Molinistic Arminian

[Nanny]

I'm somewhat familiar with the Arminian position, but one twebber (is that a word?) has spoken of being a Molinist. I love tweb -- a great place to learn. Thanks.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

I'm somewhat familiar with the Arminian position, but one twebber (is that a word?) has spoken of being a Molinist. I love tweb -- a great place to learn. Thanks.

I consider myself a Molinist Nanny, though I am not an Arminian. This is my belief basically.

God knows all things.

God knows all possible outcomes in all possible worlds.

God knows for instance, what would happen if I signed off right now and went to bed and what would happen if I finished this post.

Apparently, God chose the world where I would finish this post. (At least that's how it looks thus far.)

Thus, man has free-will and makes the choices that aren't forced, but God knows how he will respond. Man is free, and God is sovereign.

If I've mistook the view on any level, another molinist can say so, but it largely hinges on possible worlds and what William Lane Craig calls Middle Knowledge.

Hope this helps!

[Sheepdog]

Hello, and welcome to TWeb. I am a Classic Arminian and as a matter of fact, i'm a Moninist. I may have been the one who used the term "Molinistic Arminian." i don't remember.

if you have any questions about either, feel free to ask here.

[Darth Executor]

I have a question about what you said Nick.

Apparently, God chose the world where I would finish this post. (At least that's how it looks thus far.)

This doesn't quite fit with the rest. If God chooses which world is going to happen, doesn't that mean He decides what we're going to do?

[ApologiaPhoenix]

I have a question about what you said Nick.



This doesn't quite fit with the rest. If God chooses which world is going to happen, doesn't that mean He decides what we're going to do?

This is where it gets difficult. I would say that God did not decide it for me. I still made it as a free-will decision. God chose the world where that would be actualized though.

There are many facets of this I'm still chewing on. I'll probably never reach a definite conclusion this side of eternity, but never tire of it either.

[Xavier]

This is where it gets difficult. I would say that God did not decide it for me. I still made it as a free-will decision. God chose the world where that would be actualized though.

There are many facets of this I'm still chewing on. I'll probably never reach a definite conclusion this side of eternity, but never tire of it either.

It has to do with primary and secondary causation. God is a secondary cause of everything for the reason that nothing happens without God's assent or grace. So regardless of your view, choices will always have God as a secondary cause.

You are still the primary cause of your choice. The truth of a counterfactual of your choice is determined by you. You are the reason that you will chose a certain way in a given situation.

All Molinism does is say that God has knowledge of your free choices in all possible worlds. God in his sovereignty choses the possible world to actualize, your free choices and all.

Yet Another Molinist,
Xavier

[Nanny]

It has to do with primary and secondary causation. God is a secondary cause of everything for the reason that nothing happens without God's assent or grace. So regardless of your view, choices will always have God as a secondary cause.

You are still the primary cause of your choice. The truth of a counterfactual of your choice is determined by you. You are the reason that you will chose a certain way in a given situation.

All Molinism does is say that God has knowledge of your free choices in all possible worlds. God in his sovereignty choses the possible world to actualize, your free choices and all.

Yet Another Molinist,
Xavier

To Matt (and all):
I've heard a little about "middle knowledge" a la W.L.Craig. It's not easy to comprehend other than that God is aware of every possible eventuality. I know it's not simple, but do I have that correct? Matt, am I correct that this is more compatible with the Arminian view of "free will"? ... "according to the foreknowledge of God."
But ... it still recognizes that God sets the stage, so to speak. Oh boy, I'm now really confused.

[Nanny]

I consider myself a Molinist Nanny, though I am not an Arminian. This is my belief basically.

God knows all things.

God knows all possible outcomes in all possible worlds.

Thanks, Nick, for putting this in easy terms. So are you Arminian or Calvinist? I'm not trying to start a fight here. For years I've not wanted to call myself either/or. Sovereignty and free will has just been one of those great mysteries I can't fathom. Maybe I'll do more studying on middle knowledge, but the little I have heard is mind boggling.
Wish me luck.
nanny

[Sheepdog]

To Matt (and all):
I've heard a little about "middle knowledge" a la W.L.Craig. It's not easy to comprehend other than that God is aware of every possible eventuality. I know it's not simple, but do I have that correct? Matt, am I correct that this is more compatible with the Arminian view of "free will"? ... "according to the foreknowledge of God."
But ... it still recognizes that God sets the stage, so to speak. Oh boy, I'm now really confused.

that sounds about right, actually.


if you are curious to understand Arminianism better, i wrote a series of articles on my website. it's against TWeb policy to advertise other sites in posts, so i'll just point to the link in my sig and say scroll down a ways.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

Thanks, Nick, for putting this in easy terms. So are you Arminian or Calvinist? I'm not trying to start a fight here. For years I've not wanted to call myself either/or. Sovereignty and free will has just been one of those great mysteries I can't fathom. Maybe I'll do more studying on middle knowledge, but the little I have heard is mind boggling.
Wish me luck.
nanny

I'm more calvinist than arminian but I've resigned myself to the fact that God and time is something I'll never fully understand this side of eternity. (Maybe not even on the other side either!)

[Xavier]

To Matt (and all):
I've heard a little about "middle knowledge" a la W.L.Craig.

That's the one...

It's not easy to comprehend other than that God is aware of every possible eventuality. I know it's not simple, but do I have that correct?

Indeed...

Matt, am I correct that this is more compatible with the Arminian view of "free will"?

Yes, Molinism uses Libertarian Free Will. The same formulation as the Classical Arminian position.

[...] it still recognizes that God sets the stage, so to speak.

Indeed, Molinism allows God complete sovereignty while maintaining that men's actions are free.

Oh boy, I'm now really confused.

I'd say you've got it down rather nicely...

Yours,
Xavier

[Nanny]

that sounds about right, actually.


if you are curious to understand Arminianism better, i wrote a series of articles on my website.

Sheepdog, I'll be happy to take a look.
My background is "non-denom." (Brethren/dispensational) and Methodist -- two close family members were U.M. ministers. What a mix, huh? I claim no theological adherence to either, but we are active church members.

[Nanny]

I'm more calvinist than arminian but I've resigned myself to the fact that God and time is something I'll never fully understand this side of eternity. (Maybe not even on the other side either!)

AMEN!!! Thanks for your candor.

[Nanny]

Yes, Molinism uses Libertarian Free Will. The same formulation as the Classical Arminian position.
.......
Indeed, Molinism allows God complete sovereignty while maintaining that men's actions are free.

Once again, Matt, you've come to the rescue.

I'd say you've got it down rather nicely...

Don't they have an award here for "thoroughly confused?"

.....

"Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to Him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen."