JFE - John 17:21-23 - One Lord God

[apostoli]

This thread is an attempt to focus on a "single topic" and is a continuation of Apostoli's and John from Elber's conversation on the threads 1="More Anti-Trin Argument" and 2="JFE: Rev 5:7. One Lord God." Apostoli is arguing from an orthodox view of the trinity. JFE (?)

"I and The Father are One" One GOD

apostoli replied post #2:1 and is awaiting a response.

John 17:21-23 creates a major problem for your theory: It says "...I pray for those...who shall believe on me...that they all may be one, as you Father, are in me, and I in thee, they also may be one in us...And the glory which you have given me I have given them, that they may be one, even as we are one"

[John from Ebla]

This thread is an attempt to focus on a "single topic" and is a continuation of Apostoli's and John from Elber's conversation on the threads 1="More Anti-Trin Argument" and 2="JFE: Rev 5:7. One Lord God." Apostoli is arguing from an orthodox view of the trinity. JFE (?)

apostoli replied post #2:1 and is awaiting a response.

John 17:21-23 creates a major problem for your theory: It says "...I pray for those...who shall believe on me...that they all may be one, as you Father, are in me, and I in thee, they also may be one in us...And the glory which you have given me I have given them, that they may be one, even as we are one"

For you many gods it is a problem it is a porblem

Jesus was fully Human and Fully God. He thirst, he felt pain and he cried out to the Father- (The word was God and became flesh John 1:1-3,10,14) If you want bible lesson then let me know

Kind regards
John from Ebla

[John from Ebla]

This thread is an attempt to focus on a "single topic" and is a continuation of Apostoli's and John from Elber's conversation on the threads 1="More Anti-Trin Argument" and 2="JFE: Rev 5:7. One Lord God." Apostoli is arguing from an orthodox view of the trinity. JFE (?)

apostoli replied post #2:1 and is awaiting a response.

John 17:21-23 creates a major problem for your theory: It says "...I pray for those...who shall believe on me...that they all may be one, as you Father, are in me, and I in thee, they also may be one in us...And the glory which you have given me I have given them, that they may be one, even as we are one"

Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and His Redeemer the Lord of Hosts I Am the first, and I Am the last; and besides Me there is no God Isaiah 44:6. ("Me" and "l" is singular.

"I Am the first and the last" I Am He that liveth and was dead; and, behold, I Am alive forevermore, Amen;" Revelation 1:17,18


Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord." Jer. 23:24

He that descended is the same also that ascended up into heaven, ... that He might fill all things." Eph. 9:10.

"I and the father are One" One Lord and God

Kind regards
John From Ebla

[apostoli]

For you many gods it is a problem it is a porblem

A.Paul at Ephesians 1:17 says he prays "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him (cp: John 17:3; 20:17; Heb 8-9.)

Jesus was fully Human and Fully God. He thirst, he felt pain and he cried out to the Father- (The word was God and became flesh John 1:1-3,10,14)

Ah! You have change your stance. Elsewhere you told me Jesus is the flesh thing, the man, in whom the spirit of God tabernacled (tented). You also said that the Spirit didn't come to dwell in him until he was born. I believe Jesus is fully man and fully God in hypostatic union. Your stated theology makes him a man possesed by God.

If you want bible lesson then let me know....He that descended is the same also that ascended up into heaven, ... that He might fill all things." Eph. 9:10.

Hmm. Which "bible" do you use? In the Christian bible Ephesians only has 6 chapters.

Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and His Redeemer the Lord of Hosts I Am the first, and I Am the last; and besides Me there is no God Isaiah 44:6. ("Me" and "l" is singular.)

The context is in verse 9. The gods created by men.

"I Am the first and the last" I Am He that liveth and was dead; and, behold, I Am alive forevermore, Amen;" Revelation 1:17,18

In previous posts you say God did not die, only the flesh of the man Jesus died. Rev 1:18 has the one called "the first and the last" in verse 18 saying "I am he that lives, and was dead, I am alive for evermore. Compare Col 1:15-19.

Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord." Jer. 23:24

And yet A.John says there is still room for 24 thrones, multitudes, beasties etc etc. In Rev and Jeremiah we have symbolic language.

If bothered to read Jer. 23:23-24 God is saying he is a personal God that knows all. "Am I a God at hand, says the YHWH, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret that I shall not see him?"

He that descended is the same also that ascended up into heaven, ... that He might fill all things." Eph. 9:10.

[/QUOTE]Presume you are refering to John 3:13. In which case John 3:33 agrees with you "He that has received his testimony has set his seal to this God is true.

"I and the father are One" One Lord and God

In which case and assuming God heard Jesus prayer we are included in your "Our Lord and God". John 17:20-23 "that they [that believe on me] maybe one even as we are one"

[John from Ebla]

Ah! You have change your stance. Elsewhere you told me Jesus is the flesh thing, the man, in whom the spirit of God tabernacled (tented). You also said that the Spirit didn't come to dwell in him until he was born. I believe Jesus is fully man and fully God in hypostatic union. Your stated theology makes him a man possesed by God."

Yes he was born Born human. The Fullness of God means just that all of what God is.

The context is in verse 9. The gods created by men.."

Genesis 1:26 " let us make man in our image"

There is only One the fills all things and he is God

Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord." Jer. 23:24 He that descended is the same also that ascended up into heaven, ... that He might fill all things." Eph. 9:10.

If he did not partake of Human nature- he would not be filling all things (creation.)

"I and the father are One" One Lord and God

Kind regards
John From Ebla

[apostoli]

For you many gods it is a problem it is a porblem

A.Paul at Ephesians 1:17 says he prays "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him (cp: John 17:3; 20:17; Heb 8-9.)

You missed commenting on the above. As you posted that "Jesus was fully Human and Fully God" then I guess you believe there are multiple Gods.

Jesus was fully Human and Fully God. He thirst, he felt pain and he cried out to the Father- (The word was God and became flesh John 1:1-3,10,14)

Ah! You have change your stance. Elsewhere you told me Jesus is the flesh thing, the man, in whom the spirit of God tabernacled (tented). You also said that the Spirit didn't come to dwell in him until he was born. I believe Jesus is fully man and fully God in hypostatic union. Your stated theology makes him a man possesed by God."

Yes he was born Born human. The Fullness of God means just that all of what God is.

I accept that teaching but do you really? Elsewhere, in your posts you suggest that the man Jesus was posessed by God (in the same way as a demon might posess a man).
On the basis of A,Paul's words especially in his letters to the Colossians and Hebrews, I readily accept that "it pleased the Father that in [Jusus] should all fulness dwell (Col 1:15-19; Heb 1:1-3).
Based on your previous posts, when you read the word "dwell" you are interpreting it as a place to live. That is: you have previously implied that the Logos used Jesus' body as a tent. However the actual context of the scriptures does not support your opinion. To accept your opinion, we'd have to believe that in a physical sense all creation, dominions, powers and even his own resurrection tented in Jesus.

Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and His Redeemer the Lord of Hosts I Am the first, and I Am the last; and besides Me there is no God Isaiah 44:6. ("Me" and "l" is singular.)

The context is in verse 9. The gods created by men.."

Genesis 1:26 " let us make man in our image"

According to A.Paul: Adam was created in the image of God but Eve is the image of man (1 Cor 11:7). Maybe 2 Cor 3:18 gives us a guide to what image means: "But we all...are changed into the same image [as our Lord]". By the theory presented in your posts: Jesus is just the fleshy body that "the Spirit" possessed. Thus if Jesus is just a man and all men are created in God's image, how then are we changed into the image of Jesus?

There is only One the fills all things and he is God

Hmm! So now you are advocating panteheism (worship, rocks and trees etc because god fills them).

Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord." Jer. 23:24

And yet A.John says there is still room for 24 thrones, multitudes, beasties etc etc. In Rev and Jeremiah we have symbolic language. If bothered to read Jer. 23:23-24 God is saying he is a personal God that knows all. "Am I a God at hand, says the YHWH, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret that I shall not see him?"

He that descended is the same also that ascended up into heaven

Presume you are refering to John 3:13. In which case John 3:33 agrees with you "He that has received [Jesus Christ's] testimony has set his seal to this [that] God is true."

that He might fill all things." Eph. 9:10.

In the Christian bible there is no Ephesians 9:10! Ephesians only has 6 chapters.

If he did not partake of Human nature- he would not be filling all things (creation.)

You are going to have to explain that one to me. Sounds like some kind of weird pantheism. (?)

"I and the father are One"

Just as Jesus prayed that we would be also - John 17:20-23 "that they [that believe on me] maybe one even as we are one"

One Lord and God

By which you mean (based on your other posts) that there is a single entity that is both Lord and God. In opposition to your opinion A.Paul says there is one God and One Lord. Two different entities. A.Paul at Ephesians 1:17 said he prays to "the God of our Lord Jesus Christ" and at 1 Cor 6:8 says but to us there is one God, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things and we by him." (cp: John 17:3; 20:17; Heb 8-9, Eph 4:4-6 etc etc etc.)

[John from Ebla]

You missed commenting on the above. As you posted that "Jesus was fully Human and Fully God" then I guess you believe there are multiple Gods.
I accept that teaching but do you really? Elsewhere, in your posts you suggest that the man Jesus was posessed by God (in the same way as a demon might posess a man)

If God cannot do something that means he is not God. Your god cannot become flesh (man) that means he is not God- The word was God and became flesh John 1:1-3,10,14)

On the basis of A,Paul's words especially in his letters to the Colossians and Hebrews, I readily accept that "it pleased the Father that in [Jusus] should all fulness dwell (Col 1:15-19; Heb 1:1-3)

Good, the fullness of God is God.

Based on your previous posts, when you read the word "dwell" you are interpreting it as a place to live. That is: you have previously implied that the Logos used Jesus' body as a tent. However the actual context of the scriptures does not support your opinion. To accept your opinion, we'd have to believe that in a physical sense all creation, dominions, powers and even his own resurrection tented in Jesus..)

Based on your previous posts in the four threads you started you stated we see the face of God on the throne (JFE- Rev 5:7 One Lord God) but previously you said, “your god cannot be see” does not have an appearance. If you want to discuss, then make up your mind.

"He that descended is the same also that ascended up into heaven, ... that He might fill all things." Eph. 4:10. He is God becasue only God fills all things- what does not fill all things cannot be God. "Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord" Jer. 23:24 There is only oen Lord God that filsl all things.

According to A.Paul: Adam was created in the image of God but Eve is the image of man (1 Cor 11:7))

Really, read Gen1:27 Isn't Paul saying woman is the expression of man, Yes because she was not created out of dust Read Gen 2:21-22

)
In the Christian bible there is no Ephesians 9:10!
Ephesians only has 6 chapters.)

This is the first thing you have said correctly. It should read Ephesian 4:10 "He that descended is the same also that ascended up into heaven, ... that He might fill all things."

You are going to have to explain that one to me. Sounds like some kind of weird pantheism. (?))

Really.Why do people need to explain to you? Shouldn’t you explain why you teach against the bible- by teaching there is another god creator besides the Lord God. If God cannot do something that means he is not God. Your god cannot become flesh (man) that means he is not God- The word was God and became flesh John 1:1-3,10,14)

You take texts that refer to his humanity and deny texts that say he is God

By which you mean (based on your other posts) that there is a single entity that is both Lord and God. In opposition to your opinion A.Paul says there is one God and One Lord. Two different entities..)

Paul does not say the are different- You are saying the Lord is another god.

A.Paul at Ephesians 1:17 said he prays to "the God of our Lord Jesus Christ"

So he should. The eternal father is the Father of Jesus, (the human son begotten to Mary) not Joseph

)
1 Cor 6:8 says but to us there is one God, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things and we by him." (cp: John 17:3; 20:17; Heb 8-9, Eph 4:4-6 etc etc etc.)

Good you agree, God and Lord- One Lord God creator not God and your theology of another god.

Ephesian 4:10 "He that descended is the same also that ascended up into heaven, ... that He might fill all things." Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord." Jer. 23:24 Jesus is God because only God fills all things. There is no other god as you teach

Kind regards
John From Ebla

[apostoli]

You missed commenting on the above. As you posted that "Jesus was fully Human and Fully God" then I guess you believe there are multiple Gods. I accept that teaching but do you really? Elsewhere, in your posts you suggest that the man Jesus was possessed by God (in the same way as a demon might possess a man)

If God cannot do something that means he is not God. Your god cannot become flesh (man) that means he is not God- The word was God and became flesh John 1:1-3,10,14)

It is not in God's nature to do evil! Therefore he cannot do evil. So by your definition God is not God.
In various posts you have said God only tabernacled in the man Jesus Christ. Used his flesh like a tent. So by your witness, God did not become flesh, he merely possessed it (like a demon might). Therefore, by your witness your God is not God.

The orthodox definition of God is that he is the source and cause of all things. He can be perceived by man only through the things he does, not usually by what he doesn't do (1 Cor 2:9-12; Romans 1:20). Since Adam's fall the Hebrew idiom is that God has turned his face away from man, and only interacts with man through various mediators. In these times, that mediator is his Son, Jesus Christ.

On the basis of A,Paul's words especially in his letters to the Colossians and Hebrews, I readily accept that "it pleased the Father that in [Jesus] should all fullness dwell (Col 1:15-19; Heb 1:1-3)

Good, the fullness of God is God.

In a way. As A.Paul says at Hebrews 1:3, Jesus is "the perfect copy of [God's] nature" (NJB) and 1 Cor 15:27 says that God has made all things, excepting himself, subject to Jesus and Col 1:18 ,19 says that it pleases the Father=God that Jesus should have pre-eminence in all things. Jesus is not the source or cause of his empowerment, his Father is. The Son is not subjugated by the Father, but willingly subjects himself to the Father because he is of the same mind as the Father, and has the same will and love in regards to us. (Phil 2:6-11; 1 Cor 15:28; Heb 5:5-10)

Based on your previous posts, when you read the word "dwell" you are interpreting it as a place to live. That is: you have previously implied that the Logos used Jesus' body as a tent. However the actual context of the scriptures does not support your opinion. To accept your opinion, we'd have to believe that in a physical sense all creation, dominions, powers and even his own resurrection tented in Jesus.

Based on your previous posts in the four threads you started you stated we see the face of God on the throne (JFE- Rev 5:7 One Lord God) but previously you said, “your god cannot be seen” does not have an appearance. If you want to discuss, then make up your mind.

To be precise, in the threads I said in John's vision the face of God is seen. As for God being invisible, well that is what the scriptures say of God (eg: Col 1:15). I often cite Rom 1:17-20, read them. Verse 19 says ""that which may be known of God is manifested" and verse 20 says that "the invisible things of [God] from the creation of the world are clearly seen". Yes God is invisible but we can perceive (see) him through his works.

Can we see the face of God? You say you are Hebrew, so you of all persons should know the idiom in which "to see the King's face" is meant. In Hebrew idiom, since the time of Adam, God has turned his face from mankind - that is removed himself from direct fellowship. Now Revelation is talking of a future event, when we will "see God's face", in Hebrew idiom, God will turn his face towards us, God will allow us to have the same personal relationship with him as Adam had. Rev uses metaphors, symbolism, figurative language so man can comprehend the import of John's vision. Does God have a face such as those we see in creation? According to A.Paul no man knows the things of God (1 Cor 2:11) so the best man can do is use language which gives a man perception.

"He that descended is the same also that ascended up into heaven, ... that He might fill all things." Eph. 4:10. He is God because only God fills all things- what does not fill all things cannot be God.

Context is a marvelous thing. The scriptures become so clear and easily understood when they are read in context, instead of isolating and focusing on a bit of text one thinks proves ones theories. For instance the "descended" part of Eph 4:10 relates to "descended first into the lower parts of the earth" (Eph 4:9) and the "ascended" refers to both the resurrection and ascension. Ephesians 4:7-16 corresponds to Ephesians 1:17-23 wherein everything that Jesus does and all his power is attributed to "the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father" including the filling of "all in all". And what is that all things will be filled with, well in the believers case Ephesians 3:19 says "with all the fullness of God."

Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord" Jer. 23:24 There is only one Lord God that fills all things.

and the context of the passage is that we cannot hide from God. To believe that God is physically in things (fills them) is called pantheism, which leads to people worshipping the things created, not the creator of all things. Christians reject pantheism.

John 17:21-23 creates a major problem for your theory: It says "...I pray for those...who shall believe on me...that they all may be one, as you Father, are in me, and I in thee, they also may be one in us...And the glory which you have given me I have given them, that they may be one, even as we are one"

Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and His Redeemer the Lord of Hosts I Am the first, and I Am the last; and besides Me there is no God Isaiah 44:6. ("Me" and "l" is singular.)

The context is in verse 9. The gods created by men.

"Genesis 1:26 " let us make man in our image"

According to A.Paul: Adam was created in the image of God but Eve is the image of man (1 Cor 11:7). Maybe 2 Cor 3:18 gives us a guide to what image means: "But we all...are changed into the same image [as our Lord]". By the theory presented in your posts: Jesus is just the fleshy body that "the Spirit" possessed. Thus if Jesus is just a man and all men are created in God's image, how then are we changed into the image of Jesus?

I've reconstructed the sequence of posts leading to your next remark. I'm still waiting for your explanation of John 17:21-23. Quoting Isa 44:6 out of context is a non answer. Nor is diverting attention away from Isaiah, by randomly quoting Genesis. If you have no answer to John 17:21-23, just say so and we'll close this thread.

Really, read Gen1:27 Isn't Paul saying woman is the expression of man, Yes because she was not created out of dust Read Gen 2:21-22

A.Paul's exact words are "man is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of the man." A.Paul does not apply the word image to woman. In the part of my post you cut I said "Maybe 2 Cor 3:18 gives us a guide to what image means" which you have tried to avoid. As you also avoid answering "By the theory presented in your posts: Jesus is just the fleshy body that "the Spirit" possessed. if Jesus is just a man and all men are created in God's image, how then are we changed into the image of Jesus?" If you haven't an answer just say so! It is preferable to you going off on tangents and quoting random scriptures that have nothing to do with the main topic.

In the Christian bible there is no Ephesians 9:10! Ephesians only has 6 chapters.

This is the first thing you have said correctly. It should read Ephesian 4:10 "He that descended is the same also that ascended up into heaven, ... that He might fill all things."

Eph 4:10 is discussed above.

If he did not partake of Human nature- he would not be filling all things (creation.)

You are going to have to explain that one to me. Sounds like some kind of weird pantheism. (?)

Really.Why do people need to explain to you?

Well as far as I know, your teaching isn't in the bible but it is in a lot of pagan religions. If you explain your reasoning using the scriptures you would be sharing your light with me. Thats the type of thing Christians do.

Shouldn’t you explain why you teach against the bible

Well as I'm the only one here that quotes scripture in context, substantiates my understanding by quoting supporting scriptures, communicate my understanding by using biblical commentary to avoid misunderstanding it is pretty obvious which of is uses the bible to support their teaching. Your random isolation of bits of texts might be from scripture but your teaching is not supported in the bible. If your teaching was in the bible you could easily refute what Christians have believed for nearly two thousand years.

by teaching there is another god creator besides the Lord God.

Scripture says all things are of God the Father and through the Lord Jesus Christ. Also it pleased God that in his Son should have pre-eminence. A.Paul in Ephesians calls God, the "God of our Lord Jesus Christ". Of the two of us, it is not I that reject the teaching of the bible.

If God cannot do something that means he is not God. Your god cannot become flesh (man) that means he is not God- The word was God and became flesh John 1:1-3,10,14)

You yourself have said that "the Word" is the physical "voice of God"; so your God didn't become flesh. Anyway, you raised this above and I've replied above. Repeating yourself over and over justs show you are insecure in your teaching.

You take texts that refer to his humanity and deny texts that say he is God

You are amusing. First you accuse me making Jesus God, now you are saying I deny Jesus' deity. Which is it?

By which you mean (based on your other posts) that there is a single entity that is both Lord and God. In opposition to your opinion A.Paul says there is one God and One Lord. Two different entities..)

Paul does not say the are different- You are saying the Lord is another god.

According to A.Paul God the Father at 1 Cor 8:6 & Eph 4:6 is
1. the God of our Lord Jesus Christ Eph 1:17
2. the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ Eph 3:14
3. God raised up Christ (eg: 1 Cor 15:15)
4. It pleased God that the Son, through who he made all things, should have pre-eminence in all things (eg: Col 1:15-19)
1 Cor 8:6 & Eph 4:6 talk of two individualities: God the Father and his Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Deny the scriptures all you want but you can't escape what is clearly written.

One Lord and God

By which you mean (based on your other posts) that there is a single entity that is both Lord and God. In opposition to your opinion A.Paul says there is one God and One Lord. Two different entities. A.Paul at Ephesians 1:17 said he prays to "the God of our Lord Jesus Christ"

So he should. The eternal father is the Father of Jesus, (the human son begotten to Mary) not Joseph

Which makes the Lord Jesus Christ at 1 Cor 8:6 a different individual to God the Father. Unless of course you want to contradict yourself again.

One Lord and God

By which you mean (based on your other posts) that there is a single entity that is both Lord and God. In opposition to your opinion A.Paul says there is one God and One Lord. Two different entities. A.Paul at Ephesians 1:17 said he prays to "the God of our Lord Jesus Christ" and at 1 Cor 6:8 says but to us there is one God, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things and we by him." (cp: John 17:3; 20:17; Heb 8-9, Eph 4:4-6 etc etc etc.)

Good you agree, God and Lord- One Lord God creator not God and your theology of another god.

Your comment on Eph 1:17 proves 1 Cor 8:6 is talking about two individuals. Yes there is one God the creator=the Father and there is also the one through whom he created all things=the Lord Jesus Christ. But as you deny the pre-existence of the Son, you can't accept this, so you have to ignore scripture and contradict yourself (as you do above).

Ephesian 4:10 "He that descended is the same also that ascended up into heaven, ... that He might fill all things." Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord." Jer. 23:24 Jesus is God because only God fills all things. There is no other god as you teach.

Eph 4:10 & Jer 23:24 are discussed above. Repeating yourself just shows you are feeling vulnerable.

I have always agreed with the scriptures and said there is only one God=the Father of whom are all things and one Lord=Jesus Christ through whom God created all things. Have no idea why you confuse the roles and need to deny Jesus Christ has purchased us with his blood and God has "highly exalted him" making him Lord to us (Phil 2:6-11; Acts 20:28; 1 Cor 8:6).

[John from Ebla]

It is not in God's nature to do evil! Therefore he cannot do evil. So by your definition God is not God.
In various posts you have said God only tabernacled in the man Jesus Christ. Used his flesh like a tent. So by your witness, God did not become flesh, he merely possessed it (like a demon might). Therefore, by your witness your God is not God.

The orthodox definition of God is that he is the source and cause of all things. He can be perceived by man only through the things he does, not usually by what he doesn't do (1 Cor 2:9-12; Romans 1:20). Since Adam's fall the Hebrew idiom is that God has turned his face away from man, and only interacts with man through various mediators. In these times, that mediator is his Son, Jesus Christ.

In a way. As A.Paul says at Hebrews 1:3, Jesus is "the perfect copy of [God's] nature" (NJB) and 1 Cor 15:27 says that God has made all things, excepting himself, subject to Jesus and Col 1:18 ,19 says that it pleases the Father=God that Jesus should have pre-eminence in all things. Jesus is not the source or cause of his empowerment, his Father is. The Son is not subjugated by the Father, but willingly subjects himself to the Father because he is of the same mind as the Father, and has the same will and love in regards to us. (Phil 2:6-11; 1 Cor 15:28; Heb 5:5-10)
To be precise, in the threads I said in John's vision the face of God is seen. As for God being invisible, well that is what the scriptures say of God (eg: Col 1:15). I often cite Rom 1:17-20, read them. Verse 19 says ""that which may be known of God is manifested" and verse 20 says that "the invisible things of [God] from the creation of the world are clearly seen". Yes God is invisible but we can perceive (see) him through his works.

Can we see the face of God? You say you are Hebrew, so you of all persons should know the idiom in which "to see the King's face" is meant. In Hebrew idiom, since the time of Adam, God has turned his face from mankind - that is removed himself from direct fellowship. Now Revelation is talking of a future event, when we will "see God's face", in Hebrew idiom, God will turn his face towards us, God will allow us to have the same personal relationship with him as Adam had. Rev uses metaphors, symbolism, figurative language so man can comprehend the import of John's vision. Does God have a face such as those we see in creation? According to A.Paul no man knows the things of God (1 Cor 2:11) so the best man can do is use language which gives a man perception.

Context is a marvelous thing. The scriptures become so clear and easily understood when they are read in context, instead of isolating and focusing on a bit of text one thinks proves ones theories. For instance the "descended" part of Eph 4:10 relates to "descended first into the lower parts of the earth" (Eph 4:9) and the "ascended" refers to both the resurrection and ascension. Ephesians 4:7-16 corresponds to Ephesians 1:17-23 wherein everything that Jesus does and all his power is attributed to "the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father" including the filling of "all in all". And what is that all things will be filled with, well in the believers case Ephesians 3:19 says "with all the fullness of God."

and the context of the passage is that we cannot hide from God. To believe that God is physically in things (fills them) is called pantheism, which leads to people worshipping the things created, not the creator of all things. Christians reject pantheism.


I've reconstructed the sequence of posts leading to your next remark. I'm still waiting for your explanation of John 17:21-23. Quoting Isa 44:6 out of context is a non answer. Nor is diverting attention away from Isaiah, by randomly quoting Genesis. If you have no answer to John 17:21-23, just say so and we'll close this thread.
A.Paul's exact words are "man is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of the man." A.Paul does not apply the word image to woman. In the part of my post you cut I said "Maybe 2 Cor 3:18 gives us a guide to what image means" which you have tried to avoid. As you also avoid answering "By the theory presented in your posts: Jesus is just the fleshy body that "the Spirit" possessed. if Jesus is just a man and all men are created in God's image, how then are we changed into the image of Jesus?" If you haven't an answer just say so! It is preferable to you going off on tangents and quoting random scriptures that have nothing to do with the main topic.
Eph 4:10 is discussed above.

Well as far as I know, your teaching isn't in the bible but it is in a lot of pagan religions. If you explain your reasoning using the scriptures you would be sharing your light with me. Thats the type of thing Christians do.
Well as I'm the only one here that quotes scripture in context, substantiates my understanding by quoting supporting scriptures, communicate my understanding by using biblical commentary to avoid misunderstanding it is pretty obvious which of is uses the bible to support their teaching. Your random isolation of bits of texts might be from scripture but your teaching is not supported in the bible. If your teaching was in the bible you could easily refute what Christians have believed for nearly two thousand years.
Scripture says all things are of God the Father and through the Lord Jesus Christ. Also it pleased God that in his Son should have pre-eminence. A.Paul in Ephesians calls God, the "God of our Lord Jesus Christ". Of the two of us, it is not I that reject the teaching of the bible.
You yourself have said that "the Word" is the physical "voice of God"; so your God didn't become flesh. Anyway, you raised this above and I've replied above. Repeating yourself over and over justs show you are insecure in your teaching.

You are amusing. First you accuse me making Jesus God, now you are saying I deny Jesus' deity. Which is it?
According to A.Paul God the Father at 1 Cor 8:6 & Eph 4:6 is
1. the God of our Lord Jesus Christ Eph 1:17
2. the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ Eph 3:14
3. God raised up Christ (eg: 1 Cor 15:15)
4. It pleased God that the Son, through who he made all things, should have pre-eminence in all things (eg: Col 1:15-19)
1 Cor 8:6 & Eph 4:6 talk of two individualities: God the Father and his Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Deny the scriptures all you want but you can't escape what is clearly written.
Which makes the Lord Jesus Christ at 1 Cor 8:6 a different individual to God the Father. Unless of course you want to contradict yourself again.

Your comment on Eph 1:17 proves 1 Cor 8:6 is talking about two individuals. Yes there is one God the creator=the Father and there is also the one through whom he created all things=the Lord Jesus Christ. But as you deny the pre-existence of the Son, you can't accept this, so you have to ignore scripture and contradict yourself (as you do above).
Eph 4:10 & Jer 23:24 are discussed above. Repeating yourself just shows you are feeling vulnerable.

I have always agreed with the scriptures and said there is only one God=the Father of whom are all things and one Lord=Jesus Christ through whom God created all things. Have no idea why you confuse the roles and need to deny Jesus Christ has purchased us with his blood and God has "highly exalted him" making him Lord to us (Phil 2:6-11; Acts 20:28; 1 Cor 8:6).

You keep on saying Jesus is not God but another god. why are you foollng yourself- you have two gods.

Kind regards
John From Ebla

[apostoli]

You keep on saying Jesus is not God but another god. why are you foollng yourself- you have two gods.

I have one God=the Father of our Kyrios (master,owner,lord)=Jesus Christ. Not my words. The plain emphatic teaching of the Christian scriptures. I don't know why you confuse the roles. The scriptures plainly say that God has subjected all things unto his Son; that God has exhalted his Son. To reject this teaching, is to reject the words of the apostle Paul! He says these things at Phil 2:9-11; Eph 1:21-22; 1 Cor 15:27-28.

Why do you reject the apostle Paul's teaching?

[John from Ebla]

I have one God=the Father of our Kyrios (master,owner,lord)=Jesus Christ. Not my words. The plain emphatic teaching of the Christian scriptures. I don't know why you confuse the roles. The scriptures plainly say that God has subjected all things unto his Son; that God has exhalted his Son. To reject this teaching, is to reject the words of the apostle Paul! He says these things at Phil 2:9-11; Eph 1:21-22; 1 Cor 15:27-28.

Why do you reject the apostle Paul's teaching?

But if he is not God then he is another god. You have another god. Scriptures do not say he is another god- JW do. John 1:1 say he is God.

Kind regards
John From Ebla

[apostoli]

You keep on saying Jesus is not God but another god. why are you foollng yourself- you have two gods.

I have one God=the Father of our Kyrios (master,owner,lord)=Jesus Christ. Not my words. The plain emphatic teaching of the Christian scriptures. I don't know why you confuse the roles. The scriptures plainly say that God has subjected all things unto his Son; that God has exhalted his Son. To reject this teaching, is to reject the words of the apostle Paul! He says these things at Phil 2:9-11; Eph 1:21-22; 1 Cor 15:27-28.

Why do you reject the apostle Paul's teaching?

But if he is not God then he is another god. You have another god. Scriptures do not say he is another god- JW do. John 1:1 say he is God.

I'm not concerned by what JWs say but rather what the bible says. The Greek of John 1:1 does not say that "the Word was God himself" but "theos en o logos" which the best authorities give to mean that "the Logos has the same nature as God." That is a big difference.

[John from Ebla]

I'm not concerned by what JWs say but rather what the bible says. The Greek of John 1:1 does not say that "the Word was God himself" but "theos en o logos" which the best authorities give to mean that "the Logos has the same nature as God." That is a big difference.

l am sticking to one thread because the idea of 4 different threads for One Lord and God is stupid. l will only reply to JFE- REV 5:7 One Lord God (Moderator take note- Four different threads for the One LORD God and we end up posting about the same thing in all four.)

Kind regards
John From Ebla

[Provoker]

Hi guys:
Is it not painfully obvious why this very same debate has gone unresolved for more than 1500 years? There are individual verses, and passages, for both sides of the arguement. The reason for that is, that verses do not represent the bible story! They are simply meaningless bits of text until they are seen in the context of the whole story.
If one interprets bible events in the context of the flowing story contained in the text, he will automaticly know whether or not Jesus is God.
If I were to enter this debate to show you the definitive resolution to this question, would you say to me; "Christians have been debating this subject for 1500 years, so don't you try to tell us how to debate it"?

[apostoli]

l am sticking to one thread because the idea of 4 different threads for One Lord and God is stupid. l will only reply to JFE- REV 5:7 One Lord God (Moderator take note- Four different threads for the One LORD God and we end up posting about the same thing in all four.)

Thats good for me. Makes my life easier!

My intention had been to focus on a "single topic", namely the scripture mentioned in the topic heading. That didn't happen, as in most cases you avoided responding to the initiating post by diverting off on a tangent and thus...