In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was in the past

[Cognos]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. (John 1:1-4)

I find it interesting that all the verbs in the above passage are in the past tense. "In him was life", not "is life".

Most of the events depicted in the various books of the Bible were presented by the authors as having taken place in the past. And, to the extent that the words of the Bible represent the Word of God, God spoke. But does God speak?

Many Christians quote passages from the various books of the Bible and they say "God says ...", instead of "God said ..." But what does God say today?

Imagine if humans communicated with other humans only once every 500 years? How effective would the communication be? What about an interval of about 1,000 years? How often does God communicate with humans?

Socrates, Siddhartha Gautama, and Confucius "spoke" and then they were silent. Did they represent the final word? (Interesting that they all lived around the same time.) What about Aristotle and Ptolemy? (Well, I'm sure that they understood logos ...)
Galileo and Newton? Planck and Einstein? Penrose and Hawking? Who had/has/will have the final word?

Is it someone who spoke, someone who is speaking, or someone who will speak?
Is it someone who wrote, someone who is writing, or someone who will write?

"The past is history, the futue is a mystery ..."

And the final word is not in a collection of writings.

[LGM]

But what does God say today?

He says: "Stay out of Dover, if you know what's good for you."

...oh yeah...he also says:

"Every morning I will put to silence all the wicked in the land; except LakeGeorgeMan and Cognos, they make me laugh."

[runecrow]

The use of the verb in John 1:1 is imperfect, as are a good number of the verbs in scripture. Genesis 1:3 actually says, "God is saying, Let light exist". So, according to the use of the language, I could say that God is still saying quite a bit today.

[shunyadragon]

The use of the verb in John 1:1 is imperfect, as are a good number of the verbs in scripture. Genesis 1:3 actually says, "God is saying, Let light exist". So, according to the use of the language, I could say that God is still saying quite a bit today.

Imperfect tense? Mabe no beginning. Light exists.

[technomage]

I find it interesting that all the verbs in the above passage are in the past tense. "In him was life", not "is life".

Most of the events depicted in the various books of the Bible were presented by the authors as having taken place in the past. And, to the extent that the words of the Bible represent the Word of God, God spoke. But does God speak?

Many Christians quote passages from the various books of the Bible and they say "God says ...", instead of "God said ..." But what does God say today?

Imagine if humans communicated with other humans only once every 500 years? How effective would the communication be? What about an interval of about 1,000 years? How often does God communicate with humans?

Socrates, Siddhartha Gautama, and Confucius "spoke" and then they were silent. Did they represent the final word? (Interesting that they all lived around the same time.) What about Aristotle and Ptolemy? (Well, I'm sure that they understood logos ...)
Galileo and Newton? Planck and Einstein? Penrose and Hawking? Who had/has/will have the final word?

Is it someone who spoke, someone who is speaking, or someone who will speak?
Is it someone who wrote, someone who is writing, or someone who will write?

"The past is history, the futue is a mystery ..."

And the final word is not in a collection of writings.

As Runecrow indicates, these are not past tense, but "imperfect" tense. That frequently indicates an action that started in the past, but continued or continues. It should be noted that the Gospels are not exactly the pinnacle of Greek literature, grammatically speaking. GoMark has got to be some of the worst Greek writing in the world. GoJohn's not perfect ... but it is very good.

Generally speaking, even as a Bible skeptic, I can see that the author is indicating a state that existed in the past and continues--and will continue forever. It's a theological contention that I don't subscribe to, but the grammar fits the contention.

[Cognos]

Okay, I see that I should not have started the OP with a quote from the Gospel of John. (And nobody should ever quote a passage from an English translation of the various books of the Bible ...)

I was making a pun on the "Word" but this thread is not about John 1:1.

This thread is about a simple fact that nobody denies: The various books of the Bible were written in the past, and therefore, the "words" of the Bible were written in the past. "And, to the extent that the words of the Bible represent the Word of God, God spoke. But does God speak?"

What does God say today?

How often does God communicate with humans?

Who had/has/will have the final word?

[technomage]

Okay, I see that I should not have started the OP with a quote from the Gospel of John. (And nobody should ever quote a passage from an English translation of the various books of the Bible ...)

I was making a pun on the "Word" but this thread is not about John 1:1.

This thread is about a simple fact that nobody denies: The various books of the Bible were written in the past, and therefore, the "words" of the Bible were written in the past. "And, to the extent that the words of the Bible represent the Word of God, God spoke. But does God speak?"

What does God say today?

How often does God communicate with humans?

Who had/has/will have the final word?

Oh, that's easy--there is no objective evidence that any God-like entity exists, or has communicated with humanity in any form.I got plenty of subjective evidence ... and if you take my subjective evidence and five bucks, it'll get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

Of course, if there's sales tax, you'd better take some change, too. :coffee:

[Cognos]

Oh, that's easy--there is no objective evidence that any God-like entity exists, or has communicated with humanity in any form. I got plenty of subjective evidence ...

Okay, how about two examples?

[technomage]

Okay, how about two examples?

So what ... do you not like Starbucks, or do you not have the five dollars?

[NormATive]

I find it interesting that all the verbs in the above passage are in the past tense. "In him was life", not "is life"...

...Most of the events depicted in the various books of the Bible were presented by the authors as having taken place in the past. And, to the extent that the words of the Bible represent the Word of God, God spoke. But does God speak?

...Many Christians quote passages from the various books of the Bible and they say "God says ...", instead of "God said ..." But what does God say today?


"The past is history, the future is a mystery ..."

And the final word is not in a collection of writings.

Intriguing OP, Cognos. It's something I"ve been wondering (actually, still wondering ) for quite some time. And, I am still waiting for a reasonable answer.

It's seems a little suspicious that all the gods in the world stopped doing miraculous things at about the same time Galileo & Company started examining the cosmos.

Of course, nowadays, when God© speaks, someone gets murdered.

I just hope my final words are at least intelligible and that I don't drool all over myself.

NORM

[ApologiaPhoenix]

I'm wondering why God should say something to people today if they're not going to listen to what he already said.

[Cognos]

I'm wondering why God should say something to people today if they're not going to listen to what he already said.

I'm wondering why anyone would suggest what God should or shouldn't do.

It seems that God's communication with humans is limited temporally and spatially.

[JonAdams]

Okay, I see that I should not have started the OP with a quote from the Gospel of John. (And nobody should ever quote a passage from an English translation of the various books of the Bible ...)

I was making a pun on the "Word" but this thread is not about John 1:1.

This thread is about a simple fact that nobody denies: The various books of the Bible were written in the past, and therefore, the "words" of the Bible were written in the past. "And, to the extent that the words of the Bible represent the Word of God, God spoke. But does God speak?"

What does God say today?

How often does God communicate with humans?

Who had/has/will have the final word?

A better question to ask is how do you know God is not communicating with you and that you are not hearing him? This question has been raised before and God has answered it:

Isaiah 64:12-65:5 (NRSV)

After all this, will you restrain yourself, O LORD? Will you keep silent, and punish us so severely?
Isa 65:1 I [God] was ready to be sought out by those who did not ask,
to be found by those who did not seek me.
I said, "Here I am, here I am,"
to a nation that did not call on my name.
Isa 65:2 I held out my hands all day long
to a rebellious people,
who walk in a way that is not good,
following their own devices;
Isa 65:3 a people who provoke me
to my face continually,
sacrificing in gardens
and offering incense on bricks;
Isa 65:4 who sit inside tombs,
and spend the night in secret places;
who eat swine's flesh,
with broth of abominable things in their vessels;
Isa 65:5 who say, "Keep to yourself,
do not come near me, for I am too holy for you."

The people are complaining that God is silent and refuses to speak to them but God replies that the opposite is true, he greatly desired to speak with them but they refused him and turned away from him.

But more than that, God communicates not just by speaking but through other ways. Why do you think John used logos (word) to describe Jesus at the begining of his gospel? Because Jesus is Gods act of communication with us:

Hebrews 1:1-2 (NRSV)

Long ago God spoke to our ancestors in many and various ways by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son

And what's more, just because a word was spoken by God in the past it does not mean that he cannot still speak out of that same word today (there are many testimonies of people who became Christians after nothing more than reading a bible - or even just a bit of a bible).

So to answer your questions:
What does God say today?
The same thing he has said in the past:

Matthew 11:28 (NRSV)

"Come to me, all you that are weary and are carrying heavy burdens, and I will give you rest.

How often does God communicate with humans?

Isaiah 65:2 (NRSV)

I held out my hands all day long to a rebellious people...

Who had/has/will have the final word?

Revelation 22:13 (NRSV)

I [Jesus] am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

Jonathan.

[Cognos]

A better question to ask is how do you know God is not communicating with you and that you are not hearing him?

Well, then, God is not communicating -- he is merely talking ...

This question has been raised before and God has answered it:

Jonathan, it seems that you are being serious when you quote Isaiah and you claim that this is God answering my question. Was Isaiah talking to me?

Why do you think John used logos (word) to describe Jesus at the begining of his gospel?

Why do you think that Paul did not use logos to describe Jesus?

So to answer your questions:
What does God say today?
The same thing he has said in the past:

Okay.

[GreatWhiteHype2]

Well, then, God is not communicating -- he is merely talking ... Jonathan, it seems that you are being serious when you quote Isaiah and you claim that this is God answering my question. Was Isaiah talking to me?Why do you think that Paul did not use logos to describe Jesus?Okay.

I would certainly affirm that God is still speaking today...Jesus took time out of his day to tell those listening in John 16:12ff, "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now beat. But when he, the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come."

If you ask me, it is humanity that has put a limitation on what is perceived as canon that has led to the misconception that God is not speaking today. Instead of looking at the Bible as God's final word, we instead should view it as an overarching structure within which to test whether we are in fact hearing the Word of God today in what we perceive God to be saying.

In regards to your comment that God's communication with human beings is limited temporally and spatially, I'd say we've got something to discuss. I call it the power of a worldview: specifically the Enlightenment construct of a deistic God who wound up the universe like a giant clock at creation and walked away from it never more to interact again; not to mention that he's powerless to act against the laws of nature anyways. I (and I assume you) grew up with strong dregs of this philosophy rolling around in my head. My point here...more specifically than what JonAdams was suggesting is that God is speaking but we've got our hands over our ears screaming "Lalala, you're not there." This worldview works in direct opposition to the image of God we are given in the Bible of a God who is powerful, immanent in his creation, and massive; yet intimate and caring and tolerant and patient. A dynamic God, I'd say.

My suggestion is that you pay a little more attention to what's going on with Christianity in places like Asia, Africa, and South America to get a handle on what happens where people read the Bible and don't have to fight the battle inside themselves of whether God is who He is in the Bible or is some degree of powerless Creator who could care less about us. Wanna see miraculous healings? Direct instructions to church leaders? People willing to listen and know He is speaking? Check out those places, and you might be surprised.

In terms of "objective" criteria existing to prove the existence of God, the suggestion of anything or anyone approaching "objective" in this world is a crock. Every bit of knowledge you or I are exposed to demands that we place some degree of belief in it, whether it's a contention such as "The LA Clippers will win the NBA Title" or "God doesn't exist" or "Creation is revealed most primarily through scientific inquiry." When you and I drop the idea that any one of us occupies the place of pure objectivity, we will be much better off as people (and dare I say more open to hearing God communicating directly to us when we affirm that he can?!)

What was it the Church Father Origen said regarding the presence of God, "The sun is always shining, we just close our eyes?"