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Pastor Protection Bill derail

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Starlight View Post
    some goal-post moving and a very short list of quotes against abortion that told me nothing much at all about why Christians would naturally be against it
    You honestly don't understand why Christians (of any time period) would have a problem with dismembering a small baby using hooks and spikes?

    "Among surgeons' tools there is a certain instrument that is formed with a nicely-adjusted flexible frame for first of all opening the uterus and then keeping it open. It also has a circular blade, by means of which the limbs within the womb are dissected with careful, but unflinching care. Its last appendage is a blunted or covered hook, by which the entire fetus is extracted by a violent delivery. There is also a copper needle or spike, by which the actual death is brought about in this treacherous robbery of life. From its infanticide function, they give it a name, "killer of the infant" --- which infant, of course, had once been alive" (Tertullian)
    "Some people feel guilty about their anxieties and regard them as a defect of faith but they are afflictions, not sins. Like all afflictions, they are, if we can so take them, our share in the passion of Christ." - That Guy Everyone Quotes

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    • #32
      There's not much logic to the abortion position. Apparently if its inside the womb its abortion, but if its outside its infanticide. Or if its murder, women still ought to have the right to murder (usually said as "I don't make judgements, but I believe women have a choice" That's what's being defended today. Its utter insanity.

      When Peter Singer said that according to utilitarian ethics there would be nothing wrong with the abortion of newborns, he wasn't crazy, he simple applied the logic consistently once you accept that even late term abortions aren't wrong.

      Even if the baby is perfectly viable inside the womb, a woman can get an abortion two weeks before she's about to give birth, for several reasons, especially if the child is handicapped. "Shh, don't use the eugenics word, we're not ableists at all... really we're not."

      Yes most abortions take place in the first trimester, but if that's the case Starlight, and all liberals agree that late term abortions are horrible, why is it so hard to pass a simple law banning partial birth abortion and why is it so controversial to investigate Planned Parenthood and other abortion mills for rumors regarding post-birth abortion?

      Christians are simple being consistent, if its inside the womb its infanticide, if its outside its infanticide. We might have to invent new terminology, feticide, embriocide. But its a wrongful, unjust, violation of a human beings right to live. No person has the right to use medicine towards the specific end of killing another human being for the sake of their own welfare. This is as true for men, as it is for women.
      Last edited by Leonhard; 04-26-2015, 03:19 PM.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by hamster View Post
        You honestly don't understand why Christians (of any time period) would have a problem with dismembering a small baby using hooks and spikes?
        As you well know, the entire abortion debate centers on the interpretation of what the fetus is. Whether it is thought of as fully-human with a soul, or as a potential-human that is still developing. As such, to say a fetus is just a 'small baby' begs the question, and in fact can lead to outright deception: I've seen anti-abortion groups going around displaying 'models' of fetuses at different ages (1st trimester etc) and their models are fully-developed human babies that have been scaled down in size, which deceives the viewer into thinking a fetus at that time of development looks anything remotely like a fully-developed human baby rather than like an alien.

        The bizarre thing about the abortion debate is the widespread tendency of Christians within the US within the last 30-40 years to sign-on to a view that says that the fetus isn't a developing potential human as biology tells us it is, but rather endorse a view that claims it is a full and complete human apparently including a soul. Whereas go back 60 years and such a position was regarded as a weird-Catholic-only viewpoint. Fortunately, the zealousness seems largely confined to the US still.
        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Starlight View Post
          As you well know, the entire abortion debate centers on the interpretation of what the fetus is. Whether it is thought of as fully-human with a soul, or as a potential-human that is still developing.[] As such, to say a fetus is just a 'small baby' begs the question, and in fact can lead to outright deception: I've seen anti-abortion groups going around displaying 'models' of fetuses at different ages (1st trimester etc) and their models are fully-developed human babies that have been scaled down in size, which deceives the viewer into thinking a fetus at that time of development looks anything remotely like a fully-developed human baby rather than like an alien.

          The bizarre thing about the abortion debate is the widespread tendency of Christians within the US within the last 30-40 years to sign-on to a view that says that the fetus isn't a developing potential human as biology tells us it is, but rather endorse a view that claims it is a full and complete human apparently including a soul. Whereas go back 60 years and such a position was regarded as a weird-Catholic-only viewpoint. Fortunately, the zealousness seems largely confined to the US still.
          At what point does the potential-human actually become a for really human?
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            At what point does the potential-human actually become a for really human?
            Since it's a bit of a continuum, it's really a question about how far along the continuum it needs to travel before it crosses an arbitrary line in the sand. Everyone is going to draw that line in a different place, and for any purposes of abortion most people are going to want to build-in a significant buffer. Thus we get the situation where a very large number of people are happy with first-trimester abortions, a small number are happy with later-term abortions, and only a very small number are okay with infanticide.
            "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
            "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
            "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

            Comment


            • #36
              On my way to bed after a late night walk.

              As you well know, the entire abortion debate centers on the interpretation of what the fetus is.
              And I've seen pro-abortionists ("Sshhh, we're not pro-abortion, we want it to be rare... but it should be available for free, and its a glorious beautiful thing for women to have this available.") argue that it's all about womens rights. Some go so far as to agree that its murder, but that its the womans right to have be able to do what she wants with her body. When it comes time to defend this, expect bizarre analogies drawn of an alien sentient parasite invading you, and whether you had a right to kill it, or waking up connected as a lifesupport to someone else.

              Some contention is made of course, that something magical occurs when the baby passes the birth canal, namely they gain their rights to life at that point. Though one slate article by a pro-abortionist who tries to be critical of an argument for after-birth abortion proposed by two philosophers, fails to conclude anything but suggest that something has occured at birth, and offers it as an open question to his fellow abortion supporters.

              http://www.slate.com/articles/health...anticide_.html

              Read that and try to convince me that we Christians won't be found in 2050 outside of hospitals praying for the born babies about to be killed.

              I've seen anti-abortion groups going around displaying 'models' of fetuses at different ages (1st trimester etc) and their models are fully-developed human babies that have been scaled down in size
              I agree, this is counterproductive, we've got enough real shots of fetii at those stages and pictures of what abortion looks like.

              Whereas go back 60 years and such a position was regarded as a weird-Catholic-only viewpoint.
              We did have a good influence on our protestant brothers here.

              Fortunately, the zealousness seems largely confined to the US still.
              Depends on what you mean with zealousness. You have to understand that the liberal picture of crowds shouting and abusing women on their ways to the abortion mills is largely propaganda. Mainly its just a quiet group praying rosaries, or holding signs, though even that gets classified as abuse of course.
              Last edited by Leonhard; 04-26-2015, 05:34 PM.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                Since it's a bit of a continuum, it's really a question about how far along the continuum it needs to travel before it crosses an arbitrary line in the sand. Everyone is going to draw that line in a different place, and for any purposes of abortion most people are going to want to build-in a significant buffer. Thus we get the situation where a very large number of people are happy with first-trimester abortions, a small number are happy with later-term abortions, and only a very small number are okay with infanticide.
                Typical non-answer. Since you can't say when the potential-human actually becomes a for really human, how do you know you're not killing a for really human?
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Biology says nothing about a fetus being a potential human. A fetus is not a "fully-developed" human, certainly, but neither is an infant or a teenager. It's still a member of the Homo sapiens species.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                    Some contention is made of course, that something magical occurs when the baby passes the birth canal, namely they gain their rights to life at that point.
                    Well naturally any rights-based argument that says "woman have a right to do what they want to their own bodies" or somesuch stops being effective at the moment of birth. I'm not really that enthusiastic about that sort of argument, but obviously to any person who believed it the moment the baby passes out of the birth canal, then an abortion is no longer validated.

                    I'm vastly more inclined towards developmental arguments regarding general lack of, or low level of, cognitive functioning of the fetus. For this reason I am a strong supporter of animal rights: Insofar as any given animal has a significant amount of consciousness and intelligence I think we need to treat it with dignity and respect. (Although I'm not a vegetarian, but I have thought a few times that maybe I should become one) But if the human fetus can be demonstrated to have less going-on in its brain than your average cow, then I can't see much to object to in its death.

                    Depends on what you mean with zealousness. You have to understand that the liberal picture of crowds shouting and abusing women on their ways to the abortion mills is largely propaganda. Mainly its just a quiet group praying rosaries, or holding signs, though even that gets classified as abuse of course.
                    I've heard it claimed that most abortion clinics in the US have anti-abortionists outside them on a daily basis, who will generally approach any woman entering to try to talk her out of it. It was mentioned in news coverage of a Supreme Court decision last year which struck down a state's law that anti-abortionists had to stay 35 feet away from the entrance to the clinics. I don't know the truth of it, but that's what was claimed.
                    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      I've heard it claimed that most abortion clinics in the US have anti-abortionists outside them on a daily basis, who will generally approach any woman entering to try to talk her out of it. It was mentioned in news coverage of a Supreme Court decision last year which struck down a state's law that anti-abortionists had to stay 35 feet away from the entrance to the clinics. I don't know the truth of it, but that's what was claimed.
                      How many abortion protests have you volunteered to be part of? I've got a bigger sample between my friends who do that reguarly than you I bet, though that's only Denmark. Expect middle age people, quietly praying rosaries. Same with the Catholic's I know in the US. That's my testimonial. I've never seen it get bad, not even once.

                      Log onto any pro-abortion website documenting the horror of Christian protests of abortion mills. You'll of course get plenty of testimonials. The narrative is very clear, its a lot of big muscular guys, and threatening women, screaming at the people as they walk by. I don't doubt there's situations were people do act bad, just as I know that some pro-abortionists have gotten violent with abortion protesters.

                      But you won't get a count. No pro-abortion website will attempt to do a real systematic count of this. If they did, there's little doubt that it would be 95%+ middle aged people doing a quiet protest, handing out pamphlets, and if they do talk to the person, its not in a shout but just pleaing with them "Please don't do this, its murder."

                      Which ironically a large percentage of those going to an abortion mill thinks it is. I've heard of many abortion escorts relating how these women are often crying and thinking that they're going to go to hell.
                      Last edited by Leonhard; 04-26-2015, 06:11 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                        Well naturally any rights-based argument that says "woman have a right to do what they want to their own bodies" or somesuch stops being effective at the moment of birth.
                        Does that freedom include the right to kill the baby? Not merely extract it and do everything in the power of a hospital to keep it alive... say if this takes place after the period where baby becomes viable as a prematurely born baby?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                          How many abortion protests have you volunteered to be part of? I've got a bigger sample than you I bet, though that's only Denmark. Expect middle age people, quietly praying rosaries. Same withe Catholic's I know. That's my testimonial. I've never seen it get bad, not even once.

                          Log onto any pro-abortion website documenting the horror of Christian protests of abortion mills. You'll of course get plenty of testimonials. The narrative is very clear, its a lot of big muscular guys, and threatening women, screaming at the people as they walk by. I don't doubt there's situations were people do act bad, just as I know that some pro-abortionists have gotten violent with abortion protesters.

                          But you won't get a count. No pro-abortion website will attempt to do a real systematic count of this. If they did, there's little doubt that it would be 95%+ middle aged people doing a quiet protest, handing out pamphlets, and if they do talk to the person, its not in a shout but just pleaing with them "Please don't do this, its murder."

                          Which ironically a large percentage of those going to an abortion mill thinks it is. I've heard of many abortion escorts relating how these women are often crying and thinking that they're going to go to hell.
                          The thing is that rarely happens in the US either and dimbulb is believing propaganda because he'll do anything to defend his murderous ideology that it is ok to have a baby violently ripped from the womb. Remember, he's defending the same group that stood on the Texas state legislator and yelled, "Hail Satan!" but this story was ignored by the mainstream media because it didn't make his precious group look good.
                          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Hesitantly dipping my toe into these fraught waters, here are my damned liberal but far from settled views about abortion. (although I don't understand what this has to do with the OP and perhaps should have its own derail thread).

                            There definitely is a developmental continuum from zygote to foetus to baby. IF God exists then He doesn't seem too concerned about spontaneous abortion which, I have read, account for a half of all fertilised eggs. This is medically defined to be within 12 weeks from conception. Our 'natural' human reaction to this event does not seem to match the reaction we have to the death of a baby. We may be disappointed, we may grieve a little, but it does not seem to match our emotions about a cot death. For consistencies sake, I think anti-abortion advocates ought to be just as concerned and just as incensed about this.

                            As for chosen abortion, I have very mixed feelings. I certainly do not believe in late term abortions. So many options exist nowadays that I can't see any reason for them to occur. I believe a late term foetus has a well enough developed nervous system to make abortion a savage and cruel event.

                            However, the question is murkier when we look at earlier term abortions. I think we should be guided by the science here to ensure we are not causing the suffering of a self aware being.

                            See here

                            To some extent our 'line in the sand' will be a little arbitrary. Personally I see that line from about 8 to 12 weeks. I view abortion as a regrettable option up to this line in the sand.

                            IF my criteria about not causing undue suffering are accepted, then women (and their partners) ought to have the legal right to procure a safe medical procedure that terminates an early term embryo/foetus. I think this window of opportunity ought to be a small one, limited as I have suggested. As long as there is sufficient time between being aware one is pregnant and the decision to terminate, then I can see no legitimate reason for later term abortions.

                            As always, I'm speaking in general terms and there will always be situations that are more complex, morally and ethically. I believe these could be mediated by an ethics type board (such as hospitals have) with members drawn from various interest groups.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                              Does that freedom include the right to kill the baby? Not merely extract it and do everything in the power of a hospital to keep it alive... say if this takes place after the period where baby becomes viable as a prematurely born baby?
                              Remember, dimbulb's disgusting ideology says that it is a horrible thing to not want to bake a cake for a gay wedding, but it ok to have a baby dismembered in the womb and violent ripped out.
                              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                                Hesitantly dipping my toe into these fraught waters, here are my damned liberal but far from settled views about abortion. (although I don't understand what this has to do with the OP and perhaps should have its own derail thread).

                                There definitely is a developmental continuum from zygote to foetus to baby. IF God exists then He doesn't seem too concerned about spontaneous abortion which, I have read, account for a half of all fertilised eggs. This is medically defined to be within 12 weeks from conception. Our 'natural' human reaction to this event does not seem to match the reaction we have to the death of a baby. We may be disappointed, we may grieve a little, but it does not seem to match our emotions about a cot death. For consistencies sake, I think anti-abortion advocates ought to be just as concerned and just as incensed about this.

                                As for chosen abortion, I have very mixed feelings. I certainly do not believe in late term abortions. So many options exist nowadays that I can't see any reason for them to occur. I believe a late term foetus has a well enough developed nervous system to make abortion a savage and cruel event.

                                However, the question is murkier when we look at earlier term abortions. I think we should be guided by the science here to ensure we are not causing the suffering of a self aware being.

                                See here

                                To some extent our 'line in the sand' will be a little arbitrary. Personally I see that line from about 8 to 12 weeks. I view abortion as a regrettable option up to this line in the sand.

                                IF my criteria about not causing undue suffering are accepted, then women (and their partners) ought to have the legal right to procure a safe medical procedure that terminates an early term embryo/foetus. I think this window of opportunity ought to be a small one, limited as I have suggested. As long as there is sufficient time between being aware one is pregnant and the decision to terminate, then I can see no legitimate reason for later term abortions.

                                As always, I'm speaking in general terms and there will always be situations that are more complex, morally and ethically. I believe these could be mediated by an ethics type board (such as hospitals have) with members drawn from various interest groups.
                                Can you please explain what makes your set criteria of x time in the womb makes it wrong to murder your own child? Why set it at that time and not another time?
                                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

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