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"Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostIt's possible that the first Christians all kept the law as Jesus did (which is to say, they observed the laws of the Torah, not all the traditions accreted around it to "protect" it). The prohibition of eating meat and dairy products together, for example, completely misses the point of Torah law upon which it is based.
That depends on what exactly is meant by "Torah observance." The Jewish leaders of Jesus' day claimed HE wasn't being Torah observant.
I don't recall seeing that complaint, though Judaism was hardly monolithic at the time. Who was complaining? The Pharisees? Saducees? Essenes?
Is there good Messianic Judaism? The label, it seems to me, displays a reluctance to identify oneself with Christians in favor of emphasizing one's Jewishness (a stance of which Paul certainly would disapprove).
Paul was arguing against the idea that people had a better or worse status based on which group they belong to. He was not denying that there were Jews, Gentiles, slaves, free, men, or women, but was saying that they all had equal when it comes to being in Christ. In other words, Paul was not denying the Jewishness of Christianity, but that that gives superior status to Jews.
IIRC Bah'a'ullah claimed to be the Muslim Mahdi.
Jesus came in fulfillment of the Jewish Tanakh, but, properly understood, Christianity transcends Judaism to encompass humanity. It is the "faithful remnant" of the prophets with the inclusion of the Gentiles which those same prophets predict.
Those who attempted to follow both the old and new covenants in the time of the Church Fathers tended to have rather unorthodox theology. And the liturgy of the Orthodox Church is still based on the synagogue service from which it developed.
If the point is that Jews tend to misrepresent Christianity, they do."Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostReally?
And what about keeping the Passover? Going to conveniently not address it again?Last edited by Soyeong; 04-19-2015, 05:24 PM."Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser
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Originally posted by Soyeong View PostIndeed, I thought that had already been address sufficiently.
The Israelites were exhorted to circumcise their hearts in Deuteronomy, but that did not replace the requirements of physical circumcision.
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostYou've merely avoided the issue. If A matters more than B, it does not mean that B is completely null and redundant and revoked.
The Israelites were exhorted to circumcise their hearts in Deuteronomy, but that did not replace the requirements of physical circumcision.Last edited by Soyeong; 04-19-2015, 11:12 PM."Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser
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Originally posted by Soyeong View PostRomans 2:26-29 For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. 26 So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 Then he who is physically[c] uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code[d] and circumcision but break the law. 28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostThe Israelites were exhorted to circumcise their hearts in Deuteronomy, but that did not replace the requirements of physical circumcision."Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser
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Originally posted by Soyeong View PostIndeed, God's law does require Jews to become physically circumcised as a sign of the covenant
but if God were to choose who could eat of the lamb between someone who was physically circumcised who lived in complete disregard to His law and someone who was uncircumcised who lived in obedience to His law, I have no expectation that God would choose the first over the second. He would regard the first as being uncircumcised and the second as being circumcised.
Weren't you the one claiming that all of God's commands needed to be kept?
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So what are you and the other Gentiles in your group waiting for?
I'm pretty sure God would have been unhappy about some of the circumcised people eating the Passover but that does not nullify the command to be circumcised.
Weren't you the one claiming that all of God's commands needed to be kept?"Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser
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Originally posted by Soyeong View PostI have never advocated joining the Old covenant and I would be opposed to anything thinking that we should.
The law is spiritual, so I think a case can be made for going by the spirit of the law rather than the letter, though the easy solution would be for them to be circumcised... If they someone gets circumcised because they want to obey God out of faith and love, then it would be appropriate.
You've made so much noise in multiple threads about obeying all of God's commands. Now when pointed that entails that circumcision has to be done you backpedal and evade.
By Mosaic Law Passover has to be kept. To keep Passover the males have to be circumcised. So to keep God's commands, as you have been emphasised so much, you need to be circumcised.
It is not merely 'appropriate'. It is necessary.
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You've made so much noise in multiple threads about obeying all of God's commands. Now when pointed that entails that circumcision has to be done you backpedal and evade.
By Mosaic Law Passover has to be kept. To keep Passover the males have to be circumcised. So to keep God's commands, as you have been emphasised so much, you need to be circumcised.
It is not merely 'appropriate'. It is necessary.
And really, who is this rabbi of yours that can't do even simple exegesis to the effect that circumcision is necessary to keep God's commands?"Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser
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Originally posted by Soyeong View PostIt's amusing that you think I backpedaled. I distinctly said that I think the case can be made a circumcised heart more than qualifies for the requirement for eating of the lamb.
Even then, people who are uncircumcised can celebrate Passover without eating of the lamb.
someone can cover their bases by simply getting circumcised
Did you see my quoting my rabbi in this regard?
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The two reasons why believers would change denominations would be:
Discovering that the new group has compelling answers for topics that are important to them
Finding out that the answers expand their understanding of their faith
In the process, shaky understandings of issues that are not relevant to their needs do not seem to bother them, as can be seen by the large numbers of people who hold on to the various unorthodox sects like Mormonism and JWism. They live with massive contradictions anx do do Messianic Jews.
An important issue in the first category is the view of Law, and I am very happy to understand that Law is eternal, has always existed, since people died even when no formal code was revealed by God, and people only die if they transgress, and transgression happens only if law exists.
Law existed even in the Garden, in all its aspects and Adam was only immune from death because he was not exposed to law by virtue of God not placing him under the law's jurisdiction.
The same situation exists for those who are IN Christ. We are in the new humanity, which is also spared from the jurisdiction of Law, by virtue of Christ winning the authority to represent the old humanity, dying and putting into force a will, because no will can be put into force without a death, the terms of the will being that those who were IN Christ, in the new humanity, by virtue of faith, would enjoy the benefits of the new administration, not of Law but of Grace, meaning that whilst the Old Administration had requirements and those who did not meet the requirements, meaning all, were under a curse, would die, meaning not live the entirety of the life eternal, a type of living, whence in the presence of God one's earthly needs world be met and one would contribute to the restoration of creation, if one honoured law, but only enjoy in part eternal living, have the needs of one's earthly existence met but not have the gift of enabling to contribute to the restoration of creation.
Where as those IN Christ WOULD have the opportunity to live the entirety of eternal living: they would have all their early needs met, be enabled to contribute to the restoration of creation as well as not be under the jurisdiction of the law. In other words, enjoy all the benefits the first Adam enjoyed.
Messianic Judaism seems to provide a safe answer to how a believer should understand law, although whether that view is safe is itself debatable since Scripture teaches that those who place themselves under Law are under the curse associated with Law,.since Christ will be of no benefit to them, these losing that which qualifies them to be co-inheritors of the will with Christ, faith in Him, who is Himself the first beneficiary of that will, testament, covenant.
That deals with the peace Messianic have with the view of Law. My question is what way does their teachings deal with expanding the range of issues they are able to understand.
For example, the conventional understanding of the purpose of creation, God's game plan, His will, is for men to turn to Him so that they may escape judgement, and Hell, and find refuge in heaven. That sounds rather simplistic, because the original plan seems to have been a partnering with God to complete the work of creation, subduing the world, of which man's natural self is present in microcosm, affirming God's righteousness in the physical realm as it has already been assigned in the spiritual, ie. His will being done on earth as it is done in heaven.
Orthodox Judaism teaches that chayei olam, eternal living, is the observing of God's commandments, doing mitzvot, contributing to the restoration of creation, repairing creation, tikkun olam. The view is derivative, based on that which is found in the written and the oral instructions, and is speculative, since no tangible results are seen.
Compare that with the teaching of Christ:
John 5:39You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
I suppose I'm saying that doctrinal soundness isn't going to generate progress in this discussion, because highly qualified scholars have already formed well supported views for their own positions. What may tip the discussion in favor of a particular position is evidence of tangible improvement in the situation of creation, actual regeneration of dead creatures:
John 7:38Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them."
Jeremiah 2:13"My people have committed two sins: They have forsaken me, the spring of living
water, and have dug their own cisterns, broken cisterns that cannot hold water.
Revelation 7:17For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; 'he will lead them to springs of living water.'
Zechariah 14:8On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it east to the Dead Sea and half of it west to the Mediterranean Sea, in summer and in winter.
9And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one.Last edited by footwasher; 04-20-2015, 02:23 AM.
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