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  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Did you read the WHOLE thread, Pman? Particularly where Sam implied that our support for HB3567 would, in effect, result in smaller congregations? It was from there that we went into what I believe is the actual problem with the "smaller congregations", which are most notably the liberal ones. Conservative congregations are actually growing.

    Now, what could be a factor in a congregation growing? EVANGELISM!!!! More CONVERTS!
    Well, its more complicated than that, but groups without outreach will always be small. Also musn't skimp on the holiness and the conversion of the heart. Its all important. Different discussion though. Its late here. Goodnight, nice talking to you guys. That goes for you Sam and you Pancreasman.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
      Well, its more complicated than that,
      Yes, it is. But reaching the unchurched (as opposed to "stealing sheep" is an important factor)

      but groups without outreach will always be small. Also musn't skimp on the holiness and the conversion of the heart. Its all important. Different discussion though. Its late here. Goodnight, nice talking to you guys. That goes for you Sam and you Pancreasman.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
        CP, it was because of Christians like you that I left Christianity. If Christians had all been like Sam I would still call myself a Christian today. In your enthusiasm to head-count your direct converts you seem to be overlooking the difficulty of counting the number of people your awful attitude has driven away.
        What? So er, your faith was based on your emotions and positions on other people?
        "It's evolution; every time you invent something fool-proof, the world invents a better fool."
        -Unknown

        "Preach the gospel, and if necessary use words." - Most likely St.Francis


        I find that evolution is the best proof of God.
        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        I support the :
        sigpic

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Irate Canadian View Post
          What? So er, your faith was based on your emotions and positions on other people?
          Somehow, I missed that post!
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
            I think God had enough of it.

            And I think Christ's Mother intervened on my behalf... I don't really like to think of what might have happened if I hadn't gotten on a good track again.
            I praise God that you did, Leon!
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Irate Canadian View Post
              What? So er, your faith was based on your emotions and positions on other people?
              acctually IC I suspect Starlights leaving of the faith if he ever had it was because he wants to be able to sin with impunity so if God calls what he wants to do a sin then he does not want God. pure and simple he wants to make up a god who will let him do what he wants. he does not want the TRUE God and never did. So falsly accuses those who accept that God calls certain behaviors sin and told him so are the ones of driving him away when it was he who ran away because he wanted tell God what to do instead of letting God be God and obey Him(God that is)
              Last edited by RumTumTugger; 04-24-2015, 08:48 PM.

              Comment




              • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                In your enthusiasm to head-count your direct converts you seem to be overlooking the difficulty of counting the number of people your awful attitude has driven away.
                Dang! It happened again. The manure spreader malfunctioned and threw the whole load all at once!
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by RumTumTugger View Post
                  acctually IC I suspect Starlights leaving of the faith if he ever had it was because he wants to be able to sin with impunity so if God calls what he wants to do a sin then he does not want God. pure and simple he wants to make up a god who will let him do what he wants. he does not want the TRUE God and never did.
                  I'm glad we have people who can read motivations of strangers so well.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                    CP, it was because of Christians like you that I left Christianity. If Christians had all been like Sam I would still call myself a Christian today. In your enthusiasm to head-count your direct converts you seem to be overlooking the difficulty of counting the number of people your awful attitude has driven away.
                    I think what Starlight means here is that if every Christian believed in the same politics that he does, he would still be a Christian. He seems to be one of the many that puts politics above his own faith. And if his politics clashes with said faith, he will choose the former over the latter every time. If someone believes their personal politics trumps everything else, including belief in God, was it that big of a loss?
                    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Irate Canadian View Post
                      What? So er, your faith was based on your emotions and positions on other people?
                      Whether I am willing to be associated with "Christianity" or call myself a "Christian" depends on what I perceive "Christianity" and "Christians" to be. When my perception of Christians was of those who have a loving, kind, caring and thoughtful attitude toward others and who are passionately concerned with the plight of the poor and helping those in need in our society (as Sam seems an able ambassador of), then I was quite happy to call myself a "Christian" and be associated with "Christianity".

                      For a long time I overlooked those so-called Christians who were less-than-loving, less-than-kind, less-than-caring, who showed little compassion for the poor, and who thought the bible told them to be anti-gay, and considered those people not real Christians. The tipping point really came when I realized the extent to which Christians around the world were anti-gay - that it wasn't just a few quacks with terrible exegesis but it was in fact the majority of "Christians" world-wide who were really and for-real against giving rights to the oppressed or helping the persecuted and that in fact they were the ones oppressing the weak in the name of Christ. For me that was the tipping point where I said to myself "well, I can't really justify defining 'true Christianity' based on my own understanding of the bible and putting the majority of Christians in the 'not-true-Christians' basket. I've just got to accept that the majority of Christians do in fact get to define what 'Christianity' really is. That means that I've got to accept that all those 'Christians' that I've been writing-off as 'not-true-Christians' due to them being unloving, uncharitable, self-righteous, anti-gay, hypocritical, ignorant, bible-betraying, Christ-unlike, jerks, who I didn't want to be associated with, are actually 'Christians'. Hmm, well I don't want to be associated with them, so I don't want to call myself a 'Christian'."

                      I get the impression that this general trend is happening to quite a lot of people. A hundred years ago there was a huge contingent of liberal Christians and nominal Christians, who balanced out the fundamentalists and made "Christianity" palatable to everyone, because everyone could find something to like. Over the decades, increasingly the nominal and liberal Christians have dropped out of churches and out of participation in Christian groups. This has meant that those within Christian groups have become increasingly only-fundamentalists with very little balance. The result is that a lot of moderate Christians are getting increasingly scared-off from Christian groups as the fundamentalists make it a matter of "it's my way or the highway", with various litmus tests of faith - eg opposition to gay marriage, opposition to evolution, opposition to abortion - that serve to alienate moderate Christians.
                      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                        Whether I am willing to be associated with "Christianity" or call myself a "Christian" depends on what I perceive "Christianity" and "Christians" to be. When my perception of Christians was of those who have a loving, kind, caring and thoughtful attitude toward others and who are passionately concerned with the plight of the poor and helping those in need in our society (as Sam seems an able ambassador of), then I was quite happy to call myself a "Christian" and be associated with "Christianity".

                        For a long time I overlooked those so-called Christians who were less-than-loving, less-than-kind, less-than-caring, who showed little compassion for the poor, and who thought the bible told them to be anti-gay, and considered those people not real Christians. The tipping point really came when I realized the extent to which Christians around the world were anti-gay - that it wasn't just a few quacks with terrible exegesis but it was in fact the majority of "Christians" world-wide who were really and for-real against giving rights to the oppressed or helping the persecuted and that in fact they were the ones oppressing the weak in the name of Christ. For me that was the tipping point where I said to myself "well, I can't really justify defining 'true Christianity' based on my own understanding of the bible and putting the majority of Christians in the 'not-true-Christians' basket. I've just got to accept that the majority of Christians do in fact get to define what 'Christianity' really is. That means that I've got to accept that all those 'Christians' that I've been writing-off as 'not-true-Christians' due to them being unloving, uncharitable, self-righteous, anti-gay, hypocritical, ignorant, bible-betraying, Christ-unlike, jerks, who I didn't want to be associated with, are actually 'Christians'. Hmm, well I don't want to be associated with them, so I don't want to call myself a 'Christian'."

                        I get the impression that this general trend is happening to quite a lot of people. A hundred years ago there was a huge contingent of liberal Christians and nominal Christians, who balanced out the fundamentalists and made "Christianity" palatable to everyone, because everyone could find something to like. Over the decades, increasingly the nominal and liberal Christians have dropped out of churches and out of participation in Christian groups. This has meant that those within Christian groups have become increasingly only-fundamentalists with very little balance. The result is that a lot of moderate Christians are getting increasingly scared-off from Christian groups as the fundamentalists make it a matter of "it's my way or the highway", with various litmus tests of faith - eg opposition to gay marriage, opposition to evolution, opposition to abortion - that serve to alienate moderate Christians.
                        You don't become or un-become a Christian based on the behaviour of some (most) Christians. You un-become a Christian because you no longer believe its major tenets are true.

                        Having said that, I do get how the behaviour of Christians is problematic IF you expect Christians, as a matter of doctrine, to behave better in general in line with Gal 5:22.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                          Whether I am willing to be associated with "Christianity" or call myself a "Christian" depends on what I perceive "Christianity" and "Christians" to be. When my perception of Christians was of those who have a loving, kind, caring and thoughtful attitude toward others and who are passionately concerned with the plight of the poor and helping those in need in our society (as Sam seems an able ambassador of), then I was quite happy to call myself a "Christian" and be associated with "Christianity".

                          For a long time I overlooked those so-called Christians who were less-than-loving, less-than-kind, less-than-caring, who showed little compassion for the poor, and who thought the bible told them to be anti-gay, and considered those people not real Christians. The tipping point really came when I realized the extent to which Christians around the world were anti-gay - that it wasn't just a few quacks with terrible exegesis but it was in fact the majority of "Christians" world-wide who were really and for-real against giving rights to the oppressed or helping the persecuted and that in fact they were the ones oppressing the weak in the name of Christ. For me that was the tipping point where I said to myself "well, I can't really justify defining 'true Christianity' based on my own understanding of the bible and putting the majority of Christians in the 'not-true-Christians' basket. I've just got to accept that the majority of Christians do in fact get to define what 'Christianity' really is. That means that I've got to accept that all those 'Christians' that I've been writing-off as 'not-true-Christians' due to them being unloving, uncharitable, self-righteous, anti-gay, hypocritical, ignorant, bible-betraying, Christ-unlike, jerks, who I didn't want to be associated with, are actually 'Christians'. Hmm, well I don't want to be associated with them, so I don't want to call myself a 'Christian'."

                          I get the impression that this general trend is happening to quite a lot of people. A hundred years ago there was a huge contingent of liberal Christians and nominal Christians, who balanced out the fundamentalists and made "Christianity" palatable to everyone, because everyone could find something to like. Over the decades, increasingly the nominal and liberal Christians have dropped out of churches and out of participation in Christian groups. This has meant that those within Christian groups have become increasingly only-fundamentalists with very little balance. The result is that a lot of moderate Christians are getting increasingly scared-off from Christian groups as the fundamentalists make it a matter of "it's my way or the highway", with various litmus tests of faith - eg opposition to gay marriage, opposition to evolution, opposition to abortion - that serve to alienate moderate Christians.
                          Perhaps you have a hard time grasping the concept that a Christian can be both passionate about soulwinning AND passionate about the plight of the poor. Our Church doesn't just talk the talk or blog about the social issues - we put our time and money where our mouth is. We're involved in feeding the poor, clothing the naked, women's shelters, a car clinic for single mothers, helping high school dropouts with education, habitat for humanity... and we just voted last Sunday to double our mission giving. We're actually in the process of evaluating where else we can be involved in the community without duplicating the efforts of others.

                          But, heck, here I go "bragging" again, so I should just shut up and let guys like you spew forth your ignorance and hate.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                            But, heck, here I go "bragging" again, so I should just shut up and let guys like you spew forth your ignorance and hate.
                            Hate? It is possible to disapprove and disagree without hate.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                              Hate? It is possible to disapprove and disagree without hate.
                              Point taken. But I'm not feeling the love.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                Point taken. But I'm not feeling the love.
                                Disagreement without rancour is spelled 'passive aggressive'.

                                Comment

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