The Tree In The Center of The Garden

[dacristoy]

I think that it might be helpful to call sin by its maiden name, "Disobedience".

[footwasher]

<snip>God commanded Adam not to eat from the tree. That was an ORDER, not a suggestion.

Actually, it was neither. It was a warning.

Adam was capable of obeying it without having experienced good and evil.

No one claimed otherwise. Any fool can understand warnings and obey them. On the other hand, observing Laws requires the ability to differentiate right from wrong.

He knew that disobeying God was wrong.

Not really. He didn't have the ability to differentiate right from wrong. That is in the text. You should believe the text.

He even taught that to Eve.

Actually he didn't teach Eve that it was wrong to disobey God, but told her that God warned him that he would die if he ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

God has never done anything evil, so are you saying he doesn't know the difference between right and wrong? Good and evil? Neither have the angels that did not rebel with Satan. They have not sinned and they know good from evil.

No one claimed that. Where are you getting all this from? Point out where I made those claims.

If there can be no sin without a law, then how can Adam be a sinner?

Eggzactly. So Adam did not break a law, a commandment. He ignored a warning, making him a damaged person, not a law breaker, sinner.

The bible says he is a sinner.

The letter to Romans was written to those under the law.

Romans 3:19Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;

To them, Adam's act was a sin.

How could Satan be a sinner and evil? If he was an angel who did not know good from evil, how could God blame him for doing evil?

Who said Satan did not know good from evil? Where are you getting all these faulty views that you assign to me from? Point out where I made these claims.

Hmmm?

That's right. Hmmm?

[Sparko]

Actually, it was neither. It was a warning.

It was a command. A command is an order. That is simple english.

Not really. He didn't have the ability to differentiate right from wrong. That is in the text. You should believe the text.

OK Remember you just said that for later...

No one claimed that. Where are you getting all this from? Point out where I made those claims.

It is logic based on your claims. See above. How would God or Satan or the Angels differentiate right from wrong before actually doing something wrong?

Eggzactly. So Adam did not break a law, a commandment. He ignored a warning, making him a damaged person, not a law breaker, sinner.

Rom 5:12 (AGAIN!!) Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

Who said Satan did not know good from evil? Where are you getting all these faulty views that you assign to me from? Point out where I made these claims.

Again, see above. Satan was a perfect being. He was good and an angel. He had done no wrong and did not know "good and evil" - so when he rebelled against God, why did God cast him out? How is Satan evil if he didn't know any better? Your logic regarding Adam is the same. And your logic stinks.

[footwasher]

It was a command. A command is an order. That is simple english.

It's not a law. A law has a right and wrong component. Prohibition from Knowing good and evil has no right or wrong observation about it , just as a prohibition from touching a live wire is not a disruption of a system that affects society. It is not right or wrong, moral or immoral, it's just harmful to the person who ignores the warning.

OK Remember you just said that for later...

?

It is logic based on your claims. See above. How would God or Satan or the Angels differentiate right from wrong before actually doing something wrong?

Don't bring in other topics and confuse yourself. Sort this issue out first.

Rom 5:12 (AGAIN!!) Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

If an insane person finds a gun in the trash, points it at another man and pulls the trigger, the judge cannot say he has broken a law, because the law does not apply to that mad man. However, to those under the law, his act is a transgression, a breaking of their law, a crime, a sin. That's how it would be reported in a news paper:

" Madman Commits Heinous Crime".

However, in reality, he would not have committed a crime, murder. Gedit?

Again, see above. Satan was a perfect being. He was good and an angel. He had done no wrong and did not know "good and evil" - so when he rebelled against God, why did God cast him out? How is Satan evil if he didn't know any better? Your logic regarding Adam is the same. And your logic stinks.

And you are getting more confused by introducing the situations of God and angels. Stick to the topic. Or start a fresh thread about Satan.

[Sparko]

Satan and God is the same situation as Adam and God. Both were good and innocent and both rebelled against God without "knowing" good or evil.

And Adam was not a madman. He was a perfect man, entirely sane and he did know good. He was good, and he knew that God was good. Therefore he knew that disobeying God was evil. He chose to do so. And when he did, he experienced what evil was. That is how he knew (experienced) good and evil.

[dacristoy]

Satan and God is the same situation as Adam and God. Both were good and innocent and both rebelled against God without "knowing" good or evil.

And Adam was not a madman. He was a perfect man, entirely sane and he did know good. He was good, and he knew that God was good. Therefore he knew that disobeying God was evil. He chose to do so. And when he did, he experienced what evil was. That is how he knew (experienced) good and evil.

Adam's transgression in the garden was not a transgression of good and/or evil: That transgression came only after the fall. {For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.}

The original transgression was one of obedience/disobedience. At the time of Adam's transgression he was not aware of either good or evil, but he did know that he was to obey God.

The original transgression was one of disobedence, later known as sin...

Genesis 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.

9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?...

[Jedidiah]

Adam's transgression in the garden was not a transgression of good and/or evil: That transgression came only after the fall. {For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.}

The original transgression was one of obedience/disobedience. At the time of Adam's transgression he was not aware of either good or evil, but he did know that he was to obey God.

The original transgression was one of disobedence, later known as sin...

. . . snip . . .

So are you suggesting that disobedience is not evil?

[footwasher]

Satan and God is the same situation as Adam and God. Both were good and innocent and both rebelled against God without "knowing" good or evil.

And Adam was not a madman. He was a perfect man, entirely sane and he did know good. He was good, and he knew that God was good. Therefore he knew that disobeying God was evil. He chose to do so. And when he did, he experienced what evil was. That is how he knew (experienced) good and evil.

The text states Adam knew right from wrong only after eating the fruit.

The physiology of the brain of teen agers lack the part that helps judgment. This part is fully developed only after attaining majority. Similarly, the brains of insane people have inadequate function in the same area. Adam was about to get full function of this part, but only after his body was empowered to do what he wanted it to do, which God was partnering with Him to do, just as He was partnering with Adam to complete Creation. Creation is the task in which the beauty of the unity of God and Man was to be revealed

The situation in the Garden was transitional.

Stage 1
Adam knows not the difference between right and wrong.
His body is driven by natural impulses and acts against God's eternal laws.
The law states what is right and wrong.
No transgression takes place because man cannot differentiate between right and wrong.
Adam is not a sinner, is in unity with God.

God's Plan
Stage 2
Adam is in unity with God.
Adam subdues the earth, even the wind and the waves are in submission to him.
Adam subdues his body.
God permits Adam to eat of the tree of knowledge of right and wrong.
Adam chooses right action and what he wants to do his body does.
Creation is perfected.

The fallout of Adam's disobedience

Adam becomes aware of difference between right and wrong.
He chooses right actions.
What he wants to do he cannot do
He is a sinner.
He loses unity with God

Who will save him from this body of death?
Thanks be to Christ!

The blessings resulting from the atonement

Expiation> the mess from Adam to John cleaned up.
Propitiation> jail time served.
Old Covenant completed.
New Covenant commissioned.
Reunited with God (we are in Christ, our spirits are seated with Him in high places) through the sending of the Spirit.
Empowered by the Spirit to put to death the desires of the flesh.
My body is able to do what it was designed to do.
I can do what I desire.
Christ has saved me from this body of death.
Creation completed.

Everything after the Atonement is the same as God's plan, except the mess that Adam and his descendants created has been cleaned up.

The candy store owner has been robbed of candy. Expiation is paying him for his loss, making it as if the theft never happened. The thief goes to jail (in this case, God, His Father, goes to jail) satisfying the candy shop owner that punishment has been meted out, a deterrent to others from copying the crime, ensuring confidence that the institutions of society are stable. The trauma to the mind of the candy store owner has been cured.

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...omplish/page14

Quote
What held the world from being friends with God? Sins enacted. Sinfulness. Jesus was the expiation for sins enacted by a symmetrical obedience, all the sins of the world being reversed by His stupendous act of obedience (Christ pays the candy store a divine life, an adequate payment). Jesus was the propitiation for the world's sinfulness (God goes to jail to satisfy the vengeance required by the candy store, an adequate punishment).

[Jedidiah]

The text states Adam knew right from wrong only after eating the fruit.

footwasher, do you believe that God's plan for creation was messed up by Adams failure?

[dacristoy]

So are you suggesting that disobedience is not evil?

Some disobedience is evil, other disobedience is just disobedience.

If you tell me to jump off a bridge, and I disobey you, is that evil.

Can you give me a blanket definition of evil that is present in 99% of its application. God said that he creates evil: What did he create. What is a synonym for evil or a definition of evil that is present whenever you use the word?

The evil that overcame Adam after his disobedience, where did it come from...

[dacristoy]

God's plan for creation cannot be altered by man, but the path to accomplishing it can.

[footwasher]

footwasher, do you believe that God's plan for creation was messed up by Adams failure?

Anything involving freewill always includes the possibility of non cooperation. God is not creating robots, so yes, it's possible for men to slow down God's plans. The Bible suggests that even plants can be recalcitrant:

Luke 13:And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. 7“And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ 8“And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; 9and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’”

God is fair, even merciful and we know, in Christ, more than loving. However, men can refuse to receive gifts. We shed tears over the stubbornness of Jerusalem, maybe as she herself wept:

Matthew 23:29“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30and say, ‘If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31“So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32“Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. 33“You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

However, our laziness is not less than that of the slothful servant, who took the revelation that God gave him and did nothing with it.

Do not be surprised if this happens:

Luke 18:8However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?"

[Jedidiah]

Some disobedience is evil, other disobedience is just disobedience.

If you tell me to jump off a bridge, and I disobey you, is that evil.

I was referring to disobedience to God. Disobeying God is evil in my eyes.

[Jedidiah]

Anything involving freewill always includes the possibility of non cooperation. God is not creating robots, so yes, it's possible for men to slow down God's plans. The Bible suggests that even plants can be recalcitrant:

Luke 13:And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. 7“And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ 8“And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; 9and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’”

God is fair, even merciful and we know, in Christ, more than loving. However, men can refuse to receive gifts. We shed tears over the stubbornness of Jerusalem, maybe as she herself wept:

Matthew 23:29“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30and say, ‘If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31“So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32“Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. 33“You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

However, our laziness is not less than that of the slothful servant, who took the revelation that God gave him and did nothing with it.

Do not be surprised if this happens:

Luke 18:8However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?"

The real question is did God in His Omniscience know and account for what He knew was coming? If God is Omniscient nothing can go any way He does not already know.

[footwasher]

The real question is did God in His Omniscience know and account for what He knew was coming? If God is Omniscient nothing can go any way He does not already know.

The different views are:

God is omniscient (Classical Theism)

God is omniscient, but He cannot know something that is not in existence (Open Theism)


However, I have a third theory, which I call Kenotic Theism ( ;) ) !

It needs a whole thread to explain!