Will the suffering of the damned be one of the great "joys of heavenly bliss"?

[jimbo]

"St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274), one of the most influential Christian theologians in all of history, suggested that one of the 'joys of heavenly bliss' would be for believers to be able to look down at the torture going on in hell!"

http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/churchfathers.html

If Aguinas' claim-that the suffering of the damned is visible from heaven-is true, do any of the Christians on this board think they will ever tire of seeing and perhaps hearing the endless torture of people in Hell? If so, do you think it will be within 100,000 years of entering heaven, or do you think it will take longer, like say a trillion trillion trillion years?

Thanks.

Habib

[prgmrdave]

1. Wouldn't you have to ask Thomas (since it was his idea)?

2. Is this supported by Scripture (since we don't even need to ask "how long" if it's not)?

[Piebald]

Is it objectively wrong to allow someone to suffer for eternity?

If Aguinas' claim-that the suffering of the damned is visible from heaven-is true---

My beliefs about the nature of hell (or my speculations) are more in line with C.S. Lewis than Aquinas. It won't be one of the joys of heaven because we don't delight in seeing people get the consequences of what they deserve (we prefer to see them embrace grace). However we will delight in the justice and glory of God forever.

But at the end of the day I believe that people will only pay for what they have done, so I'm not worried.

(Allow me to dodge the assumption that the people in hell don't deserve the consequences they reep)

[The Laughing Man]

I will be eternally happy and praise God for his perfect holiness, righteousness, justness (justice, perhaps?), compassion, etc. It would not be just nor compassionate for the unsaved to be forced to be in the presence of the Most Holy God for eternity. Indeed, to be in the presence of God while still harboring unforgiven sin would be a far worse fate.

[jimbo]

Prgmrdave,

1. Wouldn't you have to ask Thomas (since it was his idea)?

I am asking Christians how they would react if they found themselves in this situation where they could see the suffering of the damned in Hell. It is not a question for Thomas Aquinas.

2. Is this supported by Scripture (since we don't even need to ask "how long" if it's not)?

The eternal torture of unbelievers is an idea that is clearly supported by the bible. Thomas Aquinas, heralded as one the great minds of the Holy Catholic Church, believed that the eternal torture of unbelievers was visible from Heaven. Presumably he had rock solid support underlying this claim of his. Anyway, my question is in regard to how Christians on this board would react to seeing people being tortured mercilessly day after day. Would they ever tire of it?

Thanks

Mustapha

[Nowhere357]

Hamster:
(Allow me to dodge the assumption that the people in hell don't deserve the consequences they reep)

Deserved punishment is one thing, yes, not a big deal. But what can mortal finite man do to deserve an ETERNITY of punishment? Because the punishment never ends, there can be no good at the end - there is no end. What deserves that?

[Piebald]

But what can mortal finite man do to deserve an ETERNITY of punishment?

He can work to transform himself into something ungodly and rebellious. That has eternal consequences and the population of hell must live with the consequences of their actions.

[Nowhere357]

Hamster:
He can work to transform himself into something ungodly and rebellious.

How does he do that, exactly?

That has eternal consequences

Why is that? You realize that NO POSSIBLE GOOD can come from this?

and the population of hell must live with the consequences of their actions.

What actions, exactly? What is it that earns ETERNAL punishment?

[Piebald]

How does he do that, exactly?

By remaining unregenerate and denying God's grace through Christ man gets his final wish and enters the realm of Hell. Man's choices have consequences, and every sinful action he makes are an affront to an infinitely Holy God. The "transformation" I talk about is something that both C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien have spoken of in their works. Every choice a man makes "transforms" him into something more and more ungodly/sinful. The only way to escape this process is by accepting Christ as Lord and Redeemer. Not accepting redemption will have consequences similar to that of "Gollum" in Lord of the Rings. A Lifetime of expressing allegiance to the ring (sinfulness, evil) twists Gollum until the thing that falls to it's destruction is not so much a man but the remains of a man. A Creature that's allowed it's wickedness to twist it so much that it will be alienated from God forever.

You realize that NO POSSIBLE GOOD can come from this?

What do you mean? Why isn't quaranteening evil so that it can no longer interefere with those who choose goodness a good thing?

What actions, exactly?

You mean specifically? Any action that flies in the face of God's will alienates the person from God. Redemption restores that relationship. If the relationship is not restored, the relationship will be severed forever.

[seer]

...I am asking Christians how they would react if they found themselves in this situation where they could see the suffering of the damned in Hell. It is not a question for Thomas Aquinas.


Many of us do not believe in eternal hell. But I would direct you to my post on "Hell and Gollum"

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/sho...&threadid=6532

Could we love or have genuine compassion for any creature that has lost all it's humanness?

[trueseeker]

jimbo,

I am a Christian, and I will answer your question directly.

Will the suffering of the damned be one of the great joys of heavenly bliss? No

I believe everyone who accepts Jesus' sacrifice for their evil deeds, and is willing to die to their old nature and let God rebuild them into His image. Reshaping our hearts to love the things that He loves, and have the same goals and desires as He has, will be allowed to enter into His kingdom.

Those who want to hold on to their old nature and are not willing to die to themselves and trust God to rebuild their hearts and desires will not be allowed in. Nor would they be happy in His eternal kingdom.

Since their is a price to pay for evil deeds, and most people will not accept Jesus' sacrifice for their sins, they will have to pay for them. This is what the judgement is about, each person will be judged according to their deeds. Those who committed a multitude of evil deeds like Hitler and Stalin will suffer the consequences of their actions. 'Justice is Mine I will repay, says the Lord.' Their suffering may go on for quite some time. On the other hand people who did little wrong, their suffering will be short. The scriptures also state that, 'judgement will be merciless to those who show no mercy.' A persons charitable and merciful acts will also be calculated in to determine how much or how little punishment they shall receive.

In the end their will not be a place for the people who were not willing to let God make them into His image. Because Hell itself will be thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed. So too will the people who did not accept Jesus so as to receive eternal life. They will be thrown into the lake of fire, to be unmade, to no longer exist.

Thus those who entered into God's heavenly kingdom will be satisfied with God's judgements and mercy. Our loved ones will only have to suffer to the extent that they caused suffering, and then mercifully their suffering will stop and they will be put to rest. And the terrible beasts of our world will get what is coming to them, but even they don't deserve to be tormented for ever, eventually--mercifully they will be put to rest as well.

But no, joy at watching others in torment is not one of the attributes that God is building into our hearts.

[seer]

True words of wisdom trueseeker, thanks....

[Undomiel]

Since none of us will really DESERVE to be in Heaven, it only stands to reason that the only way we will be there is because of Jesus. If that's the only true difference between those damned and those saved from damnation, and it is, I believe those who are without Jesus will be judged according to their knowledge, their life experiences, how their life experiences manifested in their behavior, and the desire of their hearts. If it is the desire of your heart to be evil deliberately and with full knowledge of the salvation message and a concentrated effort to ignore it, you've become a deliberate vessel for the perpetuation of evil, oft times unbeknownst to yourself. You'll be judged based on that desire and the degree of severity you were used by evil to destroy the works of God. If Jesus is not your Defense Attorney, trouble is ahead. I can't say I believe in purgatory, per sey, but it seems there's some room for error based on the fact some of us never have a chance to believe in Jesus due to life experiences, the place we were born, etc.

Therefore, to take delight in seeing the suffering of others would be counterproductive to the teaching and spirit of love in Jesus' message, and hypocritical due to our own inate, inborn shortcomings. Our righteousness is like filthy rags, our works are of no report, and try as we might, we aren't the least bit holy. Only Jesus is holy. Our attempts to reveal the fruits of the spirit by works, is only an exercise in willingness to be a vessel for the greater glory of Jesus - who does the REAL work, lays the true foundation, performs the true acts of righteousness we have no say in or ability to achieve ourselves. In fact, in many cases, we are completely unaware when we've performed the righteous work of Jesus. Considering human pride that is probably a good thing because no doubt, we'd try to take credit for it all as if our willingness to be a vessel had somehow magically transformed us into Christ, Himself. He most assuredly is God and we are not. Our lesson is to remember that when Lucifer decided he was equal to God, He was shown the door in a hurry.

So, if our own righteousness is no better than those who suffer damnation, be cautious, be thankful there's a resolution for our shared humanity, and walk meekly in the spirit towards others who inquire of the mercy of God, because we deserve no better treatment than the damned, only Jesus' bridges that gap for us.

Err, this is what I learned from the New Testament of the bible and from my life experiences.

[spl_cadet]

Aquinas never spoke that. Check out my post on CARM (from a couple months back) in the Catholic board about it. tinythinker posted the original question.

[Piebald]

Well, I was actually looking for that quote in Summa Theologica last night, but the work is pretty big so I couldn't find it. Jimbo, can you give us a more direct citation of where it is?