The Tree In The Center of The Garden

[Sparko]

Some disobedience is evil, other disobedience is just disobedience.

If you tell me to jump off a bridge, and I disobey you, is that evil.

If you disobey a perfect and good God, that would always be evil.

[dacristoy]

Once again i must ask; what is evil. What does it consist of?

[dacristoy]

I was referring to disobedience to God. Disobeying God is evil in my eyes.

So do we perpetrate the evil on God, or does he perpetrate said evil on us?

[Sparko]

So do we perpetrate the evil on God, or does he perpetrate said evil on us?

The evil is the disobedience of God. At it's basic level, evil disobeying God. Of course today, many think of evil as being malevolence. Wanting to destroy people and property for example. But that is just a more extreme level of evil.

God is good and wants the best for us. So his commands to us are good. If we disobey Him, that is not good. It is evil.

[Jedidiah]

It needs a whole thread to explain!

Well do start a thread. I am interested in this.

[footwasher]

The evil is the disobedience of God. At it's basic level, evil disobeying God. Of course today, many think of evil as being malevolence. Wanting to destroy people and property for example. But that is just a more extreme level of evil.

God is good and wants the best for us. So his commands to us are good. If we disobey Him, that is not good. It is evil.

Genesis 22:2He said, “Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you.”

[Sparko]

Genesis 22:2He said, “Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you.”

And Abe was going to do it till God stopped hm so he didn't disobey God. Besides I never said people, even God's people didn't sin. We are all sinners.

[footwasher]

Well do start a thread. I am interested in this.

Classical Theists are wonderful people, seeking to glorify God, attributing omniscience and other great powers to Him, and they aren't wrong. However God changes Himself, He appears to man in a form that does not kill, is not lethal, so when a classical theist speaks about God, he must specify which form he is observing.

Open theism adherents are wonderful people too, they glorify God by attributing to Him merciful and loving traits, but they must also realise that God assumes different forms for different roles.

The problem is that open theists employ absolute descriptions of God which I believe are uncalled for, and on researching the topic, I found out that serious scholars have reached views that are similar to those I have reached, a form of process theology, but more advanced. They include perichoresis in the mix, something that has not occurred to me yet:

http://christpantokrator.blogspot.in...chive.html?m=1

http://christpantokrator.blogspot.in...ogy-6.html?m=1

http://exiledpreacher.blogspot.in/20...-j_14.html?m=1

Lots of technical terms to be found there, and I always found it easier to think of kenosis as the absolute solution to the desired result God seeks when He begins a project. A seed cannot grow until it dies. No human transaction can begin until there is a show of good faith. Two strangers meet and the ice can be broken if one pours out a drink of water and offers it to the other, making sure to drink from the same container first. This act is an act of stooping down to conquer, humbling oneself in order to foster trust.

We know that Christ adopted this method throughout His ministry, in fact, in joining the human race, His first act was to empty Himself of His Godhood! What we sometimes miss is that He claimed to do only what He saw the Father do, going so far as to say that whoever saw Him had seen the Father. It follows that God also empties Himself and it would not be difficult to deduce that to achieve the results He desired, to nurture unforced relationships: granting freewill, limiting of His omniscience, etc. would definitely be part of His plan.

I would describe perichoresis as a manifestation of kenosis. Perichoresis is the self sacrificial relationship between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Some see it as the giving up of momentum that occurs when a locomotive takes on a coach, but I see it as a chain that is wound around sprockets, like a bicycle transmission. One link pulls the next, but is in turn pulled ahead by the link in front: a type of a perpetual motion system!

Anyway, do read through those links for a feel of what the researchers are figuring out, a useful exercise, not just for intellectual enjoyment, but for fruitful living, because the disciples wanted to see the Father so that they could follow in His footsteps!

[37818]

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; . . ." -- Romans 2:12.

if you are not a sinner without the law, how can you have sinned? Please read the verses you post before posting them. It is saying that you can be a sinner and break God's commandments even if you are a gentile. Reading in context usually helps.

Romans 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

I merely cited that reference. Yes, a context needs to be taken into account.

[dacristoy]

(SNIP)
We know that Christ adopted this method throughout His ministry, in fact, in joining the human race, His first act was to empty Himself of His Godhood! What we sometimes miss is that He claimed to do only what He saw the Father do, going so far as to say that whoever saw Him had seen the Father. It follows that God also empties Himself and it would not be difficult to deduce that to achieve the results He desired, to nurture unforced relationships: granting freewill, limiting of His omniscience, etc. would definitely be part of His plan.

(SNIP)!

From this comment could we conclude that Christ was not fully god and fully human in his incarnation. Would it be more accurate to say that he was POSITIONALLY GOD, YET FULLY HUMAN...

[footwasher]

From this comment could we conclude that Christ was not fully god and fully human in his incarnation. Would it be more accurate to say that he was POSITIONALLY GOD, YET FULLY HUMAN...

Genesis 18:1Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth, 3and said, “My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by.


We know that angels refuse to be worshipped, yet these men accepted Abraham's worship. Yet, again, men cannot see God and live.

We have to accept that God communicates with men in a form that is comprehensible, non lethal and near human (expressing surprise, reacting spontaneously to acts of loyalty and love) but for all practical purposes, especially for the purpose of defining their position in relationship with men, are still fully God!

Rather like the POTUS joining you in your family barbecue, but he is still POTUS!

[dacristoy]

Genesis 18:1Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth, 3and said, “My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by.


We know that angels refuse to be worshipped, yet these men accepted Abraham's worship. Yet, again, men cannot see God and live.

We have to accept that God communicates with men in a form that is comprehensible, non lethal and near human (expressing surprise, reacting spontaneously to acts of loyalty and love) but for all practical purposes, especially for the purpose of defining their position in relationship with men, are still fully God!

Rather like the POTUS joining you in your family barbecue, but he is still POTUS!

FULLY POSITIONALLY GOD. Functionally FULLY HUMAN FOR THE WORK OF THE CROSS...

But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?

7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

[37818]

Genesis 18:1Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth, 3and said, “My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by.


We know that angels refuse to be worshipped, yet these men accepted Abraham's worship. Yet, again, men cannot see God and live.

<snip>

From the context (V.4) Abraham was not yet aware that the LORD[God] was there with two angels. And if Abraham was so aware and had worshiped as you suppose, by him bowing to the ground in respect, it would have only been because of the LORD which he singularly addressed "My Lord." As for the LORD[God] appearing it was none other than the only-begotten of God the Father (John 1:18, KJV, ASV, NKJV).

[footwasher]

From the context (V.4) Abraham was not yet aware that the LORD[God] was there with two angels. And if Abraham was so aware and had worshiped as you suppose, by him bowing to the ground in respect, it would have only been because of the LORD which he singularly addressed "My Lord." As for the LORD[God] appearing it was none other than the only-begotten of God the Father (John 1:18, KJV, ASV, NKJV).

http://www.tektonics.org/jesusclaims/trinitydefense.php

Quote
Dunn puts it succinctly: "What pre-Christian Judaism said of Wisdom and Philo also of the Logos, Paul and the others say of Jesus. The role that Proverbs, ben Sira, etc. ascribe to Wisdom, these earliest Christians ascribe to Jesus." [James D. G. Dunn, Christology in the Making, 167] This conception of Wisdom parallels a less significant, general Jewish explanation of how a transcendent God could participate in a temporal creation. The Aramaic Targums resolved this problem by equating God with His Word; thus, in the Targums, Exodus 19:17, rather than saying the people went out to meet God, it says that the people went out to meet the word of God, or Memra.

This term became a periphrasis for God; whether it could have been reckoned as a separate person, as in Christian Trinitarianism, is a matter of debate. The risk involved with making Wisdom/Word an independent deity was too great for the rabbis to speculate further, but Christians found in the Wisdom tradition an ideal categorical conception within which to place the person of Jesus.

[Bill the Cat]

Classical Theists are wonderful people, seeking to glorify God, attributing omniscience and other great powers to Him, and they aren't wrong. However God changes Himself, He appears to man in a form that does not kill, is not lethal, so when a classical theist speaks about God, he must specify which form he is observing.

Open theism adherents are wonderful people too, they glorify God by attributing to Him merciful and loving traits, but they must also realise that God assumes different forms for different roles.

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