I'm looking for an expert in Greek

[Christian2]

Hello everyone,

I have a comment and a question.

Comment: If Jesus was not claiming to be "I AM" or God, YHVH; He was at least claiming to be the Messiah. So essentially He was saying "If you do not believe that I am the Messiah (and all that means), you will die in your sins." This is still an astonishing thing for Jesus to say. In speaking to the the Jews He was saying that they have to believe that He is the Messiah or they will die in their sins; He was saying the same thing to the Gentiles for "salvation comes through the Jews." This is a remarkable claim for Jesus to make.

Question: This is on the grammar in John 8:24. Not understanding the Greek language, could someone who does explain how the grammar works in this passage:

John 8:24, Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

To a layman it looks like the verse should read, "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, I AM (or God), you will die in your sins."

I hope this question does not make the "one of the dumbest questions ever asked on the site." lol

Thank you.

[John Reece]

Question: This is on the grammar in John 8:24. Not understanding the Greek language, could someone who does explain how the grammar works in this passage:

John 8:24, Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

To a layman it looks like the verse should read, "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, I AM (or God), you will die in your sins."

A cross-reference in the margin of the Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament at John 8:24 is Isaiah 43:10. The reason for the cross-reference is identical wording of a phrase in the Greek texts in John 8:24 and Isaiah 43:10.

That phrase is [color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color]oti egw eimi[color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color] (hoti egō eimi) = ‘that I am’.

Here is the context of Isaiah 43:10 in the LXX:

Isaiah 43:1-13 (ESV) — color and brackets added

Israel's Only Savior

1 But now thus says the LORD [[hebrew]YHWH[/hebrew] (YHWH)],
he who created you, O Jacob,
he who formed you, O Israel:
"Fear not, for I have redeemed you;
I have called you by name, you are mine.
2 When you pass through the waters, I will be with you;
and through the rivers, they shall not overwhelm you;
when you walk through fire you shall not be burned,
and the flame shall not consume you.
3 For I am the LORD [Hebrew: [hebrew])nY YHWH[/hebrew] (’ ^ani YHWH)] your God,
the Holy One of Israel, your Savior.
I give Egypt as your ransom,
Cush and Seba in exchange for you.
4 Because you are precious in my eyes,
and honored, and I love you,
I give men in return for you,
peoples in exchange for your life.
5 Fear not, for I am with you;
I will bring your offspring from the east,
and from the west I will gather you.
6 I will say to the north, Give up,
and to the south, Do not withhold;
bring my sons from afar
and my daughters from the end of the earth,
7 everyone who is called by my name,
whom I created for my glory,
whom I formed and made."
8 Bring out the people who are blind, yet have eyes,
who are deaf, yet have ears!
9 All the nations gather together,
and the peoples assemble.
Who among them can declare this,
and show us the former things?
Let them bring their witnesses to prove them right,
and let them hear and say, It is true.
10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD [[hebrew]YHWH[/hebrew] (YHWH)],
"and my servant whom I have chosen,
that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he [LXX: [color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color]oti egw eimi[color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color] (hoti egō eimi)].
Before me no god was formed,
nor shall there be any after me.

Compare the wording of John 8:24 to the text above:

John 8:12-30 (ESV) — color and brackets added

I Am the Light of the World

12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." 13 So the Pharisees said to him, "You are bearing witness about yourself; your testimony is not true." 14 Jesus answered, "Even if I do bear witness about myself, my testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going, but you do not know where I come from or where I am going. 15 You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. 16 Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone who judge, but I and the Father who sent me. 17 In your Law it is written that the testimony of two men is true. 18 I am the one who bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me." 19 They said to him therefore, "Where is your Father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also." 20 These words he spoke in the treasury, as he taught in the temple; but no one arrested him, because his hour had not yet come.
21 So he said to them again, "I am going away, and you will seek me, and you will die in your sin. Where I am going, you cannot come." 22 So the Jews said, "Will he kill himself, since he says, 'Where I am going, you cannot come'?" 23 He said to them, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he [LXX: [color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color]oti egw eimi[color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color] (hoti egō eimi)]. you will die in your sins." 25 So they said to him, "Who are you?" Jesus said to them, "Just what I have been telling you from the beginning. 26 I have much to say about you and much to judge, but he who sent me is true, and I declare to the world what I have heard from him." 27 They did not understand that he had been speaking to them about the Father. 28 So Jesus said to them, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me. 29 And he who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to him." 30 As he was saying these things, many believed in him.

When one ponders the texts and contexts it’s apparent that in John 8 Jesus is alluding to Isaiah 43, identifying himself to be — in the words of the ESV caption — Israel’s Only Saviour.

[Christian2]

A cross-reference in the margin of the Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament at John 8:24 is Isaiah 43:10. The reason for the cross-reference is identical wording of a phrase in the Greek texts in John 8:24 and Isaiah 43:10.

That phrase is [color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color]oti egw eimi[color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color] (hoti egō eimi) = ‘that I am’.

Here is the context of Isaiah 43:10 in the LXX:

Isaiah 43:1-13 (ESV) — color and brackets added

Israel's Only Savior

1 But now thus says the LORD [[hebrew]YHWH[/hebrew] (YHWH)],
he who created you, O Jacob,
he who formed you, O Israel:
"Fear not, for I have redeemed you;
I have called you by name, you are mine.
2 When you pass through the waters, I will be with you;
and through the rivers, they shall not overwhelm you;
when you walk through fire you shall not be burned,
and the flame shall not consume you.
3 For I am the LORD [Hebrew: [hebrew])nY YHWH[/hebrew] (’ ^ani YHWH)] your God,
the Holy One of Israel, your Savior.
I give Egypt as your ransom,
Cush and Seba in exchange for you.
4 Because you are precious in my eyes,
and honored, and I love you,
I give men in return for you,
peoples in exchange for your life.
5 Fear not, for I am with you;
I will bring your offspring from the east,
and from the west I will gather you.
6 I will say to the north, Give up,
and to the south, Do not withhold;
bring my sons from afar
and my daughters from the end of the earth,
7 everyone who is called by my name,
whom I created for my glory,
whom I formed and made."
8 Bring out the people who are blind, yet have eyes,
who are deaf, yet have ears!
9 All the nations gather together,
and the peoples assemble.
Who among them can declare this,
and show us the former things?
Let them bring their witnesses to prove them right,
and let them hear and say, It is true.
10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD [[hebrew]YHWH[/hebrew] (YHWH)],
"and my servant whom I have chosen,
that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he [LXX: [color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color]oti egw eimi[color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color] (hoti egō eimi)].
Before me no god was formed,
nor shall there be any after me.

Compare the wording of John 8:24 to the text above:

John 8:12-30 (ESV) — color and brackets added

I Am the Light of the World

12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." 13 So the Pharisees said to him, "You are bearing witness about yourself; your testimony is not true." 14 Jesus answered, "Even if I do bear witness about myself, my testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going, but you do not know where I come from or where I am going. 15 You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. 16 Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone who judge, but I and the Father who sent me. 17 In your Law it is written that the testimony of two men is true. 18 I am the one who bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me." 19 They said to him therefore, "Where is your Father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also." 20 These words he spoke in the treasury, as he taught in the temple; but no one arrested him, because his hour had not yet come.
21 So he said to them again, "I am going away, and you will seek me, and you will die in your sin. Where I am going, you cannot come." 22 So the Jews said, "Will he kill himself, since he says, 'Where I am going, you cannot come'?" 23 He said to them, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he [LXX: [color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color]oti egw eimi[color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color] (hoti egō eimi)]. you will die in your sins." 25 So they said to him, "Who are you?" Jesus said to them, "Just what I have been telling you from the beginning. 26 I have much to say about you and much to judge, but he who sent me is true, and I declare to the world what I have heard from him." 27 They did not understand that he had been speaking to them about the Father. 28 So Jesus said to them, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me. 29 And he who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to him." 30 As he was saying these things, many believed in him.

When one ponders the texts and contexts it’s apparent that in John 8 Jesus is alluding to Isaiah 43, identifying himself to be — in the words of the ESV caption — Israel’s Only Saviour.

Thanks, John. :)

[Daco]

Thanks, John. :)

Quote: Originally posted by John Reece

John 8:12-30 (ESV) —

I Am the Light of the World

12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." 13 So the Pharisees said to him, "You are bearing witness about yourself; your testimony is not true." 14 Jesus answered, "Even if I do bear witness about myself, my testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going, but you do not know where I come from or where I am going. 15 You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. 16 Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone who judge, but I and the Father who sent me. 17 In your Law it is written that the testimony of two men is true. 18 I am the one who bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me." 19 They said to him therefore, "Where is your Father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also." 20 These words he spoke in the treasury, as he taught in the temple; but no one arrested him, because his hour had not yet come.
21 So he said to them again, "I am going away, and you will seek me, and you will die in your sin. Where I am going, you cannot come." 22 So the Jews said, "Will he kill himself, since he says, 'Where I am going, you cannot come'?" 23 He said to them, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he [LXX: οτι εγω ειμι (hoti egō eimi)]. you will die in your sins." 25 So they said to him, "Who are you?" Jesus said to them, "Just what I have been telling you from the beginning. 26 I have much to say about you and much to judge, but he who sent me is true, and I declare to the world what I have heard from him." 27 They did not understand that he had been speaking to them about the Father. 28 So Jesus said to them, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me. 29 And he who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to him." 30 As he was saying these things, many believed in him.

Christian2,

Again, look at verse 27 that simply says, They did not understand that he had been speaking to them about the Father. I AM he (JHVH).

By the time they got to verses 56-58 they understood clearly of whom He was speaking:

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

[MuggleOrSquib]

26 I have much to say about you and much to judge, but he who sent me is true, and I declare to the world what I have heard from him." 27 They did not understand that he had been speaking to them about the Father.

Seems clear to me that in verse 27 the referrence is to 'He who sent me'.

Be Well,
Bob Griffin

[John Reece]

Seems clear to me that in verse 27 the referrence is to 'He who sent me'.

Be Well,
Bob Griffin

Yep.

Christian2,

Again, look at verse 27 that simply says, They did not understand that he had been speaking to them about the Father. I AM he (JHVH).

By the time they got to verses 56-58 they understood clearly of whom He was speaking:

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

The statement in verse 27 (‘They did not understand that he had been speaking to them about the Father’) was NOT made in reference to the meaning of egō eimi (‘I am’) in verses 24, 28, and 58.

The statement in verse 27 (‘They did not understand that he had been speaking to them about the Father’) refers back to the immediately preceding verse (26): ‘. . . he who sent me is true, and I declare to the world what I have heard from him’.


That’s the way the best commentators take it:

It is strange that Jesus’ hearers did not recognize that, when he spoke of the one who had sent him, he was referring to the Father. It might have been thought that this was sufficiently clear from the words which he had spoken to them on his previous visit to the capital, when he said, for example, ‘The Father who sent me has borne witness concerning me’ (John 5:37). John may wish to emphasize a spiritual obtuseness which arose from their unwillingness to admit his claims as valid. The first hand Codex Sinaiticus and some western witnesses to the text have an addition to the wording which yields the sense: ‘They did not recognize that he was saying that God was his Father’. Such a claim from him had enraged them on the former occasion (John 5:18); perhaps because this time he used the periphrasis ‘he who sent me’, instead of saying ‘my Father’, the claim was not so explicit. But John’s readers have learned enough by this time to know very well what Jesus means.

— F. F. Bruce, The Gospel of John: Introduction, Exposition, and Notes, page 195 (Eerdmans, 1983).

27. By ‘he who sent me’ (verse 26), the Jews did not understand that he was telling them about the Father. One might have thought that the point had been pretty clear in 5:16-30. Certainly John does not report what the Jews thought Jesus actually meant. Possibly the fact that Jesus refers to God as the one who sent him instead of as his Father (cf. 5:18) confused a few of his hearers. In any case, the Evangelist leaves his readers in no doubt as to what Jesus meant, while casting doubt on the spiritual discernment of ‘the Jews’.

— D. A. Carson, The Gospel According to John (PNTC), pages 344-345 (Eerdmans, 1991).

27. [. . .] The Jews did not understand that Jesus had been sent from God.

— C. K. Barrett The Gospel According to St. John: An Introduction with Commentary and Notes on the Greek Text, Second Edition, page 342 (The Westminster Press, 1978).

[Cal_Minian]

Please see this Biblical verse:

John 8:24Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

"He" is italicized in some of my Bible versions. I understand that italicized words were not in the original text and were added for meaning or to make verses make sense.

According to a couple of my Study Bibles Jesus is really saying "unless you believe that I AM" as in Exodus when God told Moses that His name was I AM, you will die in your sins. In other words, Jesus is saying unless you believe that I am God, you will die in your sins.

I am looking for someone who can read the Bible in Greek and tell me if this is correct---that Jesus is calling Himself the great I AM in this verse.

Thank you.

I know this is an old thread but I have not been here in awhile.

You might be interested to know that Bauer-Danker-Arndt-Gingrich Greek Lexicon (BDAG) considers Jesus' claim to be the Messiah. It is in the entry [
[color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color] egw [color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color] (I)

[color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color] egw eimi [color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color] it is I (in contrast to others) Mt 14:27; Lk 24:39; J 6:20; I am the man 9:9; w. strong emphasis: I am the one (i.e. the Messiah) Mk 13:6; Lk 21:8; J 8:24, 28; cp. vs. 58.

Note that this includes all the [color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color] egw eimi [color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color] verses including John 8:58.

Cal_Minian

[Jaltus]

Just because BDAG says it does not make it so.

[Cal_Minian]

Quite true. However it is very interesting that the conservative LCMS (Lutheran Missouri Synod) financed this and is getting royalties from it.

Cal_Minian

[Christian2]

Texts:

Isaiah 41:1-4 (ESV) — color and brackets added

Fear Not, For I Am with You

1 Listen to me in silence,
O coastlands;
let the peoples renew their strength;
let them approach, then let them speak;
let us together draw near for judgment.
2 Who stirred up one from the east
whom victory meets at every step?
He gives up nations before him,
so that he tramples kings underfoot;
he makes them like dust with his sword,
like driven stubble with his bow.
3 He pursues them and passes on safely,
by paths his feet have not trod.
4 Who has performed and done this,
calling the generations from the beginning?
I, the LORD [Hebrew: [hebrew])nY YHWH[/hebrew] (’ ^ani YHWH) ], the first,
and with the last; I am he [LXX: [color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color]egw eimi[color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color] (egō eimi); Hebrew: [hebrew])nY HY)[/hebrew] (’ ^ani hu’)].

Isaiah 43:1-13 (ESV) — color and brackets added

Israel's Only Savior

1 But now thus says the LORD [[hebrew]YHWH[/hebrew] (YHWH)],
he who created you, O Jacob,
he who formed you, O Israel:
"Fear not, for I have redeemed you;
I have called you by name, you are mine.
2 When you pass through the waters, I will be with you;
and through the rivers, they shall not overwhelm you;
when you walk through fire you shall not be burned,
and the flame shall not consume you.
3 For I am the LORD [Hebrew: [hebrew])nY YHWH[/hebrew] (’ ^ani YHWH)] your God,
the Holy One of Israel, your Savior.
I give Egypt as your ransom,
Cush and Seba in exchange for you.
4 Because you are precious in my eyes,
and honored, and I love you,
I give men in return for you,
peoples in exchange for your life.
5 Fear not, for I am with you;
I will bring your offspring from the east,
and from the west I will gather you.
6 I will say to the north, Give up,
and to the south, Do not withhold;
bring my sons from afar
and my daughters from the end of the earth,
7 everyone who is called by my name,
whom I created for my glory,
whom I formed and made."
8 Bring out the people who are blind, yet have eyes,
who are deaf, yet have ears!
9 All the nations gather together,
and the peoples assemble.
Who among them can declare this,
and show us the former things?
Let them bring their witnesses to prove them right,
and let them hear and say, It is true.
10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD [[hebrew]YHWH[/hebrew] (YHWH)],
"and my servant whom I have chosen,
that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he [LXX: [color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color]egw eimi[color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color] (egō eimi); Hebrew: [hebrew])nY HY)[/hebrew] (’ ^ani hu’)].
Before me no god was formed,
nor shall there be any after me.
11 I, I am the LORD [Hebrew: [hebrew])nkY )nkY YHWH[/hebrew] (’anokhi ’anokhi YHWH) ],
and besides me there is no savior.
12 I declared and saved and proclaimed,
when there was no strange god among you;
and you are my witnesses," declares the LORD [[hebrew]YHWH[/hebrew] (YHWH)], "and I am God.
13 Also henceforth I am he [LXX: [color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color]egw eimi[color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color] (egō eimi); Hebrew: [hebrew])nY HY)[/hebrew] (’ ^ani hu’)];
there is none who can deliver from my hand;
I work, and who can turn it back?"

John 8:48-59 (ESV) — color and brackets added

Before Abraham Was, I Am

48 The Jews answered him, "Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?" 49 Jesus answered, "I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me. 50 Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death." 52 The Jews said to him, "Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, 'If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.' 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?" 54 Jesus answered, "If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, 'He is our God.' 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad." 57 So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am [[color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color]egw eimi[color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color] (egō eimi)]." 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

Comment by Carson (brackets and bold color added):

58. [. . .] Jesus [. . .]. If he had wanted to claim only that he existed before Abraham, it would have been simpler to say, ‘Before Abraham was, I was.’ Instead, bringing forward egō eimi found in verses 24, 28, Jesus says, ‘Before Abraham was born, I am.’ Whatever doubts may attach themselves to whether egō eimi should be taken absolutely in verses 24, 28, here there can be none. Moreover, the strong linguistic connections to Isaiah 40-55 are supported by obvious links: cf. ‘I, the Lord’ — with the first of them and the last — I am he’ (Isaiah 41:4); ‘Yes, and from ancient days I am he’ (Isaiah 43:13). Cf. Psalm 90:2. That the Jews take up stones to kill him presupposes they understand these words as some kind of blasphemous claim to deity. [. . .]

— D. A. Carson, The Gospel According to John (PNTC), page 358 (Eerdmans, 1991).

Comment by Bruce (brackets and bold color added):

8:57, 58 [. . .]

Jesus’ reply to their protest repeats the affirmation ‘I am He’ (egō eimi), used twice already in this chapter (verses 24, 28), and does so in a way which underlines the magnitude of the claim it expresses. He echoes the language of the God of Israel, who remains the same from everlasting to everlasting: ‘I, the Lord, the first and the last, I am He’ (Isaiah 41:4), How can a man who is ‘not yet fifty years old’ speak like that? Only if he speaks as the Word that had been with God from the beginning and was now incarnate on earth. Abraham looked forward to the time of his incarnation, but he himself existed before his incarnation, before Abraham was born (genesthai), before the worlds were made. The Word of the eternal God cannot be other than eternal. So much in this context is conveyed by egō eimi. And if we suppose that the conversation was carried on in Aramaic or even Hebrew, then Jesus could have uttered the very words ’ ^ani hu’ [[hebrew])nY HY)[/hebrew]], as though he were applying them to himself.

— F. F. Bruce, The Gospel of John: Introduction, Exposition, and Notes, pages 205-206 (Eerdmans, 1983).

Hello again, John.

I used the two quotes above in a discussion I'm having -- the one from Bruce and Carson.

This is my latest response:

Christian2 is really irritating me with the following, which he has repeated a few times now:
Quote:

Comment by Bruce (brackets and bold color added):8:57, 58 [. . .]Jesus’ reply to their protest repeats the affirmation ‘I am He’ (egō eimi), used twice already in this chapter (verses 24, 28), and does so in a way which underlines the magnitude of the claim it expresses. He echoes the language of the God of Israel, who remains the same from everlasting to everlasting: ‘I, the Lord, the first and the last, I am He’ (Isaiah 41:4), How can a man who is ‘not yet fifty years old’ speak like that? Only if he speaks as the Word that had been with God from the beginning and was now incarnate on earth. Abraham looked forward to the time of his incarnation, but he himself existed before his incarnation, before Abraham was born (genesthai), before the worlds were made. The Word of the eternal God cannot be other than eternal. So much in this context is conveyed by egō eimi. And if we suppose that the conversation was carried on in Aramaic or even Hebrew, then Jesus could have uttered the very words ’ ani hu’ [אני היא], as though he were applying them to himself.— F. F. Bruce, The Gospel of John: Introduction, Exposition, and Notes, pages 205-206 (Eerdmans, 1983).

Ani hu is not the the name of God , neither is ego eimi. These are common identifiers in both languages. F.F. Bruce is a real piece of work, really

.

I need some help in replying to my "piece of work."

Thanks.

[John Reece]

F.F. Bruce is a real piece of work, really

I need some help in replying to my "piece of work."

Christian2, your interlocutor was referring not to your work, but rather to a comment by F. F. Bruce.

I would not deign to respond to anyone who refers to F. F Bruce as "a real piece of work, really."

[Christian2]

Christian2, your interlocutor was referring not to your work, but rather to a comment by F. F. Bruce.

I would not deign to respond to anyone who refers to F. F Bruce as "a real piece of work, really."

Yes, that would be the easy way out, wouldn't it?

[John Reece]

Yes, that would be the easy way out, wouldn't it?

If you are referring to me, at my age, and in in my state of health, I do not have sufficient energy to engage in controversies in which I have no interest.

[Christian2]

If you are referring to me, at my age, and in in my state of health, I do not have sufficient energy to engage in controversies in which I have no interest.

I was referring to me, John. lol

I'm going to work something up for this guy but my heart isn't in it. Probably because I know it won't matter what I say or what evidence I present, this guy will believe what he wants to believe or has to believe.

But all is not lost because I will have gained knowledge for myself and it might come in handy in the future.

Best wishes. :)

[John Reece]

I was referring to me, John. lol

I'm going to work something up for this guy but my heart isn't in it. Probably because I know it won't matter what I say or what evidence I present, this guy will believe what he wants to believe or has to believe.

But all is not lost because I will have gained knowledge for myself and it might come in handy in the future.

Best wishes. :)