the careful delineation of the dogma it is quite common for the average Catholics to treat her as a god. And let us of course not forget all the increasing centralisation of Mariology into much Catholic praxis (as mossrose pointed out re: JPII) and theology, eg the increasing popularity of "co-redemptrix", "mediatrix of all graces" and

                      Originally posted by Spartacus
                      I happen to believe that this pattern holds for other marian doctrines and dogmas: when we talk about Mary, we're fortifying our commitment to some other significant theological or soteriological concept.
                      Last edited by Paprika; 04-11-2015, 10:23 AM.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                        I acknowledge the great gift God gave to Mary, but I have not fallen in love with her enough to think she is now a conduit for my prayers. She cannot answer prayer. She does not intercede for us. She is not my mother.
                        Again, this comes from your belief that no saint in Heaven intercedes for us. I think that's a mistake.

                        And by your statement that you "doubt there are any of those who make themselves her children who won't be saved", you have done away with the need for Christ and added something else to the way to salvation.
                        I know what you're saying, but I just told you earlier in this thread that she has no glory she didn't receive from her Son. While she likely suffered more than any martyr when He died on the cross, this merit would not be sufficient to obtain the forgiveness of even the smallest sinner. However, like with the wedding and Christ's first miracle, I do think she can obtain graces for her children, such as repentance, conversion, purity, and other things they need when they try to seek Christ's forgiveness.

                        This is not the gospel of scripture, it is not the Jesus of scripture, and hence it is false teaching.
                        So far you haven't represented what I believe, so I have no problem agreeing that some of the things you're talking about is false. However you're the one who's in error if you think the saints in Heaven don't pray for us, or that its somehow only the prayers of sinful humans on Earth who matter. You're also in error if you think the Virgin Mary won't intercede for us, or that if she does that there's anything her Son will refuse her.

                        Since you're not using Scripture, I think in the end this is going to come down to a discussion of Tradition, and who has the authority to interpret it.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Paprika View Post


                          But then again, you're a new Catholic so maybe you don't know: despite the careful delineation of the dogma it is quite common for the average Catholics to treat her as a god.
                          You do realize that this is too vague to respond to, or even agree with, right? I don't have to acknowledge that as happening, as I'm not aware of it and I've been with people who pray to no one but Mary the Mother of God. There's nothing I've ever experienced that suggests that any Catholic, of any stripe, considers the Virgin Mary as anything other than the greatest follower of Christ, who were given unique and awesome graces, and place great confidence in her intercession for us with Him. Everyone, even an ignorant house wife of a peasant, in the words of St. Alphonsus, knows that the Virgin Mary is not God.

                          The only people I've met who considered her a Goddess, are all now protestants.

                          The most Holy thing we get to participate in, is the Sacrament of the Eucharist. That's the part of Catholic Faith where we actually get to be with Jesus substantially, not just spiritually. He's actually present under the appearance of bread and wine. Participating in a mass, where this is the unbloodied sacrifice to the Father, is the highest form of worship we can possible offer.

                          Marian devotion is no substitute for that. If for some bizarre and contrived reason I had to choose between saying saying many more prayers to her but not experience that, or say no prayer to her but get one more mass before I die? I'd chose to not pray. Though short of an Angle declaring, and making this sure to me, I'm really not sure why I'd believe it to begin with.

                          And let us of course not forget all the increasing centralisation of Mariology into much Catholic praxis (as mossrose pointed out re: JPII) and theology, eg the increasing popularity of "co-redemptrix", "mediatrix of all graces" and
                          There's nothing wrong with these titles. You can consecrate yourself to Jesus entirely through His Mother if you want to, which is something many pious Catholic's do. I certainly have no qualms doing that, unless it meant I couldn't receive the Sacraments, which it doesn't, because one of the things you're quite often made to pray for is greater fidelity to Christ, to confess your sins more often, to live more purely and to receive Christ often. Again you'd have to show where this is a problem.

                          This is especially ironic if you're doing this from a protestant position, because I've yet to see a Biblical verse about how many prayers are supposed to go to Jesus vs how many are supposed to go to saints. There's a false equivalence made between songs, prayers and worship in protestantism.

                          The Bible certainly isn't against praying to Saints, and in the books that Luther yanked out of the Bible (along with Hebrews, Jude, James and the Revelation, though he wasn't succesful in doing that to the canon for protestants), we do find that praying to saints is something that's within God's Will because of their intercession for our sake.

                          Tobit 12:15
                          I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One.

                          2 Maccabees 12:44
                          For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.

                          2 Maccabees 15:14
                          And Onias spoke, saying, "This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God."
                          (Jeremiah has been bodily dead for a long time at the time of 2 Maccabees)

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                            You do realize that this is too vague to respond to, or even agree with, right? I don't have to acknowledge that as happening, as I'm not aware of it and I've been with people who pray to no one but Mary the Mother of God. There's nothing I've ever experienced that suggests that any Catholic, of any stripe, considers the Virgin Mary as anything other than the greatest follower of Christ, who were given unique and awesome graces, and place great confidence in her intercession for us with Him. Everyone, even an ignorant house wife of a peasant, in the words of St. Alphonsus, knows that the Virgin Mary is not God.
                            Knowledge doesn't necessarily imply consistent action; consider how many know that money is not a god but act like it is.

                            There's nothing wrong with these titles. You can consecrate yourself to Jesus entirely through His Mother if you want to, which is something many pious Catholic's do. I certainly have no qualms doing that, unless it meant I couldn't receive the Sacraments, which it doesn't, because one of the things you're quite often made to pray for is greater fidelity to Christ, to confess your sins more often, to live more purely and to receive Christ often. Again you'd have to show where this is a problem.
                            It is an pattern of how more and more is ascribed to Mary who becomes more and more an idol de facto.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                              Knowledge doesn't necessarily imply consistent action; consider how many know that money is not a god but act like it is.

                              It is an pattern of how more and more is ascribed to Mary who becomes more and more an idol de facto.
                              Again, vague insinuations. This isn't really an argument I have to acknowledge. Is it that hard to think of a concrete example?

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                                Again, vague insinuations. This isn't really an argument I have to acknowledge.
                                But you do.

                                Is it that hard to think of a concrete example?
                                I suspect if I give concrete examples, they'll be handwaved away as mere exceptions. And when I list general forms of increasingly idolisation you ask for concrete examples. Very well: yourself.

                                But as you say, "this is going to come down to a discussion of Tradition".

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