Sanctification in Death?

[johnnybanano]

Philippians 1:6 (NIV)

being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

As a person with a Nazarene upbringing, I believe that this "good work" which God began in "you" is the process of sanctification, or the process of receiving the Spirit of God and putting the flesh to death. By "the flesh", I mean the sinful nature.

Galatians 5:16-17 (NIV)

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature [flesh]. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.

Galatians 5:24 (NIV)

Those who beling to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.

Colossians 2:11 (NIV)

In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

At first read, these verses seem to suggest that there was an instant change in behavior when one was saved. This is not necessarily true. Paul followed these verses with instructions to do things that were in accordance with the Spirit.

Philippians 1:27a (NIV)

Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ.

Paul also makes the point that even he has not fully discarded the sinful nature. But surely no one will doubt that he was saved.

Romans 7:14 (NIV)

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual.

Paul had not yet put off the sinful nature and fully embraced the entirety of God's Spirit, which would make him spiritual.

Romans 7:17-18 (NIV)

As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature [flesh].

Romans 7:24-25 (NIV)

What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!

AMEN! HALLELUJAH!

For the person who is saved, the thing inside of them that causes them to do evil is their sinful nature, or flesh. This body of death that we have received will be destroyed when we die. When we are raised, we will have a new, sinless body.

In the meantime however, after we are saved, we experience a mental change. We begin to change our attitude and such. This doesn't mean that we no longer sin, we will continue to be sinful creatures until we are rescued from this body of death. However, the process that we experience is one in which we are molded by God's Spirit to mentally be prepared for our future sinlessness. This process is called sanctification. Our minds are being made holy and we, as a sign of the mental change, alter our behavior accordingly.

This is my first point: The "good work" which God began in us is the process of sanctification, a process of purifying the mind.

My second point has to do with "...the day of Christ Jesus."

2 Thessalonians 2:1-2

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some probphecy, report or letter supposed to have some from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.

I think that one can connect the "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him" with "the day of the Lord" as being the same thing. The verse says that we will be gathered to him. This sounds a lot like the resurrection of the dead at Jesus second coming. I believe that the day of the Lord, or the "day of Christ Jesus" is the day that Jesus returns to earth (Second Coming) and the dead are raised. If this is the case, then that means that the Philippians 1:6 verse can be read in this context:

When a person is saved, the "good work" of sanctification begins and is carried out until Jesus returns.

The only problem is that most people who have-been/will-be saved have/will die before Jesus returns. Does this mean that sanctification continues after we die? If not, then the process would not be carried on until the day of Christ Jesus. And if the "good work" is not sanctification, what do you think it might be? That was the best that I could come up with.

I understand that w/ everything mentioned here, there is great possibility of this thread taking several different directions. That's cool as long sa it's somehow related to this. By the way, this is just an idea that I got in a Bible Study. As I was writing this post, my opinion has changed a little bit. I am still interested in other's opinions nonetheless, so please, you are more than welcome to comment. All constructive and respectful responses are more than welcome.

Love and Respect

[seer]

You know johnny, most of the christians on earth today (Orthodox and Catholic) believe in some form of purgatory.


http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

[mandolin]

well...now give me a reason (within the confines of good old fashioned sola scriptura) to believe in purgatory..then maybe I'll cave in. But christ said that believers would go to paradise. Non-believers would go to Hades. At the GWT judgements...hades is judged and cast into gehenna (the lake of fire) believers are in paradise (heaven...probably where the multitude in white robes is kicking it...with the angels) and they are judged for their works, rewarded, and put in the new heaven/earth.

Ok...so why believe in purgatory?? I never could follow that teaching. It's not even talked about in the apocrypha (though i might be mistaken...I'm no apocrypha scholar)

So why (besides church tradition) should one believe in purgatory...when the bible says hades/paradise?

Now...i realize this is hardly the topic of the room...but it did come up, and I must say that If ind purgatory to be a hard thing to grasp. It's too...uhh...un-scriptural to be true. (IMHO)

[johnnybanano]

Yesterday @ 09:02 AM post located here
seer:

You know johnny, most of the christians on earth today (Orthodox and Catholic) believe in some form of purgatory.


http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

But we don't dare call it purgatory. As I said in my former post, my opinion has altered slightly since I began it. I don't at this point believe that we are conscious after we die. However, I believe that because we are not conscious, the time it takes us to go from the moment we die, to the moment we meet the Lord seems instantaneous. I know that there are verses which some think oppose this thought, however, there are also verses which seem to support it. I don't believe that I would hold to it if there weren't.

Posted by mandolin on Yesterday 05:10 PM:
Now...i realize this is hardly the topic of the room...but it did come up, and I must say that If ind purgatory to be a hard thing to grasp. It's too...uhh...un-scriptural to be true. (IMHO)

I agree that the traditional concept of purgatory seems fairly un-scriptural. I do not profess nor encourage such a belief. However, the verse does say that this "good work" will be carried out to completion until the day of Christ. What that means is something that we are clearly going to have different opinions of. It could simply mean: For the rest of your lives, God will continue to make you better. It could also mean that the continuation of perfection which I suggested could take place in paradise as Paul was in fact speaking to "the saints in Christ Jesus". The reference to the day of Christ could simply be another way of saying until we depart from this world. This, however, is not what it says. I don't know whether or not that's what it means. I am not extensively educated on the implications of "the Day of Christ" or its context in Paul's writings. I do however know that I have been taught that this means the day of Jesus Second Coming and have not seen any scripture to contradict that. If you have some, anyone, please, you are more than welcome to share it.

This was just a question that I thought I would get a few opinions on. I don't promote the tradition of Purgatory. I am not implying that if these people are still being made better in death, they must be in Purgatory. All that I am doing is presenting a verse and sharing what it seems to be saying to me. This verse, Philippians 1:6, is in fact saying that

...he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

In all fairness, it could mean all sorts of things. I am just trying to find out what it really means from the actual words.


One side note, and no, it's not the intended topic, but I tend to experience ADD every once in a while and really don't mind what is being discussed as long as I am getting something out of it,

Mandolin, you said that the Bible tells us that when we die, we go either to Paradise or to Hades. I won't argue this. However, it would seem that there must be something that decides who will go to Paradise and Hades, and it would also seem that this principle which is the deciding factor, have something to do with a judgement of the the individuals life. The only problem is that, if people are judged when they die, and this judgement is competent enought to determine whether that person goes to Paradise or to Hades, then why is there a need for the Great White Throne Judgement (I assume that this is what GWT denoted in your post.) This is something that causes me to believe that the dead are unconscious until the first resurrection (the resurrection of those who will reign w/ Christ for one thousand years). I ask in humble inquiry, not in accusatory rhetoric. I am trying to find truth. If I seem to be argumentative, it is because discernment has not been perfected in me, and I am trying to test these ideas. Regardless, honest input is always appreciated.


P.S. Forgive whatever incoherency of organization you may have encountered, I wrote this on little sleep. That seems to be a common occurence on this site.

Love and Respect

[seer]

A couple of points mandolin. First, if you read my link you will see that Cathloics do have scriptural backing for purgatory. And second, you have a CS Lewis quote at the end of your posts: He also believed in purgatory - as did his protestant Anglican Church.