What is PROPITIATION?

[Howie]

"You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Luke 3:7 NIV

"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation." Matt 23

And to those who complained "Why US?" He told them:

Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way?I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."

They knew what He was talking about and it wasn't about unfortunate accidents. It had simply come time for this wrath to fall.

And about 30 years after He spoke those words it did come on them.

Thank you for taking the time to cite some verses I requested.

The first verse, Luke 3:7 does not quote the words of Jesus, it is a rendition of Isaiah.

The second quote appears to be Jesus pointing out a specific instance of his teaching that "you reap what you sow". Nowhere in those verses of Matthew 23 it there anything about God’s wrath or anger. There are divine laws. If we sin, there are consequences. That is very different than “the wrath of God” which seems to me to be much more the God of the OT than the God of the Gospels.

It is also interesting to note that the words of Jesus in Matthew 23 are directed as those who have twisted the teachings of Moses for their own earthly gain (power, money, prestige, etc.) Jesus was more critical of those who mutilated the teachings of Moses and those who abused the sacredness of the Temple than he was at whores and even the Romans who crucified him. I think that makes very clear what he thought.

[Howie]

I simply meant it as the contidition of anyone who is "unplugged" [so to speak] form the Source of Life. I mean, Adam's 'consciousness' was still 'connected' to God in that he was aware of God, he talked with God, and he I think worshipped God, and taught that worship to Cain and Able... I guess I am just a tad uneasy with the consciousness part of it...

I distinguish between “awareness” and “consciousness”. I can be aware that the mouse can’t hurt me, but I still jump on a chair when I see one in the room. It is what I believe in my consciousness that dictates my reaction. I can sort of accept the term “unplugged” from the Source of Existence, even though we cannot be “unplugged” from the Source of Existence because then we would no longer exist... but I think we may both be guilty of playing with words. I am trying to finds precise words that communicate that when what we believe is not in line with the truth of the Source of Life (God), the sin of that belief, of its own energy, hurls us into Hell. It is a consequence that cannot be avoided.

In the following paragraphs that you write I need to separate fact from assumption, conjecture, etc. I will do so using curt words. Please do not mistake that for rudeness of disrespect.

One fly in the ointment here is that the tree, with its fruit, of the knowledge of good AND evil was planted smack dab plumb dead CENTER in the Garden, together with the Tree of Life. And it was a beautiful tree, with pleasant fruit. Man [Adam] had no way to discern that its ingestion would kill him.

Cite verses that support that The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was:
a. “planted smack dab plumb dead CENTER in the Garden,”
b. “a beautiful tree, with pleasant fruit” (assumption being that it was more desirable than other fruit and other trees)

And that is why God instructed him not to eat of it, and why...

Cite the verse.

That was the serpent's tree, placed there with the serpent, so as to shame the serpent, by his seeing God's new creation, Man, and seeing the favor Man found with God.

\Cite the verse.

For the serpent had fallen greatly...And needed repentance too... And in his anger at his humiliation, he attacked man, and brought him willingly into his subjugation, through the tempting of Eve...

Cite the verses for all these different statements.

There was a problem in the heavens before the creation of man, in the fall of Lucifer, and God created man to correct that problem, because Lucifer freely fell in his pride... And God made man free to fall, and now freely, in his continuing freedom, will save him...

Cite the verses.

Evil is the absence of good, and this happens when one turns away from God, Who is the Source of all Good...

Not the source of ALL?

The belief systems we cling to are not what is evil, but our being turned from God, and that is why repentance is salvific...

Jesus teaching says other wise. As we believe so it is done. You know the tree by the fruit. You know the tree (faith) by the fruit (consequence), the belief being the branch the fruit grows from.

Adam's eyes indeed WERE opened upon eating of that tree, and he indeed DID know good and evil, and this knowing is the same knowing that signifies his sexual relations with Eve, and involves a unity of being with the thing known... So that man now knew evil, for he now had evil within him, and was disconnected from God... And connected to the serpent...

In the Genesis 1 and 2 accounts of the Creation and the Fall, there is no mention of God creating Satan or evil or a devil or anything like that. In fact, the accounts state just the opposite: “God looked at all he created and said it is good.” Again that is a stunning statement repeated in Genesis more than once. Why do we fight so hard against that simple statement, “God looked at all he created and said it is good.”

But God did not let the serpent have the victory, and the way of redemption was to have God the Son become man, a part of creation, but without sin, and thereby destroy the power of death that held mankind in its grasp. So that in this, mankind who turns from evil to good freely will find salvation in the Body of the Son, which was sacrificed for them...

We haven’t gotten out of the Garden of Eden yet… aren’t we a little ahead of ourselves?

We live in duality, and we are to scorn the flesh, and embrace the cross of suffering, that we live triumphantly in the Heavenly Kingdom on earth... We are called to affirm our duality in this life, and embrace the good, indeed the Good!

Again, I am hoping we can focus on coming to an understanding of one thing at a time. Otherwise everything just becomes vain eloquence on both our parts.

The eastern Church does not begin with the philosophical concept of duality, being established in the Garden, and to be rejected in the flesh, but instead teaches us to embrace suffering in the flesh, and tribulation in the world, that we enter the heavenly kingdom here, and in the life of the Age to come...

The eastern Church was not the Eastern Orthodox Church. But I fear that this subject may take us much father a field than I care to go at this point.

Goodness! Are we off topic? Isn't this my thread?? Isn't it about propitiation? Have I forgotten something important again??

Perhaps we both have, but c’est la vie!

Lord have Mercy!!

He better. I count on it!

All the best.

[RanRan]

There are divine laws. If we sin, there are consequences. That is very different than “the wrath of God” which seems to me to be much more the God of the OT than the God of the Gospels.

Exactly. Then how do you account for that change?

You expect God to be just. The idea of purgatory, that there is scale to these consequences from bad to less bad, as though God were grading on a curve, does not mesh with Christ's teaching of sheep and goats, light and darkness, life and death. There is no gray area, no curve.

Lowering the bar, or creating purgatory does not solve the problem of how God can be Just and be Holy. How did God solve that problem?

Who killed Christ?

[Rdr. Arsenios]

I am trying to finds precise words that communicate that when what we believe is not in line with the truth of the Source of Life (God), the sin of that belief, of its own energy, hurls us into Hell. It is a consequence that cannot be avoided.

Then you think that it is the alignment of our beliefs with God's truths that either aligns us with God, or hurls us into hell. Misalignment is sin, and of its own energy hurls us unavoidably into hell.

That would seem to play hob with a personal God... And would make repentance an alignment of belief with God's truth... It just sounds odd...

In the following paragraphs that you write I need to separate fact from assumption, conjecture, etc. I will do so using curt words. Please do not mistake that for rudeness of disrespect.

Most of that is from a theologoumenon of the Orthodox faith that has been put for by Fr. Seraphim Rose on the Garden of Eden... It is not in any way dogma, and involves opinion that is not held by all everywhere and at all times...

Cite verses that support that The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was:
a. “planted smack dab plumb dead CENTER in the Garden,”
b. “a beautiful tree, with pleasant fruit” (assumption being that it was more desirable than other fruit and other trees)

Those two ARE in the Bible - Genesis - You want the specific verses? Ok - Just a sec... Here we are: Gen 2:9 "the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil."

And 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die

And 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired ...

[quote]Cite the verse.

\Cite the verse.

Cite the verses for all these different statements.

Cite the verses.[quote]
None of these are directly supported...

Not the source of ALL?

Instead of all good? Sure... As long as evil is understood as being a deprivation of the good...

Quote: Originally posted by George Blaisdell
The belief systems we cling to are not what is evil, but our being turned from God, and that is why repentance is salvific...

Jesus teaching says other wise. As we believe so it is done. You know the tree by the fruit. You know the tree (faith) by the fruit (consequence), the belief being the branch the fruit grows from.

Whu 'Otherwise"?

In the Genesis 1 and 2 accounts of the Creation and the Fall, there is no mention of God creating Satan or evil or a devil or anything like that. In fact, the accounts state just the opposite: “God looked at all he created and said it is good.” Again that is a stunning statement repeated in Genesis more than once. Why do we fight so hard against that simple statement, “God looked at all he created and said it is good.”

Because it is the freedom, yet not the act, to turn away from God that is a treasure...

Again, I am hoping we can focus on coming to an understanding of one thing at a time. Otherwise everything just becomes vain eloquence on both our parts.

Vaineloquence!

The eastern Church was not the Eastern Orthodox Church. But I fear that this subject may take us much father a field than I care to go at this point.

No need...

The basic idea is that there is another, and perhaps more, accounting of the events that you offer an accounting for, that the accounting you wish to give is not necessarily the only possible one, and that perhaps this whole way of approaching the faith as a belief system is what is wrong in the west...

Arsenios

[Howie]

Then you think that it is the alignment of our beliefs with God's truths that either aligns us with God, or hurls us into hell. Misalignment is sin, and of its own energy hurls us unavoidably into hell.

It is one of the few understandings that reconcile the teachings of Moses and the teachings of Jesus. In the years after Moses, YHWH was misinterpreted perhaps because of man’s need to make the concept of God put forth in Exodus 3 “controllable” (for lack of a better word at the moment). And today, this picture mankind paints of God as some chubby guy with a long white beard, a sheet covering his privates (barely), lounging up there in clouds, scratching his belly and saying, “Think I’ll create me a world today…” is a most horrific distortion. It is exactly what Jesus preached against.

Moses and Jesus are the two most brilliant teachers of the Bible. They are without parallel. Both understood and communicated clearer than any of the other Biblica authors the nature and essence of God. They also are in total and complete agreement with each others’ understanding. Moses simply looked at God through the lens of God’s laws and Jesus viewed God through the lens of God’s love. Truth be told none of the other teachers or writers in the entire Bible can hold a candle to these two.

That would seem to play hob with a personal God... And would make repentance an alignment of belief with God's truth... It just sounds odd...

It may sound odd because it is so shrouded by the fog of modern conceits. How much more personal can God be than to exist within us? To be the power that makes our hearts beat and our eyes see and our ears hear and our brains comprehend? How much more personal? What do we want, fat daddies in the sky?

Most of that is from a theologoumenon of the Orthodox faith that has been put for by Fr. Seraphim Rose on the Garden of Eden... It is not in any way dogma, and involves opinion that is not held by all everywhere and at all times...

Hieromonk Seraphim! Know him well – not personally of course. A brilliant simplifier – a big one for reminding us to take the mote from our own eye before we criticize others vision. He is up there with Thomas ‘a Kempis whom I think you know I respect so deeply. His understanding of his spiritual path was profound. In the 1980’s I read the book Genesis and Orthodoxy (or is it Orthodoxy and Genesis?) I am not sure. It was based on his writings and was inspirational. His appreciation of the fact that the Genesis accounts of creation are fundamental to understanding Christian faith was very supportive of my research at the time. He loses some credibility because of his stance that Genesis should be taken both literally and symbolically, but rather than critique that conflict, I chose to focus on the symbolic interpretation. Though he and I part ways on the meanings, he is none the less someone whose thoughts and words I take very seriously.

Finally, I hope not to get bogged down in a discussion of Hieromonk Seraphim, but rather see if we can come to some mutual understanding based on the scriptures themselves.

Those two ARE in the Bible - Genesis - You want the specific verses? Ok - Just a sec... Here we are: Gen 2:9 "the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil."

And 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die

You prefer to translate “tavek” as middle or center… I prefer “within”… nitpicking on my part. On reflection, I do agree that symbolically The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is central.

And 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired ...

I had assumed that there were other trees in the garden that were “good for food”, but even here I will accept this interpretation.

None of these are directly supported...

so, let's leave them out.

Instead of all good? Sure... As long as evil is understood as being a deprivation of the good...

And exactly where is this place where there exists the “deprivation of the good”? Is there a place in the universe that God did not create? Is there a space in the universe where God does not exist? I believe that it is important that we be specific here. I am not being facetious here. It is an important question.

The belief systems we cling to are not what is evil, but our being turned from God, and that is why repentance is salvific...

Jesus teaching says other wise. As we believe so it is done. You know the tree by the fruit. You know the tree (faith) by the fruit (consequence), the belief being the branch the fruit grows from.

Whu 'Otherwise"?

Because it is the belief that manifests as action and it is the belief that sheds light on the condition of our faith. Jesus does not criticize actions (note the prostitute), he criticizes beliefs (note the Scribes and Pharisees as well as the rich man). He clearly states that the creative power of man lies in his faith and beliefs. Jesus’ father is always there, ready to embrace us, support us, sustain us, but we must believe and have faith. Jesus said that we could do everything he could -- and even more -- if we had faith. I grant that this is not a complete concept – truth is, my heart isn’t in this part of our dialogue right now because it seems that again we are ahead of ourselves.

Because it is the freedom, yet not the act, to turn away from God that is a treasure...

I think we both believe that. The question has to do with what you term “the act” of turning away. What exactly is that “act”? I humbly suggest that it believing in a world of duality (good and evil), a belief that separates us from the truth of the creator – which is what God said about creation: “all is good”.

Vaineloquence!

Guilty!

The basic idea is that there is another, and perhaps more, accounting of the events that you offer an accounting for, that the accounting you wish to give is not necessarily the only possible one, and that perhaps this whole way of approaching the faith as a belief system is what is wrong in the west...

I can understand the dislike of the word “system”, however, “belief” is central to the teachings of Jesus. I pose a very simple idea. “God looked at all he created and said it is good.” When man sees (or believes) other than that, he has unplugged himself from the Source of Life and cannot experience that oneness with the Father that Jesus speaks of, cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven, cannot embrace the joy and wonder of existence the way a child does. We are left to fear where our next meal will come from, what we will wear to protect ourselves from the elements, and whether or not we will have enough water to drink. “Look at the birds of the sky they neither reap nor sow and their heavenly Father takes care of the. What makes you think you are less than one of these?” Jesus said this to the descendents of Adam and Eve. Did he mean what he said? I think so.

All the best.

[Howie]

Exactly. Then how do you account for that change?

Do you mean a change from the interpretation of God as “wrathful” – gleaned from the OT -- to the understanding of God Jesus taught? I am not sure of your question.

You expect God to be just. The idea of purgatory, that there is scale to these consequences from bad to less bad, as though God were grading on a curve, does not mesh with Christ's teaching of sheep and goats, light and darkness, life and death. There is no gray area, no curve.

I fully and totally agree. There is no middle ground and Jesus was (and is) very clear on that.

Lowering the bar, or creating purgatory does not solve the problem of how God can be Just and be Holy. How did God solve that problem?

Bear with me as I use the law of gravity as a metaphor for a law of God. If you and I go up to a roof and both step off, gravity does not say, “Well, RanRan said his prayers this morning, so I’ll make sure he falls more softly than Howie.” Or, “Howie stole from his job yesterday, so I will make sure Howie falls hard.” The law of gravity, like the laws of God have unavoidable consequences no matter how holy we are before we break them. And the love of God extends to all of us equally no matter how sinful we may have been before we repent. It is understanding the laws of God, understanding the divine consequences of breaching them, and the joy of embracing them, as well as understanding what true forgiveness, repentance and remission are that is our main stumbling block.

With regard to purgatory, I believe that the concepts of purgatory and limbo are human constructs that fill human needs and have little if anything to do with spiritual law and divine judgment (consequences). Jesus was very clear: “We reap what we sow” – all of us, without discrimination; “As we believe so it is done” – for all of us – without exception.

Who killed Christ?

Maybe that is for another thread. I do not understands its relationship to this one... unless you are referring to each of us doing that when we turn our back on God in our daily life.

All the best.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Howie...

A now dead friend of mine, Harry Balmer, wrote a short tract called "30 Minutes to Enlightenment" in which he excoriated, as psychopathic, the dualistic world view you describe, and said that turning away from all dualism, and embracing everything, no matter what, would bring a person into harmony [alignment] with everything... I did my 30 minutes with his tract several times - And that was back when I believed in God, but still avoided Christians - And working with him, I talked with him a fair amount about it, for it was the tract he had been inspired to write after college, and it was the understanding that he lived his life by.

And it is your understanding as well... If I am getting you right...

And the fundamental notion is to never judge anything or anyone, and to be kind to everyone, even in a reprimand [or a thrashing!]

And the biggest thing that he was up against was that he said you had to be 'called' to it, that you could not teach it to someone, because nobody 'got' what the words meant. And he would explain for hours to young people working at his pizza parlor, and they would continue to not understand. "I think it is something you are just born different with, George... They just don't get it..." he would lament... [He had spent time in Greenwich Village in the 50s, loved jack kerouac, and on and on...]

So I understand that you want Moses and Jesus to be teaching non-judgementalism, and that as a reflection of a non-dualistic understanding of the nature of God's creation... Which God created all of, and which He pronounced 'good'... And if it is all good, then how, you ask, can there even BE evil? Evil is just an illusion that we have in our dualistic world view... And that if we become disillusioned of that illusion, we will find peace and salvation.

So have I got you right so far?

Arsenios

[Howie]

So I understand that you want Moses and Jesus to be teaching non-judgementalism, and that as a reflection of a non-dualistic understanding of the nature of God's creation... Which God created all of, and which He pronounced 'good'... And if it is all good, then how, you ask, can there even BE evil? Evil is just an illusion that we have in our dualistic world view... And that if we become disillusioned of that illusion, we will find peace and salvation.

So have I got you right so far?

First I would think that your friend and I would have had many a great time together over pizza and wine. Your story touched my soul. An off topic question – was your friend Italian?

Moses was understood God through divine laws. Jesus viewed God through the lens of divine love. Jesus’ teachings make no sense unless they rest on the shoulders of Moses’.

It is interesting how you put it: “I understand that you want Moses and Jesus to be teaching non-judgementalism, and that as a reflection of a non-dualistic understanding of the nature of God's creation...” It is not what I want. Jesus said it very clearly, “Judge not lest you be judged.” There are other passages in the Gospels where the translator uses the English word “judge” where the Greek word actually means to separate. We in the west confuse “consequences” with “punishment” or “judgment”. There are consequences for defying the laws of gravity and there are consequences to defying spiritual law. Gravity does not punish, we harm ourselves by defying its laws (see my post to RanRan).

With regard to your friends thought that one is just “born” with that understanding, he and I are on the same page. I came to my understanding through the study of the Gospels. I felt that it was mandatory that I come to an understanding of the teachings of Jesus. It took years because I was not satisfied with the pat answers I got to questions. However, since childhood I would get giddy whenever I connected with the fact that I am alive. I still do. What a gift this life is!

With regard to the possibility that others can’t come to understand it, I have found that others can. I have witnessed it. I have also seen that children already know it and if parents just support their child’s understanding and do not impose their own, that child’s faith and knowledge grows into a functioning understanding. That is why Jesus describes our inner light as being hidden under a shade – that shade is the shroud of our learned understanding covering the light of our inherent understanding – the God within us. Kierkegaard put it; “Let God be God in you.” Emerson said, “Get our bloated nothingness out of the way.” Lao-tzu says, “Before the compass was the circle. Before the ruler was the straight line.” That eastern school of thought that says, “You can’t learn anything you don’t already know.”

If the teachings of the law (Moses) are seen through the teachings of love (Jesus), a stunning picture of riveting clarity emerges. It is not my “want”; it is the gift of Jesus’ understanding.

Picture those twins who were joined at the head, rolling together, laughing, giggling as happy joined together as they are now that there are separated (some say more so). It is the “learned” understandings that adults bring, the kids just want to roll around: “Lest you be like a child you cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven.” “Judge not lest you be judged.” “As you believe, so it is done.” “Love God…” “Love your neighbor…” Love one another.” “Love your enemies… so that you may be children of Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.” “Look at the birds of the sky… What makes you think you are less than one of these?” Then re-examine Exodus 3, especially the Hebrew that is translated as “I AM THAT I AM”. The Hebrew word “hayah” is translated as past, present and future. In fact, it has no real tense; the tense is dictated by the context to a great degree. With that understanding of the Hebrew, the phrase translates in any number of ways, but there is an ancient understanding (still alive in Judaism) that it translates as I AM, WAS AND SHALL BE WHAT IS, WAS AND WILL BE… but enough for now, I stray…

[Rdr. Arsenios]

First I would think that your friend and I would have had many a great time together over pizza and wine. Your story touched my soul. An off topic question – was your friend Italian?

He was a teacher of Zen, thought that Christ 'had it' but that Christians do not, that Lao Tzu had it, but his followers do not, that the Budda had it, but that buddhists do not, and on and on...

He was a New Jersey native, had 4 kids, married a woman he met broke down on the highway, who also had 4 kids... Actually, they never married... Had one son together...

Not Italian that I know of - Name like Balmer?? I dunno... You and he would have gotten on famously... He knew how to intimidate, and raised a good family... Died of a heart attack fighting the fire that destroyed the Pizza Parlor - He'd be 71-2 these days - Did a lot of iron sculpture, but saw the ego involvement in doing shows, and bagged the whole thing for welding repairs on logging trucks. Always had a couple grand in his wallet, on a chain... Bearded with blue jeans, checkered shirt and sandals and a pony tail... Bad back and loved good food.

He thought that once you back off duality, you are then able to enter the esthetic of sensations, and always had jazz music going, and played drums, and taught dancing. He was a hoot! The aesthetic of living was for him the ultimate of experiencing non-duality, a kind of 'no-mind' entry into the multiple-leveled ongoingness of awareness sans-cognition... Because cognition necessarily differentiates this-not-this... Sexual relations had the same signification for him...

You and Harry would have enjoyed a lot together - It was the aesthetics of sensation that killed him... He would eat the cheese off pizza, to the weakening of his heart from WAY too much cholesterol, and carrying too much fat...

And he was a first class person in every respect...

Yet he did not know God as a Person...

Arsenios

[Howie]

George B:

Just from your post I will raise a chalice to him!

Yet he did not know God as a Person...

I don't quite get this statement.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

George B:

Just from your post I will raise a chalice to him!

He was my friend...

I don't quite get this statement.

He did not talk with God, and did not ask God for answers. he was given a great gift early in his life, and spent the rest of his life trying to account for it in worldly terms... He did not know God as a Person... He only knew his creation, and the movement thereof...

Siddhartha and all the works of Hesse were some of his favorite books...

I worked at that pizza place for 14 years...

Arsenios

[Howie]

Siddhartha and all the works of Hesse were some of his favorite books...

I love Hesse. Narcissus and Goldman has always held a special place for me.

I worked at that pizza place for 14 years...

I wonder... that pizza place may have been more of a temple than St. Patrick's up the Avenue.

He did not talk with God, and did not ask God for answers. he was given a great gift early in his life, and spent the rest of his life trying to account for it in worldly terms... He did not know God as a Person... He only knew his creation, and the movement thereof...

There is an old saying, “God made man in his own image and likeness and man returned the favor.” Perhaps God is not a “Person”. Are you open to that possibility? Do you really think that when Jesus taught us to pray to “Our Father who art in Heaven…” he was telling us to pray to a person? And that when he said, “The Kingdom of Heaven is within you!”, he meant that a little “Person” lived within us? Are we really separated by a metaphysical ocean, you and I, or only a semantic babbling brook?

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Do you really think that when Jesus taught us to pray to “Our Father who art in Heaven…” he was telling us to pray to a person? And that when he said, “The Kingdom of Heaven is within you!”, he meant that a little “Person” lived within us? Are we really separated by a metaphysical ocean, you and I, or only a semantic babbling brook?

Metaphysical ocean...

The very FIRST thing I knew, as an emerging athiest of my first 36 years, was the Person of God, calling me forth... If one does not know God as a Person, one does not know God. And that does not mean that God does not know them, but it does mean that they do not know God.

And yes, that Pizza Parlor - Village Pizza, [in Roslyn, WA] was its official moniker, and it still exists, btw, under new owners now - was indeed a kind of temple. The bond between Harry and me was immediate and final... I pray for him every day... But he did not know God as a person... I would even say that his was the greater faith, for I am faithless, and believe only what I know to be true... But then, he believed in sensation... And he would have loved you, at a gruff arms distance. He had an occassional pilgrim come across the country to see him... I love the man...

Arsenios

PS - I loved Hesse as well, thanks to Harry...

[Howie]

Metaphysical ocean...

The very FIRST thing I knew, as an emerging athiest of my first 36 years, was the Person of God, calling me forth... If one does not know God as a Person, one does not know God. And that does not mean that God does not know them, but it does mean that they do not know God.

And yes, that Pizza Parlor - Village Pizza, [in Roslyn, WA] was its official moniker, and it still exists, btw, under new owners now - was indeed a kind of temple. The bond between Harry and me was immediate and final... I pray for him every day... But he did not know God as a person... I would even say that his was the greater faith, for I am faithless, and believe only what I know to be true... But then, he believed in sensation... And he would have loved you, at a gruff arms distance. He had an occassional pilgrim come across the country to see him... I love the man...

Arsenios

PS - I loved Hesse as well, thanks to Harry...

Do you think that it is possible that some experience God as a person, others as nature, still others as a feeling? Is it possible (if I may personify God for a moment) that you experience God by touching God's finger while Harry touched God's nose – and perhaps I hang on by God’s beard? I am saying this with the deepest sincerity. Is it possible that God is larger than our individual brains can comprehend so that each of us is gifted with experiencing that of God which we can – no better and no worse than another’s experience of God?

All the best.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Do you think that it is possible that some experience God as a person, others as nature, still others as a feeling? Is it possible (if I may personify God for a moment) that you experience God by touching God's finger while Harry touched God's nose – and perhaps I hang on by God’s beard? I am saying this with the deepest sincerity. Is it possible that God is larger than our individual brains can comprehend so that each of us is gifted with experiencing that of God which we can – no better and no worse than another’s experience of God?

All the best.

Surely, my friend, we cannot, we must not, judge our brother, but love him, even if he is murdering us... And men like Harry are most assurredly God's gift to the world, for in very real ways, their character holds together the moral fiber of creation even in godlessness...

Yet Harry did not know God, and could not lead [exegesontai] others to Him, nor even to himself... And I do not believe God condemns Harry for that, but placed him upon the earth for the purpose of that character. When Harry fell, this whole community shook. I will never forget the Seattle 11 o'clock news reporting the story, where someone with a video cam had captured Stan Georgeson running down the street yelling to the fire trucks with radios: "Harry's down!! Harry's down!! Call the aid car! Harry's down!!"

I got there just in time to see him pronounced by Dr. Schmidt, and they stopped cpr, and he slowly turned from pink, to blue, to black... An hour after that scene had been captured...

And of course we all know God through His creation, at whatever point in it we find ourselves... yet God wants us to know Him, not just His creation... And that is why He sent his apostles discipling the nations, and entering them into His Body, the Church... He doesn't want oblations and whole burnt offerings - He wants a broken and contrite heart... And He will not despise this offering...

We all hang on, each in our own way, I suppose... But God sent His Son for a reason, and we need to turn to Him, Who is a Person, to know God as a Person... I have no idea why He made Himself known to me... If you knew my life, you would not either... Yet I have seen others experience what I experienced, differently, of course, for they are different, and then turn away... Many criminals are like that... Believing, and not doing...

Arsenios