Genesis 3:15 and Jews

[Krusader]

Genesis 3:15 has been viewed by Christians as God's earliest promise regarding the Messiah and the final vanquishing of Satan. Jews, on the other hand, sometimes say this is simply a verse dealing with women and their relationship with snakes. However, the rabbis of old seemed to see Genesis 3:15 in a different light:

"And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel. Genesis 3:15 JPS*

What did the Jewish Rabbis say about this verse? - Targum Pseudo-Jonathan:

And it shall be that when the sons of the woman study the Torah diligently and obey its injunctions, they will direct themselves to smite you on the head and slay you; but when the sons of the woman forsake the commandments of the Torah and do not obey its injunctions, you will direct yourself to bite them on the heel and afflict them. However, there will be a remedy for the sons of the woman, but for you, sepent, there will be no remedy. They shall make peace with one another in the end, in the very end of days, in the days of the King Messiah.


Would any care to comment on their take of Genesis 3:15? Who has crushed the head of Satan? Israel? Judaism? Or, could it be Jesus Christ, whose resurrection from the dead defeated Satan?

[Menachem]

Genesis 3:15 has been viewed by Christians as God's earliest promise regarding the Messiah and the final vanquishing of Satan. Jews, on the other hand, sometimes say this is simply a verse dealing with women and their relationship with snakes. However, the rabbis of old seemed to see Genesis 3:15 in a different light:

"And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel. Genesis 3:15 JPS*

What did the Jewish Rabbis say about this verse? - Targum Pseudo-Jonathan:

And it shall be that when the sons of the woman study the Torah diligently and obey its injunctions, they will direct themselves to smite you on the head and slay you; but when the sons of the woman forsake the commandments of the Torah and do not obey its injunctions, you will direct yourself to bite them on the heel and afflict them. However, there will be a remedy for the sons of the woman, but for you, sepent, there will be no remedy. They shall make peace with one another in the end, in the very end of days, in the days of the King Messiah.


Would any care to comment on their take of Genesis 3:15? Who has crushed the head of Satan? Israel? Judaism? Or, could it be Jesus Christ, whose resurrection from the dead defeated Satan?

What I see is a failure to grasp the simple differences between the terms Midrash(homiletical or moral meaning) versus Peshat(Plain and simple meaning). This is a concept lost with you in this regard.

The Targum Yonatan, while a beautiful work, is very midrashic in nature. what I find funny is your usage of Targum Yonatan/Yerushalami. Let's see what Targum Onkelos reads and see what we can determine this to be about.

Targum Onkelos:

"And I will put enmity between you and between the woman, and between your sons and her sons. They will remember you, what you have done to them at the beginning, and you shall be observant of them until the very end."

Targum Onkelos presents a less midrashic translation of the hebrew text and paraphrases the hebrew slightly in its translation. The basic idea is the same between the two.

I will work from the translation you provided to save time but I want you to notice a few things in this translation of the Aramaic Targum Yonatan/Yerushalami that work against the christian notion.

"And it shall be that when the sons of the woman study the Torah diligently and obey its injunctions, they will direct themselves to smite you on the head and slay you; but when the sons of the woman forsake the commandments of the Torah and do not obey its injunctions, you will direct yourself to bite them on the heel and afflict them. However, there will be a remedy for the sons of the woman, but for you, sepent, there will be no remedy. They shall make peace with one another in the end, in the very end of days, in the days of the King Messiah"

I want you to notice the plurality the Targum is using. "sons of the woman" or "they shall..." The Targum defeats the notion that the original Hebrew refers to a single person. It in fact points to the Human race. Yet the Targum goes much further as to indicate the Torah observant descendants. What this means is that it encompasses the Jews and those Gentiles who wish to observe the Noachide laws as well. thus "Observe Torah.."

Another thing i would like to note is how the Targum indicates that the serpents children will make peace with Humanity in the days of the King Moshiach. My question is "Where in the GNT did this take place?" It didnt.

The Targum itself defeats the christain claim by:

A) denoting a plurality of people thus it is not referencing a single person to whom christians claim it to be jesus.

B) When did this peace take place in the GNT? As I indicated there is no record of this ever taking place in the GNT nor in actuality.

C) the word "Satan" does not appear in either the text of the Targums so we can safely put this one to rest.


As for the idea that the "serpent" is a representation of "satan" in christian tradition is totally unfounded and without support. It is a later insertion by christian exegetes.

In Jewish tradition the serpent is said to metaphorically represent the "yetzer har'a" or "evil Inclination." This is based on a Midrash. if you have not grasped the concept of "Midrash" then you will not understand what I mean when I say it. Do I deny that Targum Yonatan/Yerushalami mentions the King Moshiach? No! I do hoever say that it does nto work for the christian position but against it by the examples I cited above.

Shalom,

[Tladatsi]

In the OT, satan is not a name, it is a title. It means opponent but mankind's opponent, not God's opponent. Satan is God's "special prosecutor" , his job is to measure mankind by providing tests, tests like that experienced by Job and provoke people to commit sins (ala David in 1 Chr 21:1). As the Book of Job shows, satan and God sit down in heaven and have two pleasent conversations in heaven, clearly not enemies. Satan is not a fallen angel but an angel who can walk around heaven and speak with God.

In Luke 22:31 "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to have all of you, to sift you like wheat. 32 But I have pleaded in prayer for you, Simon, that your faith should not fail. So when you have repented and turned to me again, strengthen and build up your brothers."

From whom was satan asking permission to "sift" Simon? To whom did Jesus pray that Simon would have the strength to withstand satan's tests? The answer to both questions is God.

Consider Paul in 2 Cor 12: 7-9. Paul says "But to keep me from getting puffed up, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger from Satan to torment me and keep me from getting proud. Three different times I begged the Lord to take it away. Each time he said, 'My gracious favor is all you need. My power works best in your weakness.' So now I am glad to boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may work through me."

Paul is tormented by satan's messenger. Paul asks God to end the torment. God could only end the torment if satan's messenger answers to God. God says you Paul work best when you are made to suffer from satan's torments.

The serpent in Gen 3:15 is just a talking snake, not satan, or even a devil. What is the snake's punishment in Genesis? Is he cast into hell? No. He is made to crawl about on his stomach. Hardly the punishment for a fallen angel.

The whole insurgent / fallen angel story occurs nowhere in the Bible. It is actually from the Book of Enoch.

[Straylight]

the Book of Enoch.

Which predates the NT, of course. The concept of Satan in Christianity has it's roots in Judaism. It wasn't invented out of some vacuum.

Anyways...At the very least, the serpent is "a" satan.

[edit] It should also be noted that at least at one time, the "evil inclination" is equated with the Angel of Death and Satan in the Babylonian Talmud.

Baba Batra 16a:

R. Simeon ben Lakish said: Satan, impulse to evil, and angel of death - all three are the same thing.

[Goose]

Would any care to comment on their take of Genesis 3:15? Who has crushed the head of Satan? Israel? Judaism? Or, could it be Jesus Christ, whose resurrection from the dead defeated Satan?

Well, it obviously wasn't the Christian Christ, because Satan is still among us.

[sylvius]

Genesis 3:15 has been viewed by Christians as God's earliest promise regarding the Messiah and the final vanquishing of Satan. Jews, on the other hand, sometimes say this is simply a verse dealing with women and their relationship with snakes. However, the rabbis of old seemed to see Genesis 3:15 in a different light:

"And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel. Genesis 3:15 JPS*

What did the Jewish Rabbis say about this verse? - Targum Pseudo-Jonathan:

And it shall be that when the sons of the woman study the Torah diligently and obey its injunctions, they will direct themselves to smite you on the head and slay you; but when the sons of the woman forsake the commandments of the Torah and do not obey its injunctions, you will direct yourself to bite them on the heel and afflict them. However, there will be a remedy for the sons of the woman, but for you, sepent, there will be no remedy. They shall make peace with one another in the end, in the very end of days, in the days of the King Messiah.


Would any care to comment on their take of Genesis 3:15? Who has crushed the head of Satan? Israel? Judaism? Or, could it be Jesus Christ, whose resurrection from the dead defeated Satan?

keyword seems to be 'akev', heel, gematria of which is 172, like the 172 words with which the ten commandements Exodus 20 are written

'akev' is root of the name Ya'akov, Jacob, Genesis 25:26, "his hand was seizing Esaus's heel"

and you'll find it in Genesis 22:18,
"And in your seed all the peoples of the earth will be blessed because of ( 'ekev asher') you hearkened to my voice".

[Straylight]

Well, it obviously wasn't the Christian Christ, because Satan is still among us.

Jesus talks about being "born from above". That those reborn are bestowed a new inclination written on their hearts. This is part one of the nature of Satan's defeat: Weakening of the yetzer har'a by baptism (which Paul calls "the sinful nature" in Greek). It is the Torah put inside of human beings.

The second aspect is of death's sting.

The third....Well....I won't get into that for now.

[John from Ebla]

Well, it obviously wasn't the Christian Christ, because Satan is still among us.

Not realy because Christians overcame him through Christ when Judaism was sent to ashes in 70 Ad- the history from 60AD to 1948 tells how Judaism is yet to crush satan. The state of Israel is under threat and terror (still to crush Satan)

From a Hebrew that has been freed from the Power of satan.

Shalom

[John from Ebla]

keyword seems to be 'akev', heel, gematria of which is 172, like the 172 words with which the ten commandements Exodus 20 are written

'akev' is root of the name Ya'akov, Jacob, Genesis 25:26, "his hand was seizing Esaus's heel"

and you'll find it in Genesis 22:18,
"And in your seed all the peoples of the earth will be blessed because of ( 'ekev asher') you hearkened to my voice".

So how come the Jewish nation is not blessed with peace- but terror and for 2000 years the Jews were not very blessed through out the earth and with out a home. In fact according to Amos, the sword was over them. Amos 7:10

So what is the seed that all the people are blessed in? Obviously not Jewish. Why do you think so many Hebrews gave Rabbinic Judaism the flicks?

Shalom

[sylvius]

So how come the Jewish nation is not blessed with peace- but terror and for 2000 years the Jews were not very blessed through out the earth and with out a home. In fact according to Amos, the sword was over them. Amos 7:10

how come Jesus crucified?

So what is the seed that all the people are blessed in? Obviously not Jewish.

German?

Why do you think so many Hebrews gave Rabbinic Judaism the flicks?

you're a Hebrew, aren't you?

Shalom[/QUOTE]

[John from Ebla]

how come Jesus crucified?

Why under the Old covenant was the blood of Lamb on the alter for attonement of sin.

German?

l am asking you what is the seed that we are blessed in.

you're a Hebrew, aren't you?

Yes, but bleesed because l gave Rabbinic Judaism the flicks- like many other. So what is the seed?

Shalom

[sylvius]

Why under the Old covenant was the blood of Lamb on the alter for attonement of sin.



l am asking you what is the seed that we are blessed in.





Yes, but bleesed because l gave Rabbinic Judaism the flicks- like many other. So what is the seed?

Shalom

Seed of Abraham, Genesis 22:18,
"And in your seed all the peoples of the earth will be blessed because of ( 'ekev asher') you hearkened to my voice".

[John from Ebla]

Seed of Abraham, Genesis 22:18,
"And in your seed all the peoples of the earth will be blessed because of ( 'ekev asher') you hearkened to my voice".

Back to square one.

How come the Jewish nation is not blessed with peace- but terror and for 2000 years the Jews were not very blessed through out the earth and with out a home. In fact according to Amos, the sword was over them. Amos 7:10 Are they not Abrahams seed?

Shalom

[sylvius]

Back to square one.

How come the Jewish nation is not blessed with peace- but terror and for 2000 years the Jews were not very blessed through out the earth and with out a home. In fact according to Amos, the sword was over them. Amos 7:10 Are they not Abrahams seed?

Shalom

Because of goons like you.

I realize that this is not nice.
so I apologize.

The world is full of goons.

That's why the gospel is also called 'the gospel of enemy-love'.

[John from Ebla]

Because of goons like you.

I realize that this is not nice.
so I apologize.

The world is full of goons.

That's why the gospel is also called 'the gospel of enemy-love'.

Why do you read the gospels if you don't believe Jesus is the seed through which people are blessed? Are just trying to provoke and confuse?

My Jewish work mate that has been with me for 17 years has never said l was a goon or crazy- he goes to the synagogue every week because of his mother in-law, he sits just out side the entry door and first to go when it over. He observes the feasts because it’s Jewish tradition- circumcised and has parents who escaped to Austria during world two and migrated to Australia, as many of them did. But he is an atheist and does not believe in God. A picture say’s a thousand words that is why my friend is an atheist Jew- because the history of the Jews is no blessing. It all started out of the ashes of 70AD when a few rabbis made their famous statement, “Oh Torah what will become of you” they still haven’t worked it out. Do you know they even believe the halakhah went back to Moses.

Will the real goon stand up.

Shalom