Iraq constitution approved!

[CatholicSage]

By a nearly 79% majority! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9803257/

That's quite a decisive number, I think. If you have any goodness in your heart whatsoever, no matter your political leaning, you will recognize this as a successful and positive development.

[Ryokan]

By a nearly 79% majority! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9803257/

That's quite a decisive number, I think. If you have any goodness in your heart whatsoever, no matter your political leaning, you will recognize this as a successful and positive development.

Not if the 20% opposing consist in most part of the Sunni minority that makes up 20% of the pop. Then its just a prelude to civil war.

[James Peter]

Especially when in one province 96% rejected it and in another it was in the high 80s... Five provinces had a large number reject the constitution. So whilst the approval is a good thing it may just paper over the cracks, and even then not very well.

[Mountain Man]

If you have any goodness in your heart whatsoever, no matter your political leaning, you will recognize this as a successful and positive development.

You're right, I don't think the liberals will get it, either.

[Mujibur]

It's interesting that it was Ninevah that prevented the Sunnis from overturning the constitution.

Haven't heard any news about them since Jonah.

[Ryokan]

You're right, I don't think the liberals will get it, either.

What about conservatives? I hope things go well, but the only sure sign will be when large numbers of militants try to come in from the cold.

[MuggleOrSquib]

Y'all can cheer as much as you want, but I'm not happy AT ALL about handing an indigenous Christian population (Assyrians, Chaldeans...) over to an OFFICIALLY Muslim government. They were afraid of this, and were hoping that the constitution would be defeated. If y'all get the chance, ask the Chaldean Americans and Assyrian Americans what they thought about the constitution.
I'm not sure y'all know this, but the persecution of the Copts and the Iranian converts (prosecution and sometimes execution) is sanctioned, if not required, under Sharia.

[Bagger_Vance]

Hip! Hip!...kaboom!

[Conductor42]

I'm not sure what to think of this.

On the one side, I share CS's sentiments.

On the other hand, I sorta know an Assyrian and she's mortified by this situation. Many of them are trying to raise up as much money as possible to get their families out of Iraq before the consenquences of this constitution wreck havoc upon them.

[MuggleOrSquib]

I find it interesting that I appear to be the only Christian in this thread who is concerned about the indigenous Assyrian/Chaldean/Syriac [and Armenian] Christian population of Iraq. Those Christians whose posts precede mine have been celebrating the victory of the Shi'ites over the Christians and pro-secular Iraqis. How fascinating.

OK, I'll give y'all this--you weren't thinking about the Iraqi Christians, just about the Sunis and the American left.

So folks, how many indigenous Christian communities are you willing to waste to further your politics or foreign policy? If you think I'm harsh here, think about the Assyrian families who've been killed, the Assyrian teenagers who've been beheaded... this SINCE we've gotten involved in their homeland.

By the way, Nineveh province is the province of Mosul, one of the areas with a higher Assyrian/Chaldean population, where there were allegations of vote fraud and vote suppression last winter (most likely by the Kurds) targetting the Chaldo-Assyrians.

Be Well,
Bob Griffin

[Ryokan]

I find it interesting that I appear to be the only Christian in this thread who is concerned about the indigenous Assyrian/Chaldean/Syriac [and Armenian] Christian population of Iraq. Those Christians whose posts precede mine have been celebrating the victory of the Shi'ites over the Christians and pro-secular Iraqis. How fascinating.

Well, most other posters here are realistic. A secular Iraqi state would never have survived. Some people, unfortunately, have to get it in exchange for stability. This tiny minority is such.

OK, I'll give y'all this--you weren't thinking about the Iraqi Christians, just about the Sunis and the American left.

Huh?

So folks, how many indigenous Christian communities are you willing to waste to further your politics or foreign policy? If you think I'm harsh here, think about the Assyrian families who've been killed, the Assyrian teenagers who've been beheaded... this SINCE we've gotten involved in their homeland.

It is impossible to keep people from being wasted, unfortunately. Its a matter of limiting them as much as possible. it is, in my opinion, likely that disrespecting the tiny Assyrian minorities rights will save more lives than it will cost.

By the way, Nineveh province is the province of Mosul, one of the areas with a higher Assyrian/Chaldean population, where there were allegations of vote fraud and vote suppression last winter (most likely by the Kurds) targetting the Chaldo-Assyrians.

Be Well,
Bob Griffin

The Kurds aspire to nationhood, have fought for it for years, and are not going to let minority get in the way. See Israel vs. the Palestinians. Aside from which, the most stable region in Iraq is Kurdistan. We don't need them in revolt too.

[MuggleOrSquib]

Ryokan,
I appreciate your response. On this issue, I would not be surprised by a lack of interest on the part of non-Christians for an indigenous Christian community. As you say,

Some people, unfortunately, have to get it in exchange for stability. This tiny minority is such.

This is a very real-politische viewpoint, and is seems quite common among many who consider global politics.
What has been surprising me is the outspoken Christians who are supporting real Politik to the detriment of an indigenous Christian community. Is it that they despise non-Western Christians? I don't get it.
Local right wing radio hosts used the situation of the Iraqi Christians in 2003 to justify invading Iraq, but we are allowing the situation for those same Christians to become far worse than in was in 2003.
----
Yes, the Kurds aspire to nationhood, and are not worried about how many Assyrians and Chaldeans must give up land, daughters, and lives in order for Kurdish aspirations to be achieved. Same attitude in regards to the Yezidis, Shabaks, Turkomen (the one group which actually HAS an interested outside party).

I really see no reason for you, Ryokan, to be supportive of the Assyrians, Chaldeans, Yezidis, Shabaks... There is no tie of which I am aware of culture or religion. But in regards to my fellow Christians, there ARE religious ties. And in regards to CS--the Chaldeans are an indigenous Catholic population!!! The Chaldeans tend to be pro-American, conservative...
As to Mountain Man--among the Assyrians are Protestants, converts from the 'Nestorian' church due to the activity of American and British missionaries in the Urumiah region of Iran during the 19th century. Again, mostly conservative, pro-American...
Gosh, if y'all are happy to see your natural allies treated like this, then I'm glad that I'm a left-winger. The sort of contradiction between using the plight of a Christian population to support the arguments for a war and then abandoning that same population to persecution and perhaps even death for the sake of political expediency is just beyond me. Can't do it. Was afraid of something vaguely like this when we went in in 2003, but am REALLY not happy to see y'all live DOWN to my expectations!!! :(

Ryokan, the above paragraph is aimed specifically at my fellow Christians. I can find no such inconsistency with your viewpoint, though I don't share it.

Be Well,
Bob Griffin

[Ryokan]

Ryokan,
I appreciate your response. On this issue, I would not be surprised by a lack of interest on the part of non-Christians for an indigenous Christian community. As you say,

This is a very real-politische viewpoint, and is seems quite common among many who consider global politics.
What has been surprising me is the outspoken Christians who are supporting real Politik to the detriment of an indigenous Christian community. Is it that they despise non-Western Christians? I don't get it.
Local right wing radio hosts used the situation of the Iraqi Christians in 2003 to justify invading Iraq, but we are allowing the situation for those same Christians to become far worse than in was in 2003.
----
Yes, the Kurds aspire to nationhood, and are not worried about how many Assyrians and Chaldeans must give up land, daughters, and lives in order for Kurdish aspirations to be achieved. Same attitude in regards to the Yezidis, Shabaks, Turkomen (the one group which actually HAS an interested outside party).

I really see no reason for you, Ryokan, to be supportive of the Assyrians, Chaldeans, Yezidis, Shabaks... There is no tie of which I am aware of culture or religion. But in regards to my fellow Christians, there ARE religious ties. And in regards to CS--the Chaldeans are an indigenous Catholic population!!! The Chaldeans tend to be pro-American, conservative...
As to Mountain Man--among the Assyrians are Protestants, converts from the 'Nestorian' church due to the activity of American and British missionaries in the Urumiah region of Iran during the 19th century. Again, mostly conservative, pro-American...
Gosh, if y'all are happy to see your natural allies treated like this, then I'm glad that I'm a left-winger. The sort of contradiction between using the plight of a Christian population to support the arguments for a war and then abandoning that same population to persecution and perhaps even death for the sake of political expediency is just beyond me. Can't do it. Was afraid of something vaguely like this when we went in in 2003, but am REALLY not happy to see y'all live DOWN to my expectations!!! :(

Ryokan, the above paragraph is aimed specifically at my fellow Christians. I can find no such inconsistency with your viewpoint, though I don't share it.

Be Well,
Bob Griffin

Well, my only thought is: Is it consistent with the Christian world view to value Christian lives over others?

[MuggleOrSquib]

Well, my only thought is: Is it consistent with the Christian world view to value Christian lives over others?

I am interested in the responses of others, but from my perspective, it is not consistent with my world view to value Christian lives over others.

Nor is it consistent with my worldview to value the lives and freedom of 90% of the population OVER AGAINST that of the remaining 10%. (I'm a BHL, a 'Bleeding Heart Liberal') That's why I can't agree with your viewpoint. I can't find a situation where 10% of the population will almost certainly undergo increased persecution as an acceptible situation. On the other hand, it doesn't seem as if American involvement in Iraq is improving the situation for the minorities, and thus I don't see prolonged American involvement as a solution.

Be Well,
Bob Griffin

[Conductor42]

IMO, Iraq might be better off divided into 2 or 3 seperate countries.