Charles Taze Russell - The Truth!

[Krusader]

Now, ask yourselves this: would God choose a man with occult beliefs, whose wife accused him of illicit sexual activity with other women (and who undoubtedly had questionable relationships with women to whom he was not married), to be the founder of God's organization on earth? The Watchtower is quick to condemn "religionists," is it not? Remember it was Rutherford who taught that "religion was a snare." Well, don't you think the Witnesses have gotten snared in Russell's theological trap? Today, the Society actively promotes Russell's teachings (however much they wish to distance themselves from him). My question: why not just put a big old pyramid as the logo for the Watchtower? Or, if Russell was wrong about the pyramid, could he have been wrong about a whole bunch of other things? Such as, Christ's invisible "return" in 1914?

Here's some info on the false teacher, C.T. Russell:

http://www.geocities.com/paulblizard/russell.html

[Meh_Gerbil]

Now, ask yourselves this: would God choose a man with occult beliefs, whose wife accused him of adultery, and who had questionable relationships with women, to be the founder of God's organization on earth? The Watchtower is quick to condemn "religionists," is it not? Remember it was Rutherford who taught that "religion was a snare." Well, don't you think the Witnesses have gotten snared in Russell's theological trap? Today, the Society actively promotes Russell's teachings (however much they wish to distance themselves from him). My question: why not just put a big old pyramid as the logo for the Watchtower? Or, if Russell was wrong about the pyramid, could he have been wrong about a whole bunch of other things? Such as, Christ's invisible "return" in 1914?

Here's some info on the false teacher, C.T. Russell:

http://www.geocities.com/paulblizard/russell.html

I'm not a JW, but based on G_d's actions in the past I'd have to say that CT Russell is exactly the sort of person G_d would pick.

See:
Jacob
Jonah
Saul
David
etc.

[Krusader]

I'm not a JW, but based on G_d's actions in the past I'd have to say that CT Russell is exactly the sort of person G_d would pick.

See:
Jacob
Jonah
Saul
David
etc.

I understand what you're saying, but we are not talking about Old Testament leaders here. This is a man who was claiming to be setting up God's mouthpiece on earth, and at the SAME time, sharing the bed of women to whom he was not married.

If you accept this, then please apologize to Joseph Smith.

[technomage]

I'm not a JW, but based on G_d's actions in the past I'd have to say that CT Russell is exactly the sort of person G_d would pick.

See:
Jacob
Jonah
Saul
David
etc.

MG's got a point, Crusader: God seems to have a penchant for using people, and people are imperfect.

[Krusader]

MG's got a point, Crusader: God seems to have a penchant for using people, and people are imperfect.

Well, Cup, we are all totally imperfect. However, when you are claiming that the magazine you are editing is the mouthpiece of God - wouldn't you expect the editor to be living in God's will? Doesn't the NT instruct us that the elders must be the husbands of one wife (this would exclude going to bed with other women, I think)? Also, please read the link I provided, especially the testimony of Russell's wife. It's very sad.

Most Christians do not call their denominations the ONLY group on earth doing God's will. The Jehovah's Witnesses, however, make this claim. When one considers the fact that Russell was a member of the "anointed remnant," and, in fact, was initially thought to be the Faithful Servant giving "meat in due season" to the flock, one can see that his lifestyle didn't measure up to the claim.

The Watchtower stakes its claims on Russell being right - but he had feet of clay, as do all false prophets. Christians base their claims on Jesus Christ, whose feet have stomped the serpent's head!

[technomage]

Well, Cup, we are all totally imperfect. However, when you are claiming that the magazine you are editing is the mouthpiece of God - wouldn't you expect the editor to be living in God's will?

*shrug* I certainly would ... but too close an insistance will reduce the number of Psalms severalfold, if we allow the traditional attributions for those Psalms. David was certainly not "living in God's will" during large chunks of his life.

Most Christians do not call their denominations the ONLY group on earth doing God's will.

Eh ... that's an easy claim to make, but hard to actually establish. The JWs do not claim to be a "denomination"--they claim to be the Church, the Body of Christ. You certainly make a distinction between those whom you consider to be outside the Body and those who are within It ... it is only logical that they would, too.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that the JWs are right and you're wrong. But this is not the best framework for your argument, because the (small "o") orthodox Church can also be condemned by the same accusations.

[Krusader]

*shrug* I certainly would ... but too close an insistance will reduce the number of Psalms severalfold, if we allow the traditional attributions for those Psalms. David was certainly not "living in God's will" during large chunks of his life.



Eh ... that's an easy claim to make, but hard to actually establish. The JWs do not claim to be a "denomination"--they claim to be the Church, the Body of Christ. You certainly make a distinction between those whom you consider to be outside the Body and those who are within It ... it is only logical that they would, too.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that the JWs are right and you're wrong. But this is not the best framework for your argument, because the (small "o") orthodox Church can also be condemned by the same accusations.

I'd agree with you, many Christian leaders not only don't meet the mark, but don't even know where the mark is. Especially among the Shepherding sects, where the leaders have often fallen into sexual misconduct because of the high esteem paid them by their female followers (doctors sometimes have the same problems). But, these fallen leaders aren't making the huge claims made by the Watchtower! And these guys sure aren't claiming to be our Mediators (see below).

Technically, the JWs state that only 144,000 anointed followers of Christ are the Body of Christ, which will eventually be made up of 144,001 anointed, transformed spirit-creatures (Christ accounting for that extra one). The 144,001 are the mediators for the Great Crowd, who are not part of the Body of Christ.

Anyway, I think the information on Russell is revealing, and I would recommend anybody thinking of joining up with the Watchtower crowd to carefully look at the leaders of that group, and its origin. Its origin is found in Mr. Russell and his claims. It is, Russell's theology which laid the foundation for the cult. His near deification by his followers (as the faithful servant dispensing meat in due season) was later played down by the Society's leadership - they knew his shortcomings! And, after Russell we have Rutherford who had a whole lot of other issues! That's for another thread!

[Oldmonk]

I'd agree with you, many Christian leaders not only don't meet the mark, but don't even know where the mark is. Especially among the Shepherding sects, where the leaders have often fallen into sexual misconduct because of the high esteem paid them by their female followers (doctors sometimes have the same problems). But, these fallen leaders aren't making the huge claims made by the Watchtower! And these guys sure aren't claiming to be our Mediators (see below).

Technically, the JWs state that only 144,000 anointed followers of Christ are the Body of Christ, which will eventually be made up of 144,001 anointed, transformed spirit-creatures (Christ accounting for that extra one). The 144,001 are the mediators for the Great Crowd, who are not part of the Body of Christ.

Anyway, I think the information on Russell is revealing, and I would recommend anybody thinking of joining up with the Watchtower crowd to carefully look at the leaders of that group, and its origin. Its origin is found in Mr. Russell and his claims. It is, Russell's theology which laid the foundation for the cult. His near deification by his followers (as the faithful servant dispensing meat in due season) was later played down by the Society's leadership - they knew his shortcomings! And, after Russell we have Rutherford who had a whole lot of other issues! That's for another thread!

Well actually a LOT of Russell's theology came from the Ädventist movement started by William Miller. Miller calculated that the world would end in 1844. Of course he was wrong. After another date William Miller admited he was wrong... Unfortunately people like George Storrs , and Ellen G. White couldn't let those dates go so they came up with the expaination that the dates were right just what they perdicted was wrong ( sound a bit familiar??) ! Investigative judgment followed from that.
Russell actually co-authored a book with the wrll known Adventist N.H. Barbour called ;"The Three Worlds" and helped George Storrs with an Adventist magazine.
Actually in all honesty the JW's have held to historic Adventist doctrine while Adventists have made some move towards orthodoxy.

[Krusader]

Well actually a LOT of Russell's theology came from the Ädventist movement started by William Miller. Miller calculated that the world would end in 1844. Of course he was wrong. After another date William Miller admited he was wrong... Unfortunately people like George Storrs , and Ellen G. White couldn't let those dates go so they came up with the expaination that the dates were right just what they perdicted was wrong ( sound a bit familiar??) ! Investigative judgment followed from that.
Russell actually co-authored a book with the wrll known Adventist N.H. Barbour called ;"The Three Worlds" and helped George Storrs with an Adventist magazine.
Actually in all honesty the JW's have held to historic Adventist doctrine while Adventists have made some move towards orthodoxy.

Yes, Adventists played midwife to Russell's heresies.

[Oldmonk]

Yes, Adventists played midwife to Russell's heresies.

What is your take on the Adventists??? Cult or on the fring??? I know a lot of Adventists that have made deep commitments to Christ but still hold on to that false prophet Ellen G. White.
It seems to me that they have reverted back to some old ways theologically speaking and have isolated themselves from the rest of the body. There is more and more emphases on E.G. White as time goes on. Their whole view of "Ïnvestigative judgment " seems to me to take much away from faith as well as their unhistorical view of the Sabbath day.

[Super Cow]

Actually, it is not important what someone did before they started to serve God. (Regardless of whether their method is right or wrong) What is important is how they behave afterwards. If you can demonstrate that C.T. Russell did these things after he founded his organization (which was not called "Jehovah's Witnesses" until the 1930s after his death), and if retained as head after this time, then you can justifiably discredit the entire movement.

Perhaps some forget here that the entire Roman Catholic church in it's present incarnation was founded by Constantine, a Roman emperor who would probably be considered anything but righteous when he created the church. He didn't even consider himself to be upright enough to be officially converted until his deathbed, so that he could continue doing whatever he needed to maintain his empire without having to literally abide by church principles.

[IncRus]

The JWs do not claim to be a "denomination"--they claim to be the Church, the Body of Christ. You certainly make a distinction between those whom you consider to be outside the Body and those who are within It ... it is only logical that they would, too.

According to barryrob, ONLY 144,000 JWs who will go the heaven are the "BODY of Christ." The rest of the JWs who belong to the "great crowd" are NOT the "BODY of Christ." Hence, they will live forever ON EARTH.

[superdan54]

I'm not a JW, but based on G_d's actions in the past I'd have to say that CT Russell is exactly the sort of person G_d would pick.

See:
Jacob
Jonah
Saul
David
etc.

On one hand, I can certainly see your point that God uses "imperfect vessels" to further his kingdom. However, the characters viewed as righteous were always characterized with redemption and devotion to God (cf Psalm 51, Jonah 2, etc..).

While false prophets were used by God, they were never used to bring teaching and instruction to his chosen people. Yes Balaam prophesied in favor of Israel to a pagan king, however he also led Israel astray with his wicked behavior. And as 2 Peter 2 says below, we are NOT to follow the Balaams of the world.

2 Peter 2
1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

...

14 having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children;

15 forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

16 but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet.

17 These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved.

18 For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,

19 promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.

Can you really fit Moses, David, Abraham & others in this category? Now how about Mohammed, Joseph Smith, and Charles Russel? The shoe fits perfectly. Why in the world should we give ear to these Balaams?

[mellentos]

I think it is far better when religions are created my people like John Calvin who just had those who disagreed with him killed... Far better choice of character and integrity on God's part.

The reality is that is if perfection is a requirement to be used of God, then how could any of us do anything useful in the Kingdom of God

[IncRus]

Actually, it is not important what someone did before they started to serve God. (Regardless of whether their method is right or wrong) What is important is how they behave afterwards.

I agree with your first sentence.

However, I don't believe that "how they behave afterwards" is as important as to whether or not they are SENT by God to PREACH the gospel and WHAT they PREACH. You will note that God SENT Jesus (John 3:17) and what Jesus PREACHED were doctrines of God (John 7:16). Doctrines of God are found ONLY in the Bible.

If you can demonstrate that C.T. Russell did these things after he founded his organization (which was not called "Jehovah's Witnesses" until the 1930s after his death), and if retained as head after this time, then you can justifiably discredit the entire movement.

To evaluate objectively whether C T Rusell was truly chosen by God and the Jehovah's Witnesses which Russell founded is TRULY the "church of God" which Jesus PURCHASED with his own blood" (Acts 20:28), we must take into consideration what the Bible teaches, thus:

"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak NOT according to this word, it is because there is NO light in them" (Isaiah 8:20).

And: "And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spiit of prophecy" (REv. 19:10).

Does C T Russell have the "testimony of Jesus" which is the "spirit of prophecy?" Jesus testified of his having been SENT by God when he read Isaiah's prophecy about him in Luke 4:21, 17-20).

Did C T Russell PREACH doctrines of God that are found WRITTEN in the Bible? Jesus said, "My doctrine is not mine but His who SENT me" (John 7:16).

Perhaps some forget here that the entire Roman Catholic church in it's present incarnation was founded by Constantine, a Roman emperor who would probably be considered anything but righteous when he created the church. He didn't even consider himself to be upright enough to be officially converted until his deathbed, so that he could continue doing whatever he needed to maintain his empire without having to literally abide by church principles.

I'm glad you pointed this out because this proves beyond any reasonable doubt that the Roman Catholic Church is NOT the "Church of God that Christ PURCHASED with his own blood" (Acts 20:28). In fact, God said, and I belierve strongly that God was referring to the Roman Catholic Church: "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues" (Rev. 18:4).