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On atheists who attend church

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Jesse View Post
    If I were an atheist, I would definitely be going for the food. As a kid, I went to a black church for a bit and they had the Best.Food.Ever.
    Black churches have the best music, too.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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    • #17
      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
      Black churches have the best music, too.
      I was in a gospel choir at school. I think there was one other white person. I can attest that black church music is really good.
      A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
      George Bernard Shaw

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      • #18
        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
        Black churches have the best music, too.
        Especially when it's turned all the way up, and there's dancing in the aisles.
        I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
          Nonetheless, I can see why people would want to stay within the structure of a church; it's something they're used to, and people enjoy the social benefits of belonging to organizations, and generally like to fit in somewhere. However, why wouldn't people want to do this within the context of fraternal organizations, or other groups that don't require somebody to basically play pretend?
          For a person who grew up in the church, or whose friends and family belong to the church, it's not so easy to simply dissociate with that church in favor of a secular fraternal organization or somesuch other group. That person already has a group filled with people that care about him, and about whom he cares. Unlike many other fraternal organizations, leaving a church can quite often mean losing friends and family. Not just falling out of touch with old friends, mind you, but having people actively dissociate themselves from the atheist simply because he is an atheist.

          In the case of pastors and clergy, there's also the fiduciary concern. If you've been a pastor for 20 years, you might have some legitimate concerns about how you could care for yourself and your family without the income from that occupation. It might be quite difficult to simply leave a decently-paying position in order to find other work, and a seminary education is not generally the most eclectic, for helping a person to find general work.

          I have also seen the argument that some like the values that Christianity teaches, especially Jesus's ethical teachings. I guess I don't understand why somebody who likes these would require the context of a church to practice/promote them.
          Generally, I think the social aspect is what keeps people in church. Even amongst those atheists that say they still value Jesus' ethical teachings, most do not remain with their churches. While identifying with Christian ethics may be a factor in some atheists remaining in church, I would think that it is secondary to the social factors.
          "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
          --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
            In the case of pastors and clergy, there's also the fiduciary concern.
            I find that a bit offensive. I know PLENTY of Pastors, mostly of smaller churches, who serve because it's a calling in SPITE of the money.

            If you've been a pastor for 20 years, you might have some legitimate concerns about how you could care for yourself and your family without the income from that occupation.
            Somebody who has been a pastor for 20 years probably understands that God provides, and trusts Him accordingly.

            It might be quite difficult to simply leave a decently-paying position
            Um... define "decently-paying" - MANY pastors are bi-vocational, working a secular job in addition to whatever they are paid by a Church, if anything.

            in order to find other work, and a seminary education is not generally the most eclectic, for helping a person to find general work.
            Yeah, a degree in poly-sci is MUCH better at getting somebody a job selling cars or managing a burger joint.

            Generally, I think the social aspect is what keeps people in church. Even amongst those atheists that say they still value Jesus' ethical teachings, most do not remain with their churches. While identifying with Christian ethics may be a factor in some atheists remaining in church, I would think that it is secondary to the social factors.
            You seem to be quite liberal with the assumptions and generalizations.

            I DO agree that the social factor is probably the main reason why those atheists who stay do so - including the social aspect of remaining married.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              I find that a bit offensive. I know PLENTY of Pastors, mostly of smaller churches, who serve because it's a calling in SPITE of the money.
              ...
              Um... define "decently-paying" - MANY pastors are bi-vocational, working a secular job in addition to whatever they are paid by a Church, if anything.
              I've known many pastors like this, as well. I wasn't saying that pastoring is a high-paying job, sought after because of the big bucks it can net someone. I'm not one of those people who pretends that every pastor is a televangelist or a Mega-Church leader. However, the fact that there are some pastors who serve despite being able to make more money elsewhere does not change the fact that there are other pastors who could not make as much in other jobs.

              Somebody who has been a pastor for 20 years probably understands that God provides, and trusts Him accordingly.
              We were discussing pastors who have lost their faith and become atheists. Such people would not "understand that God provides, and trust Him accordingly."

              Yeah, a degree in poly-sci is MUCH better at getting somebody a job selling cars or managing a burger joint.
              And these jobs would come with a significant fiduciary downgrade, for many pastors. The concern regarding how one might make up the income shed by such a pay cut could very easily be a reason that an atheist puts on a Christian guise and continues pastoring, despite his own lack of faith.

              You seem to be quite liberal with the assumptions and generalizations.
              They are admittedly anecdotal. I'm not arguing a logical syllogism by their usage, and I'd gladly abandon such views if data showed them to be in error. I mention them simply to give my opinion on factors which might keep an atheist attending church.

              I DO agree that the social factor is probably the main reason why those atheists who stay do so - including the social aspect of remaining married.
              I can tell you, from experience, that coming out to my wife as an atheist led to one of the biggest arguments we've ever had, followed by a few years of avoiding religious talk, altogether. It can certainly be a scary thing.
              "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
              --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                I've known many pastors like this, as well. I wasn't saying that pastoring is a high-paying job, sought after because of the big bucks it can net someone. I'm not one of those people who pretends that every pastor is a televangelist or a Mega-Church leader. However, the fact that there are some pastors who serve despite being able to make more money elsewhere does not change the fact that there are other pastors who could not make as much in other jobs.

                We were discussing pastors who have lost their faith and become atheists. Such people would not "understand that God provides, and trust Him accordingly."

                And these jobs would come with a significant fiduciary downgrade, for many pastors. The concern regarding how one might make up the income shed by such a pay cut could very easily be a reason that an atheist puts on a Christian guise and continues pastoring, despite his own lack of faith.

                They are admittedly anecdotal. I'm not arguing a logical syllogism by their usage, and I'd gladly abandon such views if data showed them to be in error. I mention them simply to give my opinion on factors which might keep an atheist attending church.

                I can tell you, from experience, that coming out to my wife as an atheist led to one of the biggest arguments we've ever had, followed by a few years of avoiding religious talk, altogether. It can certainly be a scary thing.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  ...


                  Yeah, a degree in poly-sci is MUCH better at getting somebody a job selling cars or managing a burger joint.
                  "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                  "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                  My Personal Blog

                  My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                  Quill Sword

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                  • #24
                    I think a legitimate point has been raised. If somebody is supporting a family on a steady salary - not a high paying one, but a reliable one nonetheless, and their entire educational training has been placed in the pastoral basket... I could see that the person would not want to suddenly leave their family without support.
                    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      And to be clear, I'm not saying it's an ethical thing to do at all, just that I see why somebody would.
                      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                        And these jobs would come with a significant fiduciary downgrade, for many pastors.
                        The first time I thought you might be making a more nuanced point about the responsibility for taking care of others. This time I suspect you're not clear on the difference between fiduciary and financial. A fiduciary is a trustee. As an adjective it describes the legally enforceable responsibility of a trustee to safeguard another's assets.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Ana Dragule View Post
                          This guy's from Oklahoma! He's spot on, too.

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