Rules Regarding Goyim

[Krusader]

As I was browsing some Orthodox Jewish chatrooms, I came upon this question asked of a rabbi:

"Is it halachicly impermissible to eat or drink with goyim (Gentiles)? How about just spending time with them?"

The rabbi answered that you can't drink alcoholic drinks with Gentiles. And, while eating with them is not halachicly prohibited, Jews are instructed NOT to be social friends with gentiles. Further, he said a Gentile is not to be invited to the Passover Seder.

Wine that is touched by a Gentile, he said, is prohibited for a Jew to drink unless the wine is Mevushal (whatever that means). The term "touched" refers to even touching the bottle on the outside.

I thought that these were interesting comments by the rabbi. I'm sure that Gentiles had no idea that they weren't supposed to eat with Jews or drink wine with them. Does this mean that we Gentiles make things "unclean," as we find in the Old Testament?

Do all Orthodox Jews have these rules prohibiting friendships with Gentiles? That would seem fairly cultic to me.

[technomage]

Wine that is touched by a Gentile, he said, is prohibited for a Jew to drink unless the wine is Mevushal (whatever that means).

Mevushal means "cooked" or "boiled." Kosher wine that is meshuval retains its kosher status, even if touched by a non-Jew.

And ... it should be noted that (TTBOMU) most of these prohibitions are against dining with idolators--of course, some Orthodox Jews assume that all Gentiles are idolators, thus the connection to Goyim.

[Cynic Sage]

The rabbi answered that you can't dring alcoholic drinks with Gentiles. And, while eating with them is not halachicly prohibited, Jews are instructed NOT to be social friends with gentiles. Further, he said a Gentile is not to be invited to the Passover Seder.

I've never "drang" anything with a Jewish person before.

But seriously, isn't the "No Goys at Passover" thing in the Law of Moses?

[Krusader]

Mevushal means "cooked" or "boiled." Kosher wine that is meshuval retains its kosher status, even if touched by a non-Jew.

And ... it should be noted that (TTBOMU) most of these prohibitions are against dining with idolators--of course, some Orthodox Jews assume that all Gentiles are idolators, thus the connection to Goyim.

When I was young, my best girlfriend was Jewish. I was often invited to share in the family Seder.

[technomage]

When I was young, my best girlfriend was Jewish. I was often invited to share in the family Seder.

If your friends were Orthodox, evidently they disagreed with this particular Rabbi's opinion. (And if they were Conservative or Reformed, they don't tend to be as "straight-laced" as the Orthodox.) And even at that, the opinion that "All Goyim are idolators" is not universal in Orthodox Judaism.

And ... Crusader, I realize that reading the opinion of that particular Rabbi may have been painful or upsetting to you. Please understand that many of the Rabbis I have met who hold that opinion do not mean it as a personal insult. They're simply trying, the best way they know how, to maintain purity according to their best understanding of the Tanakh.

It's ... well, there is a parallel to how many Christians feel about Wiccans. While many are willing to be social friends with me, some feel they cannot discuss certain issues with me, or feel that I cannot add anything constructive to a conversation about theology. And there are a few who will not even speak socially to me. Sometimes being shut out like that hurts ... but I keep trying to remember that these people are walking by the light they have.

[Menachem]

As I was browsing some Orthodox Jewish chatrooms, I came upon this question asked of a rabbi:

"Is it halachicly impermissible to eat or drink with goyim (Gentiles)? How about just spending time with them?"

The rabbi answered that you can't drink alcoholic drinks with Gentiles. And, while eating with them is not halachicly prohibited, Jews are instructed NOT to be social friends with gentiles. Further, he said a Gentile is not to be invited to the Passover Seder.

Wine that is touched by a Gentile, he said, is prohibited for a Jew to drink unless the wine is Mevushal (whatever that means). The term "touched" refers to even touching the bottle on the outside.

I thought that these were interesting comments by the rabbi. I'm sure that Gentiles had no idea that they weren't supposed to eat with Jews or drink wine with them. Does this mean that we Gentiles make things "unclean," as we find in the Old Testament?

Do all Orthodox Jews have these rules prohibiting friendships with Gentiles? That would seem fairly cultic to me.

The Rabbi is correct on his halacha. We really arent supposed to drink alcohol nor eat with gentiles. Drinking alcohol is prohibited because it is not Kosher wine and it is possible it is or was used for a Gentile ritual in many cases a Christian ritual. In which case we are prohibited in drinking with Gentiles. Eating has to do with whether or not the food is Kosher. Gentiles are not bound by the Halachic restrictions that Jews are when it comes to Kashrut. So we are in effect prohibited from eating with you all as well.

When in regards top the Passover Seder the rabbi is once again correct. The reason being that Pesach is a special time for us Jews only. we Jews, not Gentiles were taken from egypt by G-d so that we may worship Him. According to Halacha gentiles are not to share in the Pesach seder. Now reform and some conservative open their doors to gentiles so that they may learn about pesach and how special it is for us.

AS far as friendships with Gentiles is concerned I have many christian friends who are wonderful people. The rabbi's interpretation is that we should not put ourselves in potentially dangerous friendships where there is a chance that we might be lead astray from Judaism. That is what I am getting from the Rabbi's interpretation by your own words. healthy relationships are unavoidable in the world so we may have good relationships but stay away from ones who seek for us to abandon Judaism for other gods.

[Krusader]

The Rabbi is correct on his halacha. We really arent supposed to drink alcohol nor eat with gentiles. Drinking alcohol is prohibited because it is not Kosher wine and it is possible it is or was used for a Gentile ritual in many cases a Christian ritual. In which case we are prohibited in drinking with Gentiles. Eating has to do with whether or not the food is Kosher. Gentiles are not bound by the Halachic restrictions that Jews are when it comes to Kashrut. So we are in effect prohibited from eating with you all as well.

When in regards top the Passover Seder the rabbi is once again correct. The reason being that Pesach is a special time for us Jews only. we Jews, not Gentiles were taken from egypt by G-d so that we may worship Him. According to Halacha gentiles are not to share in the Pesach seder. Now reform and some conservative open their doors to gentiles so that they may learn about pesach and how special it is for us.

AS far as friendships with Gentiles is concerned I have many christian friends who are wonderful people. The rabbi's interpretation is that we should not put ourselves in potentially dangerous friendships where there is a chance that we might be lead astray from Judaism. That is what I am getting from the Rabbi's interpretation by your own words. healthy relationships are unavoidable in the world so we may have good relationships but stay away from ones who seek for us to abandon Judaism for other gods.

Eli, if a Gentile even touches a wine bottle it is unclean for a Jew? Come on, where is that in the Scriptures??? This is some kind of rabbinical interpretation, and not found in the Old Testament.

The rabbi seemed to say that in social situations Orthodox Jews were not to mingle with Gentiles - now I can see the purpose in that. For instance, I have four daughters. When they were dating, her father and I would have not approved of their dating a Jew (a Messianic Jew would have been fine), since the Jews deny Jesus is the Messiah. However, in our family (where there are family members with Jewish blood), it's pretty hard to not interact with Jews. Furthermore, if I might add one small thought here - We Gentile family members can't touch the wine drank by the Jewish family members, since they have usually drank all the wine before we get to any family gatherings (ha!).
And, of course, Baptists don't drink wine!

It seems to me that all these restrictions put on the Orthodox Jews regarding the Gentiles is to keep the Orthodox "down on the farm" lest they should see Pari(s)!!!! This is similar to restrictions found in the Amish communities or the Hutterites, who are not to interact with "born-again" Christians.

In closing, from a secular view, it would appear that some forms of Orthodox Judaism include at least two of Lifton's 8 marks of a cult: 1. Milieu Control and, 2. Dispensing of Existence (regarding their view of Gentiles).

[Krusader]

P.S. - As one Jew asked the rabbi on the Orthodox forum, "how come Jews buy wine from liquor stores where goyim work?" Good question. Seems to me that they should be making their own wine in vats uncontaminated by Gentile hands.

You can see how ludicrous this can get!

[Cynic Sage]

In closing, from a secular view, it would appear that some forms of Orthodox Judaism include at least two of Lifton's 8 marks of a cult: 1. Milieu Control and, 2. Dispensing of Existence (regarding their view of Gentiles).

Are you arguing that Orthodox Judaism is a cult, Cru?

[Conductor42]

The Pesach thing is biblical, the rest was fairly well explained by Eli.

[Krusader]

Are you arguing that Orthodox Judaism is a cult, Cru?

I'd say that many religious/secular groups can use mind-control techniques to keep members in line. This goes not just for ultra-Orthodox Judaism, but for such "Christian" sects as the Amish, Hutterites, Shepherding groups, etc.

Destructive sects/groups/cults have been found to include several of Robert Lifton's 8-point model of thought reform. You can read about this at:

http://www.ex-iwp.org/docs/Cults/Cult%20Criteria.htm

One could argue that many religious groups exert control over their members by using one or more of the points mentioned - however, when a group is exhibiting several of these points, I'd say it's time to get out (if you can).

[Menachem]

Eli, if a Gentile even touches a wine bottle it is unclean for a Jew? Come on, where is that in the Scriptures??? This is some kind of rabbinical interpretation, and not found in the Old Testament.

no its source it the prohibition of Avodah Zarah or in its translation--- Idol worship. Idol worship including the items used in its process is forbidden under the Avodah Zarah prohibition. you can find the entire discussion on this in tractate Avodah Zarah where it specifically lists all wines prepared by pagans.

The rabbi seemed to say that in social situations Orthodox Jews were not to mingle with Gentiles - now I can see the purpose in that. For instance, I have four daughters. When they were dating, her father and I would have not approved of their dating a Jew (a Messianic Jew would have been fine), since the Jews deny Jesus is the Messiah. However, in our family (where there are family members with Jewish blood), it's pretty hard to not interact with Jews. Furthermore, if I might add one small thought here - We Gentile family members can't touch the wine drank by the Jewish family members, since they have usually drank all the wine before we get to any family gatherings (ha!).
And, of course, Baptists don't drink wine!

I can tell you that the Talmud doews restrict pagans from touching the Kosher wine in the bottle but there is no such restrictions on the handling of the bottle. in fact in the Talmud it says that Pagans can make the bottles but Israelites must pour the wine into the bottle. That is in Tractate 33a of Avodah Zarah.

It seems to me that all these restrictions put on the Orthodox Jews regarding the Gentiles is to keep the Orthodox "down on the farm" lest they should see Pari(s)!!!! This is similar to restrictions found in the Amish communities or the Hutterites, who are not to interact with "born-again" Christians.

In closing, from a secular view, it would appear that some forms of Orthodox Judaism include at least two of Lifton's 8 marks of a cult: 1. Milieu Control and, 2. Dispensing of Existence (regarding their view of Gentiles).

it could be viewed as a cult. But the word cult doesnt always have a bad meaning. Christianity and Islam are cults also.

[Menachem]

P.S. - As one Jew asked the rabbi on the Orthodox forum, "how come Jews buy wine from liquor stores where goyim work?" Good question. Seems to me that they should be making their own wine in vats uncontaminated by Gentile hands.

You can see how ludicrous this can get!

Because there is no restriction on gentiles handling the bottles. Just so long as the wine is poured by a Jew so as to prevent contamination with any other wine. This isnt ludicrous because the situation doesnt fall down the slippery slope you are trying to place in front of it.

The conservative movement and ultimately the reform have lifted such ban saying that the wines produced today are done so for commercial sales and not for Pagan rituals as they once were so they said that was no longer needed to be followed. i in part agree with them in that the wine is commercially produced and not religiously used. but Halacha is Halacha no matter how much we complain.

[Krusader]

Because there is no restriction on gentiles handling the bottles. Just so long as the wine is poured by a Jew so as to prevent contamination with any other wine. This isnt ludicrous because the situation doesnt fall down the slippery slope you are trying to place in front of it.

The conservative movement and ultimately the reform have lifted such ban saying that the wines produced today are done so for commercial sales and not for Pagan rituals as they once were so they said that was no longer needed to be followed. i in part agree with them in that the wine is commercially produced and not religiously used. but Halacha is Halacha no matter how much we complain.

Please give me the reference in the Scriptures that prohibits Jews from drinking wine with Gentiles.

Furthermore, unless you consider Christians as pagans, would this Jewish prohibition also prohibit you from drinking wine with, let's say, an evangelical Christian who believes in the Trinity?

By the way, I think "halacha" is man-made tradition without much basis in Scripture.....just look at what the little vs. about not boiling a kid in its mother's milk has brought about. Orthodox have to have two sets of dishes, often they have two stoves. They can't let dairy dirty dishes mix with other dishes in the sink. It's all man-made traditions which have nothing to do whatsoever with boiling a kid in its mother's milk.

Then, of course, we have Orthodox women shaving their hair and wearing wigs, right? This is certainly not from the Scripture. The NT states that it is a shame for a woman to shave her head, and that was written by observant Jews. But, the Orthodox women have been forced to cut their hair to their scalps and put wigs over it (and then some even cover that with a scarf), all because of man-made traditions which have nothing to do with the Word of God. A few years ago wasn't there a halacha problem over whether or not some of the wig hair came from pagan women from India and so many of the Orthodox women feared they had "unclean" wigs. The problem there was this: the Bible never commands women to cut off their own hair and to put on wigs in the first place - so, if they were wearing "pagan" hair inadavertently, it was because they were following the word of men and not of God!

Jesus said that the Pharisees made void the Word of God by their man-made traditions. He was so right.

[Menachem]

Please give me the reference in the Scriptures that prohibits Jews from drinking wine with Gentiles.

One very big one "you shall have no other G-d's before me." That means everything that has to do with other gods even the ritual drinks and utensils is prohibited. Gentiles are considered pagans for the most part unless you would qualify as a Noachide whereas you worship the G-d of Israel as a gentile.

Furthermore, unless you consider Christians as pagans, would this Jewish prohibition also prohibit you from drinking wine with, let's say, an evangelical Christian who believes in the Trinity?

Depends on which view you take. The opinion of Maimonides is that Christains are Pagans. Rashi and others say that you are not.

By the way, I think "halacha" is man-made tradition without much basis in Scripture.....just look at what the little vs. about not boiling a kid in its mother's milk has brought about. Orthodox have to have two sets of dishes, often they have two stoves. They can't let dairy dirty dishes mix with other dishes in the sink. It's all man-made traditions which have nothing to do whatsoever with boiling a kid in its mother's milk.

To which I attribute your negative opinion to your being less that adequately informed on the matter whihc means you are simply speaking from what the christain church has dumped on you..

Then, of course, we have Orthodox women shaving their hair and wearing wigs, right? This is certainly not from the Scripture. The NT states that it is a shame for a woman to shave her head, and that was written by observant Jews.

LOL...the NT was not written by observant jews. If they were so observant they would not caught breaking the Torah around every corner. Plus, Paul's words are not that of an observant jew. Any Observatn jew would say the Torah is perfect. Paul gives a less that positive view of the Torah. instead he abandons the Torah in favor of Human divination.

But, the Orthodox women have been forced to cut their hair to their scalps and put wigs over it (and then some even cover that with a scarf), all because of man-made traditions which have nothing to do with the Word of God. A few years ago wasn't there a halacha problem over whether or not some of the wig hair came from pagan women from India and so many of the Orthodox women feared they had "unclean" wigs. The problem there was this: the Bible never commands women to cut off their own hair and to put on wigs in the first place - so, if they were wearing "pagan" hair inadavertently, it was because they were following the word of men and not of God!

LOL crusader...Oh how Ignorance must be bliss. The problem with your post is your assumptions. You assume that Women have to cut their hair when they get married. Did it ever ocurr in your mind that it is a personal choice independent of Jewish law? Why would that be. the reason the tradition was started was to make themselves less attractive to other ment and thus preventing themselves from either being raped or from being involved themsleves in an extramarital affair. Boy you should really read up on why things are done and what Jewish law really teaches instead of going on bold faced assumption that bear nothing but the stamp of ignorance of said tradition.

Jesus said that the Pharisees made void the Word of God by their man-made traditions. He was so right.

the only problem with this is that jesus only made himself look foolish. see the other thread as to why he made a fool of himself in your "example."