What is PROPITIATION?

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Scripture tells us that Christ is the propitiation for our sins, and the whole world seems to disagree on just what this might mean.

Just looking at the [Latin] roots forces us to understand it as being something that is FOR PITY [pro-piti-ation]. So how to get pity...??

And in the fallen state of the living dead that those in Adam are, one way to get pity is to be punished so hard and so much and become so pitiful that the one punishing the victim finally takes a look at the inert body of the offender agonizing in blood and pain and then feels remorse, and then takes pity on him or her...

So that the worldly understanding is one of remorse for punishment inflicted. Battered spouses know that the most tender and intimate moments they have with their abusers are the times they have just after getting beat up - often on the following morning...

Then, there is other mercy that is not worldly oriented... Because mercy and pity are pretty much the same word in Greek, and the Greek hILASMOS is the real word that is being translated, and this term is closely related to the Elohim... And the MERCY seat of the Ark of the wandering Israelites...

And indeed, the Publican, before the throne in the synagogue, would only beat his breast in self abasement and cry out "Have mercy on me a sinner!" [Eleison me ton hamarton!] And it is this 'propitiation' that Christ effected upon the Cross, for God will have mercy upon His Son, and those in Him... For Christ to be our propitiation means that He is our means of attaining mercy...

He did indeed take upon Himself the fallenness of our condition, and in it did not sin, but was born, grew up, and died, under the Law. Following His death and resurrection, He was no longer under the Law, [as those IN Him are not under the Law, yet exceed the Law in righteousness], and in Him, in His holy Body, we find the mercy we need, that He directs, to overcome our sins.

Now every act of Christ sanctified in Him what He acted upon. Hence when Christ was baptized, baptism changed in Him... When Christ fasted, fasting in Him changed... When Christ prayed, prayer in Him changed... So that for those in Him who have been baptized, who pray, and who fast, their baptism, prayer and fasting are different from those who are baptized, pray and fast outside of Him.

In the same way, perhaps we can see the suffering of the Christ...

For by His never having sinned, even in the face of the greatest of temptations, and indeed in the face of ALL the temptations that humanity in the flesh has to face, He overcame the world, and when He voluntarily ascended the cross, His suffering there sanctified suffering in Him, so that for those in Him, suffering for holy things is holy... And we all know the verse where Paul tells us he suffered greatly for the Church, the Body of Christ...

And we are called to follow Christ...

And indeed, our suffering attracts the grace of God...

A story comes out of Russia under the USSR. Where a priest with a wife and three small children was told late one fall that he would be picked up and sent to a labor camp in the north, where nobody who went there was evere heard from again... [the Gulag]...

And he worried for his wife and children...

And on his way out of services, a skinny old wrinkled up woman was walking by him, an old and pious Orthodox woman, and he stopped her, and asked her if she would pray for him, because he was being sent north to a camp, and his wife and children would have no one to take care of them...

The old lady said "Yes, Father."

And the following morning, before the rise of dawn, the priest was making his way to Church to do the service of Orthros [Matins - morning services], and as he was walking along the road, he saw the old woman standing in the sewage ditch with raw sewage running over her bare legs up to the knees, where she held her dress to keep it from getting wet in the near freezing weather...

She was praying...

She had been praying all night...

And the priest stopped, and said to her "Olga! What are you DOING???"

And she stopped praying in astonishment, and her eyes opened, and she smiled at him. And she said: "Father, you asked me to pray for you. It is the first time that you have ever asked me to do so. And I know that you did not ask me to pray for you for yourself, but for your wife and for your children, the three small ones... And I wanted to make sure that God would hear my prayers for you, so I came here, and prayed, from when you asked me to do so..."

The papers that were needed to pick up that priest and take him to Siberia were somehow lost, that week, and he was never bothered by the authorities again...

That was an ascetic prayer of the heart out of holy love in Christ, right there in a raw sewage ditch along a road in a remote small village community in Russia in the 50s... Christ suffered and died on the cross that we should be able to pray like that in Him, for in His suffering, He prayed upon the Cross, and gave us Life, and brought us the Great Mercy...

Himself.

We praise Thee...
We bless Thee...
We worship Thee...
We glorify Thee...

For Thy Great Mercy...

Arsenios [the great needer of mercy]

[smaller]

Propitiate: To please God with a sacrifice

I thought this had already been done George?

[Vivian]

Jesus did not have need of a sacrifice when He forgave the sins of those He healed.

He was able to forgive, freeing the individual from any possible punishment due from God without the actual shedding of physical blood. And so can we not then say that contained in His forgiveness was something that resulted in the assuagemant of any need for punishment or God imposed consequences?

Can it be that our understanding of propitiation, sin and the resulting debt, and forgiveness is lacking?

That somehow in the forgiveness Jesus gave without the shedding of actual physical blood is the sufficiency to stay any punishment/consequence of the sin?

I feel that arsenios is on to something here and perhaps these words are also meant for us...

If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent.


vivian

[infide]

Scripture tells us that Christ is the propitiation for our sins, and the whole world seems to disagree on just what this might mean.

Just looking at the [Latin] roots forces us to understand it as being something that is FOR PITY [pro-piti-ation]. So how to get pity...??

In every definition I have ever seen for propitiation, the word carries the specific nuance that wrath is being overcome by whatever the particular offering is. You should check the etymology of the word because the English "pity" is not in there (though, in a sense that makes sense, but not from the etymology) - the transition from Latin is this:

propitiationem (an atonement) <--- propitiare (render favorable) <--- pro- (forward) + petere (go to) like petition

Additionally, there is some indication that an early form of the word was propitiatorium (the mercy seat, place of atonement).

The word "pity" comes rather from the word "piety".

Then, there is other mercy that is not worldly oriented... Because mercy and pity are pretty much the same word in Greek, and the Greek hILASMOS is the real word that is being translated, and this term is closely related to the Elohim... And the MERCY seat of the Ark of the wandering Israelites...

I just saw that you hit on what I said above. I checked the mercy/pity thing out, and found that its kind of mixed opinions. older lexicons have "eleeo" meaning both "to have mercy for" and "to have pity for" but newer ones never translate it regarding pity, but reserve that for "splagchnizomai". This may have to do with the evolving use of the word "pity" in English. Pity may have had different connotations back in the eras of King James translators.

peace,
jd

[Rdr. Arsenios]

In every definition I have ever seen for propitiation, the word carries the specific nuance that wrath is being overcome by whatever the particular offering is. You should check the etymology of the word because the English "pity" is not in there (though, in a sense that makes sense, but not from the etymology) - the transition from Latin is this:

propitiationem (an atonement) <--- propitiare (render favorable) <--- pro- (forward) + petere (go to) like petition

Additionally, there is some indication that an early form of the word was propitiatorium (the mercy seat, place of atonement).

Well, so much for my theory of the Latin etymology of this word...

So that by the roots, it means an "asking foreward", which with God would be an "asking upward"?? As in a "petition unto..."

The word "pity" comes rather from the word "piety".

THAT is so Orthodox you can set your square by it!

I just saw that you hit on what I said above. I checked the mercy/pity thing out, and found that its kind of mixed opinions. older lexicons have "eleeo" meaning both "to have mercy for" and "to have pity for" but newer ones never translate it regarding pity, but reserve that for "splagchnizomai". This may have to do with the evolving use of the word "pity" in English. Pity may have had different connotations back in the eras of King James translators.

I first ran across it in Attic Greek, where the goddess Athena would take pity on someone who was trying hard to imitate the gods in heroic ways, and when that happened, she would infuse him with power against which no man could stand... And then, when she would withdraw, he was left on his own again, and could be defeated... With the result that pity and mercy were one idea even then, and both meant the affording unto a mortal of divine gifts of ability...

The term splagchnizomai [enguttenizing] means empathy, and can mean sympathy, but entails co-suffering... Which is why I think it was Timothy whom Paul described as having such a sweetness of character as to "ease/relieve the empathies" of the Saints... But you can see the difference, in that his easing of their empathies is one mercy that is just a function of his being sweet, and the enguttednesses themselves, of the saints, is an EXTENSION, by them, of mercy... To those with whom they empathize, for it is in this action that they help give birth into Christ, and help bear the burdens, one of another... This is what holy Fathers do... And most do it without words, and without outward gestures... All inward and spiritual... Though some might say a word or two...

If we are willing to voluntarily endure patiently our sufferings, God will take pity on us, and extend His graciousness unto us, and have mercy upon us, and upon those for whom we ask His intercession... That is why Paul prayed for the Church, and asked for prayers... Christianity is intercessional... But not in some "rational-emotive" way - as in "I FEEL for ya, Bro!"...

Arsenios

[Vivian]

Well, so much for my theory of the Latin etymology of this word...

So that by the roots, it means an "asking foreward", which with God would be an "asking upward"?? As in a "petition unto..."



THAT is so Orthodox you can set your square by it!


I first ran across it in Attic Greek, where the goddess Athena would take pity on someone who was trying hard to imitate the gods in heroic ways, and when that happened, she would infuse him with power against which no man could stand... And then, when she would withdraw, he was left on his own again, and could be defeated... With the result that pity and mercy were one idea even then, and both meant the affording unto a mortal of divine gifts of ability...

The term splagchnizomai [enguttenizing] means empathy, and can mean sympathy, but entails co-suffering... Which is why I think it was Timothy whom Paul described as having such a sweetness of character as to "ease/relieve the empathies" of the Saints... But you can see the difference, in that his easing of their empathies is one mercy that is just a function of his being sweet, and the enguttednesses themselves, of the saints, is an EXTENSION, by them, of mercy... To those with whom they empathize, for it is in this action that they help give birth into Christ, and help bear the burdens, one of another... This is what holy Fathers do... And most do it without words, and without outward gestures... All inward and spiritual... Though some might say a word or two...

If we are willing to voluntarily endure patiently our sufferings, God will take pity on us, and extend His graciousness unto us, and have mercy upon us, and upon those for whom we ask His intercession... That is why Paul prayed for the Church, and asked for prayers... Christianity is intercessional... But not in some "rational-emotive" way - as in "I FEEL for ya, Bro!"...

Arsenios

Good words, arsenios.

And so why is it then assumed that the propitiation imparted by Jesus on our behalf was His death on the cross?

From what has been shared thus far, can we not see that is was Jesus' Mercy/Grace that is our propitiation?

And that we too can serve as He did, we can offer ourselves as living sacrifices for our brothers, even to the extent of laying down our physical lives as He layed down not only His physical life, but also His spiritual Life? Allowing Himself to fall from the Divine into incarnation?


vivian

[Rdr. Arsenios]

And so why is it then assumed that the propitiation imparted by Jesus on our behalf was His death on the cross?

Because by this voluntary act, Christ offered Himself up to the Father. And He did so AFTER having overcome the world. So that the actual pain and agony of the cross unto his death was only of the world, which He had already overcome...

And the only way, really, to offer Himself up to God is by His departure from the earth - "Do not touch Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father..." And this was AFTER he had trampled down death by [His] death and burst the bonds of Hades, having gone down into the earth, to the deepest parts of it, releasing those imprisoned therein... So He died, went to Hell, destroyed it's power of death, came back to earth, and ascended to the Heavens..

You see, He took with Him to the Father His unglorified yet sinless flesh, and returned to the earth, to many, in that very flesh, as the Scripture records.

Now that His death, whereby he departed from the earth, entered Hades, and ascended to the Father, was upon the Cross was because by ascending that cross, and its pain, having overcome the world, he sanctified its sufferings for those who were to follow, that they should attain mercy...

"If anyone is willing to follow after Me, let him first deny himself, take up his own cross, and be following Me..."

That is the great call to salvation...

And anyone CAN follow Christ, IF he is willing...

It is not just for the preselected...

But for anyone willing...

Arsenios

[smaller]

George, perhaps you can delineate how your Eastern Orthodox "works" = (X favor from God/I won't suppose on what X consists of) formula is any different than that of the Islamic fundamentalist version of sacrifice yourself (works) = receive (X) favor from God formula or perhaps even the Jewish formula of "works" (wail at the wall for example) = restoration of Israel formula?

[Vivian]

Because by this voluntary act, Christ offered Himself up to the Father. And He did so AFTER having overcome the world. So that the actual pain and agony of the cross unto his death was only of the world, which He had already overcome...

And the only way, really, to offer Himself up to God is by His departure from the earth - "Do not touch Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father..." And this was AFTER he had trampled down death by [His] death and burst the bonds of Hades, having gone down into the earth, to the deepest parts of it, releasing those imprisoned therein... So He died, went to Hell, destroyed it's power of death, came back to earth, and ascended to the Heavens..

You see, He took with Him to the Father His unglorified yet sinless flesh, and returned to the earth, to many, in that very flesh, as the Scripture records.

Now that His death, whereby he departed from the earth, entered Hades, and ascended to the Father, was upon the Cross was because by ascending that cross, and its pain, having overcome the world, he sanctified its sufferings for those who were to follow, that they should attain mercy...

"If anyone is willing to follow after Me, let him first deny himself, take up his own cross, and be following Me..."

That is the great call to salvation...

And anyone CAN follow Christ, IF he is willing...

It is not just for the preselected...

But for anyone willing...

Arsenios

Yes, I too feel that this aspect of Jesus' purpose was the greatest of gifts to God's lost children. My own deeper understanding is just beginning, and for me the words and definitions used on tweb are a bit confusing and thus not quite fitting.

Jesus' sacrifice was not His physical death on the cross, but His fall into spiritual death. The death that He overcame then, is not physical death, but spiritual death, overcoming Satan, as a man (in physical life and death), thus opening up a gateway for all of the fallen into Life.

For those in Life, physical birth and death are nothing, as Jesus showed us in His miracles and in His own death. It is Lucifer who traps us in fearing our own physical death and thus seeking physical immortality. Jesus and His disciples taught us to give no thought or concern for our bodies or tents that don us in this world. They are of no importance.

Jesus' descent into the depths of Hades confirms this the greatest of gifts. Hades is the realm of spiritual death, and in His descent to the depths, bursting the bonds there (the bonds of spiritual death) and paving the way to free all captives, He shows us that it is not just the dead living in this world for which He died spiritually. That it is not just from the physical death that humanity experiences that He came to liberated God's fallen children.

He died spiritually and then overcame the god of all fallen realms. In this overcoming, He prepared a gateway for us, one that we can find if we are willing to follow Him while still alive in the physical.



vivian

[Tercel]

"Propitiation" is a pointless and silly word to use because most people don't have a clue what it means. As for studying its Latin roots, that's a complete waste of time because, clearly, the Bible wasn't written in Latin.

If you want to do something useful then study the meaning of the Greek and Hebrews words that are getting translated "propitiation", and think what the word really means as a modern English word that people actually understand.

The Greek hileos and variants, are what is used in the Bible:
hileos:
Mt 16:22 And Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You."
Heb 8:12 "For I will be merciful to their iniquities, And I will remember their sins no more."

hilasmos:
1Jo 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
1Jo 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

hilasterion:
Ro 3:25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
Heb 9:5 And above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat; but of these things we cannot now speak in detail.

hilaskomai:
Lu 18:13 "But the tax-gatherer, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!'
Heb 2:17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

The translators seem to alternate between "propitiation" and "mercy". In the Old Testament, the word is used to refer to the "mercy seat" on the ark of the covenant. So, in general it is fair to say that the Greek word group is strongly connected with mercy (specifically God's mercy). It seems it would be simpler if instead of using "propitiation" (a word few people today really understand), we just used variants of "mercy" to translate the terms involved.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Jesus' sacrifice was not His physical death on the cross, but His fall into spiritual death.

Dear Vivian -

It is not the teaching of the Orthodox Church that Christ fell into spiritual death... He voluntarily submitted Himself in obedience to the Father to the shameful death of the Cross. He did not fall, He WENT... And not into spiritual death, but into Hades, and destroyed the strangle-hold that death has upon the fallen...

As He said, I have the power to lay down My Life, and to take it up again...

And we are called to follow Him, for in Him, when we lay down our lives in repentance and obedience, He raises them up again, not only in the last day, but even now...

Perhaps we are having a terminological issue - For the Orthodox, spiritual death is committing oneself to sin...

Arsenios

[infide]

"Propitiation" is a pointless and silly word to use because most people don't have a clue what it means. As for studying its Latin roots, that's a complete waste of time because, clearly, the Bible wasn't written in Latin.

Its not pointless if you realize for a few moments that the ENGLISH word comes from Latin roots. Since our English words are what we use in English speaking, Exploring their meaning and development is helpful in understanding the match or mismatch between the English and the Greek words used.

Trust me, Im not advocating translating from the Vulgate.

doh.

If you want to do something useful then study the meaning of the Greek and Hebrews words that are getting translated "propitiation", and think what the word really means as a modern English word that people actually understand.

The Greek hileos and variants, are what is used in the Bible:
hileos:
Mt 16:22 And Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You."
Heb 8:12 "For I will be merciful to their iniquities, And I will remember their sins no more."

hilasmos:
1Jo 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
1Jo 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

hilasterion:
Ro 3:25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
Heb 9:5 And above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat; but of these things we cannot now speak in detail.

hilaskomai:
Lu 18:13 "But the tax-gatherer, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!'
Heb 2:17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

The translators seem to alternate between "propitiation" and "mercy". In the Old Testament, the word is used to refer to the "mercy seat" on the ark of the covenant. So, in general it is fair to say that the Greek word group is strongly connected with mercy (specifically God's mercy). It seems it would be simpler if instead of using "propitiation" (a word few people today really understand), we just used variants of "mercy" to translate the terms involved.

And what happenned on the mercy seat? something about blood sprinking for the propitiation of the sins of the people?

Certainly the idea of mercy is there in propitiation, because the atonement is from and by God's mercy in Christ.

peace,
jd

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Propitiate: To please God with a sacrifice

I thought this had already been done George?

I thought so too...

And I look at all the lives committed to sin...

Do you think Christ's sacrifice was simply not enough for ALL of us, but only for a very select few? A pre-select few? And that this is why people are lost?

Or do you think that His sacrifice is sufficient for all humanity, and that the reason so many are not saved is because they are unwilling to receive it?

"And this is the judgement, that the Light came to the darkness, and the darkness received it not, because their deeds were evil..."

Because their deeds were evil, they were unwilling to receive the Light...

And for those who DO receive the Light, we receive it because our deeds are evil...

Same reasoning...
Different willing...
Man's responsibility...

God, as you say, has already been pleased with the sacrifice for us that His Son has already made.

The re-memory of that sacrifice, not in blood and flesh from veins and bones, but in bread and wine that Christ used and instructed us to use, this is what Christians do, in part, to receive that Light...

And much more as well...

And that is why, in the Church, we sing, each Pascha, [and oftener]

Come!

Receive the Light...
That is never overtaken...
By night...

And glorify Christ...
Who is Risen...
From the dead...

This is our joy, dear smaller...

Available - Offered - to all...

No exclusions...

Arsenios

[Vivian]

Dear Vivian -

It is not the teaching of the Orthodox Church that Christ fell into spiritual death... He voluntarily submitted Himself in obedience to the Father to the shameful death of the Cross. He did not fall, He WENT... And not into spiritual death, but into Hades, and destroyed the strangle-hold that death has upon the fallen...

As He said, I have the power to lay down My Life, and to take it up again...

And we are called to follow Him, for in Him, when we lay down our lives in repentance and obedience, He raises them up again, not only in the last day, but even now...

Perhaps we are having a terminological issue - For the Orthodox, spiritual death is committing oneself to sin...

Arsenios

Hello arsenios.

Being spiritually dead is suffering the consequences of our own original sin, that sin that led to our fall. For Jesus and any who offer themselves as mediators on behalf of humanity, begin spiritually dead is not a consequence to sin, but a free will choice offered in the Greatest of Love [there is no greater Love than to lay down one's life for his brother] to serve, falling into this world, being born here in human flesh offering oneself as a ransom or sacrifice to lost humanity.

This world and everything in it is spiritually dead - cut off from the divine realms, the Tree of Life, having been once connected through our pristine and pure earth that was then known as the Garden of Eden.

We can though enter in and find Spiritual Life while we live or upon our physical death, as Jesus did, not for His own redemption, but to show us the Way.

And so though we are born spiritually dead - which using your words I would define as committing ourselves to a fallen world, separated from God, either through our own sin or through our desire to serve - we can find Life as Jesus did.

And because of the gateway that Jesus opened for us, through His descent to the depths and the ascent to the Heights, we can find Life even though we do not walk a sinless life as He did. Through His Righteousness, He is able to grant us forgiveness for our sins, purging our soul of the chains or markings that result from selfish thoughts, words, and deeds. But He cannot birth the New Man within us. This can only happen if we surrender to the workings of the Holy Spirit and fully repent turning away from this world and all selfishness.


vivian

[Tercel]

Its not pointless if you realize for a few moments that the ENGLISH word comes from Latin roots. Since our English words are what we use in English speaking, Exploring their meaning and development is helpful in understanding the match or mismatch between the English and the Greek words used.

I don't use "propitiation" in my English speaking, and neither does anyone else I know. Exploring its meaning and development is thus not helpful at all... it is not a word that is used in normal English, and hence it is not a word that should be used in any English Bible translation.

As far as I'm concerned, saying "propitiation" is about as meaningful as saying "yuokjlsfanlg". It's not a word with any meaning to people today. The only reason I even know what it means is because I've wasted my time reading idiotic debates about whether it should be translated "propitiation" or "expiation" (another stupid non-word). In general people seem to mean "appeasement" when they say "propitiation"... so why do they not say what they mean??

And what happenned on the mercy seat? something about blood sprinking for the propitiation of the sins of the people?

What happened on the mercy seat was the priest imploring God to be merciful and God granting mercy.