Hell - as revealed in scripture

[apostoli]

This thread continues the discussion (reply to post #351) at
Ecclesiology 201 - Does Roman Catholicism Have Another Jesus????
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...82#post1327982


Hi Jude3b,

Apostoli, I challenge you to provide even ONE VERSE of scripture that would indicate that the state of men after the judgment and that Christ rejecting wicked men will come to an end and be no more (your theory of Annihilation).

Matthew 10:28 & Rev 20:14-15; 21:8 come immediately to mind. Though I'm sure you'll rush to Rev 20:10 to contra. However, consider, if the devil, beastie and false prophet are not annihilated then neither is "death and hades/hell". If the latter are not annihilated then that raises some interesting questions regarding eternal life!

Rev 20:14-15; 21:8 says the wicked will also be annihilated in the same way as "death and hades/hell" are annihilated!

Matthew 10:28 says both the body+soul can be destroyed (from the context the implication is the unrighteous will be destroyed body+soul = annihilated)..

I have to disagree with your thesis or conclusion, especially when you make a blanket statement such as: "NO SCRIPTURE BASED THEOLOGIAN SEES HELL AS ANYTHING OTHER THAN ANNILATION FOR THE WICKED."

And yet there is not a single scripture that talks of sinners physically suffering in a fiery hell for all eternity. Scripturally, the unrighteous will receive a punishment that lasts for eternity. I have yet to find a scripture that says the unrighteous will be continually punished for all eternity. That might be why many modern philosophic theologians have changed the idea of hell as being merely the eternal seperation of the wicked from God. But even that idea has no scriptural support.

Undoubtedly, you will refer me to the story of Lazarus and the rich man. But it is obvious from the context of this tale (Luke 16:14-31-17:1) that Jesus is using the Pharisees synthesis of Greek philosophy (cp: Acts 23:8) and their ideas of a multi layered hell/sheol to criticise them. Note Jesus' conclusion to the story at Luke 17:1 "temptations to [false doctrine] are sure to come; but woe to [the teacher] by whom they come! (RSV)

First, you do not know every Bible based theologian in the whole world that has ever lived, so it is impossible for your statement to be correct; or at the very least it is a very weak accusation of the theological position of others that you disagree with.

Firstly, not all theologians are bible based. The entire man conceived understanding of the oncology of God is displaced from scripture (cp: 1 Cor 2:11) and totally based on speculative metaphysics (the Trinity however can be found in scripture). As for the doctrine of an eternal, conscious suffering in a fiery hell, the ancient Greeks thought this, as do the Hindus. But I cannot find the teaching in scripture (see below).

I don't need to know all theologians, it is easy to identify those that are bible based: they base there views on the bible without interpolating their opinion with pagan philosophy or speculative reasoning. Scripturally the penalty for sin is death (Rom 5:12; Heb 9:27). There is no scriptural teaching of a conscious eternal punishment that I can find (see below).

Secondly, why don't you share Scripture instead of your opinions about what theologians teach or don't teach?

I would. But the scriptures are silent in regards to the doctrine of eternal suffering in hell. In contrast, the scriptures are resounding in the doctrine of resurrection and eternal life for the righteous. The scriptures do declare eternal annihilation for the wicked (see below).

I'll give you my opinion here, and I do believe it to be Bible based and yes I have my Theology degrees...

In which case I'm sure you take to heart the interpretation of Jesus' advice at Luke 17:1 "temptations to [false doctrine] are sure to come; but woe to [the teacher] by whom they come!" and James 3:1 "we who teach will be judged with greater strictness."

The scriptures you quoted only show that the wicked will be punished once and for all time. As you well know the OT scriptures refer to sheol/hell as the abode of all the dead. In the NT, we have hades/hell which is used in the same sense. In the NT we also have Gehenna (which in its 12 occurances is translated in the KJV as hell), as you well know Gehenna was a rubbish tip outside Jerusalem's walls. James 3:6-7 uses the term interestingly.

Gehenna is important to your doctrine as, where it occurs, it is the only time in the KJV where "hell" and "fire" occur in the same breath. However, the term used by Jesus 11 times, 11 times fits into three categories - the first shows that Gehenna does not refer to a place of eternal suffering.

Mt 10:28 (cp: Lk 12:5) - body+soul are destroyed in Gehenna
Mt 23:15,33 - false teachers lead their pupils to Gehenna's destruction
Mt 5:22,29,30; 18:9; Mk 9:43,45,47 - in danger of Gehenna's fire

It is likely Jesus uses the term in reflection of Jeremiah's prophecy - Jer 7:30-34; 19:1-15; or in the least from the Jewish practice of denying some burial and instead throwing the bodies on the burning fires of the rubbish tip, in the valley of Hinnom (Gehenna).

There is one other place that the KJV causes misunderstanding when translating a word as "hell" - 2 Peter 2:4 - the word here is Tartarus, where the fallen angels are bound in darkness, until the end times. It is possible that A.Peter is using Greek ideas differentiating the abode of the human dead (hades), with the abode of the fallen angels. In Homer's Illiad, Tartarus is depicted 'as far below hades as earth in below heaven' and where Cronus and the Titans were imprisoned. However, thinking on A.Paul's words at Ephesians 6:12, it might be suggested that "those that are not flesh and blood", "the rulers of darkness" who we wrestle with, are the fallen angels. So A.Peter may have used Tartarus to describe a condition rather a place. In any case, Tartarus is a seperate place/condition to that place where all humans go = hades.

Apparently Paul was not a Bible based theologian, was he?

He was a Pharisee, so I presume he was an OT theologian and scholar; with a Jewish understanding of sheol/hades/gehenna (the dead are conscious of nothing Eccl 9:1-10). Which he would have understood as an unconscious sleeping, a waiting place of the dead (Job 14:10-13) or in the case of gehenna a place of annihilation (Isa. 30:33) . He also would have been aware of the prophets testimony that God would destroy the wicked for all eternity. But no where does A.Paul say that the wicked will eternally suffer consciously in a fiery hell.

As a minister of God with theology degrees, it is my belief, based on Scripture that the love of God demands eternal separation of the wicked from the righteous. God has promised to "...punish you for all your iniquities" (Amos 3:2). He also said: "I will punish the world for their evil, and the WICKED FOR THEIR INIQUITY" (Isa. 13:11)

I agree. Is not annihilation an absolute punishment and an absolute separation of the wicked from the righteous. God did not say to Adam if you eat from the fruit of the tree I will make you suffer consciously for all eternity! Did he?

In the days of Noah, God did not say he would punish the people eternally. Did he? Same wise in the days of Lot.

Also note, your cite of Amos 3:2 wasn't a great choice - it only applies to the twelve tribes of Israel. "You only...I will punish". Your other cite, Isaiah 13:11 was a better choice, though from verse 17, it refers to a specific punishment on a specific people. Isaiah 26:21 would have been a better choice. In any case none of these texts have God saying or implying that he would punish the wicked by making them suffer consciously for all eternity.

The LORD has "reserved the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished" (2 Peter 2:9).

Note verse 12. The wicked are destroyed/perished - annihilated.

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy who hath trodden under foot the Son of God" (Heb. 10:29)

According to A.Paul, there are those that know not God but live righteous lives, these too will be found righteous before God. However, we who have found Christ have a special burden, to live not just good lives but in the image of Christ. As those who live by the law, will be judged by the law. We who have found Christ will be judged by his standard. (I'm sure as a minister of God, you know the scriptures I refer to thoroughly and I don't need to quote the many verses). If you believe God is righteous, then he punishes all equally (Rev 20:15; 21:8). However, as a righteous God (Rom 3:5-6) he judges us by our ability to meet (knowledge of) his standard. (Rom 2:12; James 2:12 etc)

"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction" (2 Thess. 1:9).

Destroy anything and it ceases to exist (modern physics demonstrates this admirably, anything destroyed changes substance eg: burn bread you get carbon - the constituency of bread is annihilated).

"And these shall go away into EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT" (Matt. 25:46).

", but the righteous into eternal life." Read the verse in context of verses 31-46. Those who reject the spirit of Christ will be punished but it does not say in a "fiery hell". Annihilation is permanent, everlasting punishment.

I believe that God is a God of love and therefore I can understand why some would wish that HELL does not exist. But I also remind you that God is also a God of Justice. Since God is a perfect being we must expect to find in Him the perfect and harmonious expression of all of his attributes.

Exactly! God is not a torturer! He judges and punishes mercifully.

Apostoli, I challenge you to provide even ONE VERSE of scripture that would indicate that the state of men after the judgment and that Christ rejecting wicked men will come to an end and be no more (your theory of Annihilation).

Rather apostoli, please remember to: "Fear Him which after He hath killed, hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear Him" (Luke 12:5).

Note verses Luke 12:1-5 are about false doctrine that leads to annihilation. Remember in Greek/Jewish philosophy there were several layers to shoel/hades. As Jesus ridiculed elsewhere in his parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Particularly note that the word translated "hell" in the KJV is actually Gehenna (see above); the garbage tip where utter destruction of debris occurs = annihilation. Also note Luke 12:4 has a parallel in Matthew 10:28 where Jesus says both body+soul are destroyed in Gehenna (I call that annihilation).

because, "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God" (Psalm 9:17).

The Hebrew word here is sheol - the abode of the dead. The context of Ps9 as you well know: all men die and turn to dust, so fear God above man.

how? "The angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth" (Matt. 13:49,50).

From the context of Matt 13:47-50, the "wailing and gnashing of teeth" occurs before/as they are cast into the furnace. The fuller story is in Matt 13:37-43, where the wicked are compared to tares of wheat which are burnt. Compare Rev 18:15-17, and you'll soon get the sence.

The phrase "wailing and gnashing of teeth" occurs 6 times in Matthew and once in Luke here are the contexts...

Matthew 13:42,50 - those wailing are those judged to be tares
Matthew 24:51 - those wailing are those left behind (see verses 24:36-51)
Matthew 8:12; 22:13; 25:30; Luke 13:28 - those wailing are those cast out into utter darkness

"Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41).

See Rev 20:10 & Rev 20:14 Satan and his followers are cast into the lake of fire, the same place that death and the abode of the dead (sheol/hades/gehenna/hell) is also annihilated; as are those not written in the book of life. The fire is described as everlasting regarding its results not its perpetuality. For instance Jesus' kingdom rule is said to be everlasting, but it is plain from 1 Cor 15:22-28 that its affects are perpetual but not the rule itself.

Never forget the Word of God: "And these shall go away into EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT" (Matt. 25:46). Last question, how long will "everlasting punishment" last?

Annihilation is eternal! Never reversible. Removed from the book of life!

Well I hope I have answered you adequately. In anycase 4 questions, arise in my mind regarding the doctrine of eternal torture in Hell...

Biblically, what is the punishment for sin? Is it not defined as death?

If the soul exists beyond death, then we do not die just as Satan told Eve. True or False? If false why?

If the soul exists beyond death, then we do not die and we in fact live! Therefore, there is no need for a resurrection - except to take back a physical body? Earthly bodies cannot exist in heaven (Jesus was transformed on his asscention), so what use is a body?

God kills body+soul in Gehenna, which seems to be equivalent to the lake of fire in Revelation. If both body+soul are made dead (the second death); then what is suffering in the eternal fires?

[Dee Dee Warren]

there is no fire in hell

[apostoli]

Hi Dee Dee,

there is no fire in hell

That was a super quick response.

In regards to Sheol/Hades & Tartarus I have to agree, but Gehenna & the lake of fire there definitely must be a fire of some form.

[~Natsumi Lam~]

nice research!!

~NL~

[Bernie]

Actually, in the OT God identifies Himself as flame and fire. I think He is the lake of fire.

Also, if eternality is applied not to the suffering of individuals but to the components of evil in the every human spirit, then annihilationism is perfectly logical...the property of falsity or evil (represented by tares, goats, etc. in NT) is what is 'burned off' or annihilated, while individuality is presvered. Similar to how the physical being retains its individuality whilst shedding dead cells, with new being born ('offspring') to replace them. This view is quite consistent with both Testaments

[~Natsumi Lam~]

no need to worry ..

they'll find out if it is hot or not one day

~NL~

[apostoli]

Hi Bernie,

Actually, in the OT God identifies Himself as flame and fire. I think He is the lake of fire.

Also, if eternality is applied not to the suffering of individuals but to the components of evil in the every human spirit, then annihilationism is perfectly logical...the property of falsity or evil (represented by tares, goats, etc. in NT) is what is 'burned off' or annihilated, while individuality is presvered. Similar to how the physical being retains its individuality whilst shedding dead cells, with new being born ('offspring') to replace them. This view is quite consistent with both Testaments

Philosophically what you say is absolutely valid. Given God is not evil, nor creates evil but purifies. However, the OT witness is one of Justice, the wicked are destroyed (eg: time of Noah, Lot) and seperated for all time from mankind. In the NT tares, goats etc are destroyed entirely (no individuality remains just a new substance - presumably carbon). Then again Jesus says "he who has not sinned cast the first stone", so we could assume that the OT punishment scenario has been made redundant. However, Jesus took on all mankinds sin, suffered and died (was punished, once and for all time, by taking on sin). The orthodox churches and Luther teach that Jesus died body+soul+spirit, so logically all that die in sin are annihilated. And the righteous (those written in the book of life) are resurrected to eternal life.

The alternative (belief in an immortal soul or spirit) proves the serpent (satan/devil) told eve the truth and God is the lier! I believe God does not lie!

[apostoli]

no need to worry .. they'll find out if it is hot or not one day

Ever heard of "cold heat", it is a form of radiation and equally destructive!

[Bernie]

Hello apostoli,

"Philosophically what you say is absolutely valid. Given God is not evil, nor creates evil but purifies. However, the OT witness is one of Justice, the wicked are destroyed (eg: time of Noah, Lot) and seperated for all time from mankind. In the NT tares, goats etc are destroyed entirely (no individuality remains just a new substance"

I'm not understanding where you disagree...don't see any difference in your NT or OT definitions. They both apply equally to what I contend for. I think Jesus died to save the indiviudal by deflecting the wages of sin [death] from particular to universal, or from individual to the property of falsity (evil) in human spirit. Evil as a property--not as a person--is annihilated or destroyed, eventually. The perfection of God's justice can never be served by destroying a whole in which some good yet exists (see Isa 42:3). God Himself brings this fact to our attention in His conversation with Abram on the way to Sodom, per Gen 18:17-32. Notice in this story He separates the righteous (Lot & family) from the wicked...serving perfectly Jesus' message that 'many are called but few are chosen'. This same "spiritual surgery" is testified to esoterically throughout the Bible, from Ezekiel (Ezek 21:2-5) to Matthew (Mat 5:29-30).

We're being annhilated spiritually--all of us--even as we speak...God is merciful indeed.

[apostoli]

Hi Bernie,

I'm not understanding where you disagree...

I'm perceiving that you believe that some part of us survives the "burning off". That is: the wicked are cleansed and eventually made righteous, and get to enter paradise/heaven.

In my view the wicked are annihilated in every sense of the term, every part of them (conceivable and inconceivable) ceases to exist.

don't see any difference in your NT or OT definitions.

Nor do I, both teach that the punishment of the unrighteous occurs once and is everlasting.

They both apply equally to what I contend for. I think Jesus died to save the indiviudal by deflecting the wages of sin [death] from particular to universal, or from individual to the property of falsity (evil) in human spirit. Evil as a property--not as a person--is annihilated or destroyed, eventually. The perfection of God's justice can never be served by destroying a whole in which some good yet exists (see Isa 42:3). God Himself brings this fact to our attention in His conversation with Abram on the way to Sodom, per Gen 18:17-32.

Notice in Gen 19, God seperates Lot and his Family from Sodom, then annihilates Sodom and Gormorrah. Lot's wife looks back and is turned to a pillar of salt. No one survived in those unrighteous cities. Same applies in Noah's time. The righteous were seperated and the unrighteous annihilated.

Notice in this story He separates the righteous (Lot & family) from the wicked...serving perfectly Jesus' message that 'many are called but few are chosen'. This same "spiritual surgery" is testified to esoterically throughout the Bible, from Ezekiel (Ezek 21:2-5) to Matthew (Mat 5:29-30).

And Jesus said those unchosen would weep and gnash their teeth, for they would knew there destruction was at hand.

We're being annhilated spiritually--all of us--even as we speak...God is merciful indeed.

Annihilated means destroyed, and in a lot of ways modern life corodes our spiritual life but God has given us the Spirit to help us...God indeed is merciful.

All the best!

[Xmansmommy]

Great thread!

[Bernie]

Hello apostoli,

We appear to be speaking past one another, it seems.

"Notice in Gen 19, God seperates Lot and his Family from Sodom, then annihilates Sodom and Gormorrah. Lot's wife looks back and is turned to a pillar of salt. No one survived in those unrighteous cities. Same applies in Noah's time. The righteous were seperated and the unrighteous annihilated."

Agreed. But you are looking at this as though its primary meaning is in the literal application of judgment to individuals or particulars.

I see in all Scripture a broader esoteric sense, based on good old orthodox dualism, in which the literal is a type of the universal. This is not a new idea. Aquinas said in Q1, a9 of the Summa, [i]"...it is natural to man to attain to intellectual truths trhough sensible things, because all our knowledge originates from sense. Hence in Holy Scripture spiritual truths are fittingly taught under the likeness of material things."[i/]
The angelic doctor goes on in article 10 to state, "The author of Holy Scripture is God, in Whose power it is to signify His meaning, not by words only (as man also can do) but also by things themselves. So, whereas in every other science things are signified by words, this science has the propety that the things signified by the words have themselves also a signification. Therefore that first signification whereby words signify things belongs to the first sense, the historical sense or literal. That signification whereby things signified by words have themselves also a signification is called the spiritual sense, which is based on the literal and presupposes it."

"I'm perceiving that you believe that some part of us survives the "burning off". That is: the wicked are cleansed and eventually made righteous, and get to enter paradise/heaven."

yes, only it's much broader than that. Not only does every individual survive, but the miracle of new birth takes place within the destruction--offspring are brought forth, rising from our death (Jn 12:24). Isa 43:5,44:3 & 48:9 are examples of God's Spirit bringing forth fruit thirty, sixty and a hundredfold (Mat 13:8) from the "field" of the human spirit, where the opposite elements, tares and wheat, coexist. This is perfectly consistent with Paul's teaching in Rom 8:13: "for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live." Spirit and flesh in this context represent not merely the theological spirit/body dualism, but true/false or good/evil components within the spirit of every human. If we live after the flesh (our inner evil essence), we're going to die...actually, the essence or property of evil will die, and this results in tribulation for the individual whose soul is being seared by the regenerative fire. We have a choice in time and space to use our will, but only in deference to God's decree that our "covenant with death" and "pact with Sheol" will be annuled (Isa 28:18)

If you choose not to believe Paul, how about Ezekiel, who under the guidance of the Spirit, prophecied, "...I will enter into judgment with you," declares the Lord GOD. And I shall make you pass under the rod, and I shall bring you into the bond of the covenant; and I shall purge from you the rebels and those who transgress against Me; I shall bring them out of the land where they sojourn, but they will not enter the land of Israel. Thus you will know that I am the LORD." (Ezek 20:36-38) The prophet goes on to state a few verses later, "As a soothing aroma I shall accept you, when I bring you out from the peoples and gather you from the lands where you are scattered; and I shall prove Myself holy among you in the sight of the nations.
And you will know that I am the LORD, when I bring you into the land of Israel, into the land which I swore to give to your forefathers. And there you will remember your ways and all your deeds, with which you have defiled yourselves; and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for all the evil things that you have done." (vv. 41-43) THis is perfectly consistent with Isaiah's assesment: "Therefore through this Jacob's iniquity will be forgiven; And this will be the full price of the pardoning of his sin: When he makes all the altar stones like pulverized chalk stones; When Asherim and incense altars will not stand." (Isa 27:9) Something internal is being annihilated, destroyed, regenerated. Evil as a property of spirit is being put to death.

Something is destroyed from within Jacob [God's chosen]. Mal 3:2-4 tells us this purfying fire will result in the change to a state in which righteousness comes forth. It's absurd to suppose that Jesus was actually suggesting that we cut off body parts to keep from sinning in Mat 18; in fact, He was referring us to a process He performs in the spirit of every human, spiritual surgery. There is a completely consistent, congruous path to these principles in both Testaments. Look past the literal thing to what God's saying in universal essence. Everyone's going to (is in the process of being in) hell, with more to go in the afterlife for those who have not Christ's righteousness for their shield from the face to face encounter with the fiery furnace of God's pure, True information (the lake of fire everyone must face, Heb 9:27).

So it's not merely surviving the burning, it's actually being made perfect in it. Fire is regeneration, and it's not wholly performed in an instantaenous event, as the popular view holds, but progressive and fragmented. We're being born as we're being killed, those who believe more so (to their benefit in the afterlife, see 1Cor 3:11-15) than the unbeliver (1Tim 4:10).

"In my view the wicked are annihilated in every sense of the term, every part of them (conceivable and inconceivable) ceases to exist."

I agree; our difference lies in the fact that you are applying this annihilation to INDIVIDUALS and I'm applying it to ESSENCE or spirit. As stated earlier, my view is the only one I know of that does restores perfection to the administration of God's attributes; love, mercy, justice, forgiveness. To destroy an individual completely is more merciful than eternal torment, but it still makes God violate His perfection...the individual in whom exists both good and evil essence fails the overriding perfection of God's attributes.

"both teach that the punishment of the unrighteous occurs once and is everlasting."

Agreed. The "unrighteous" is a spiritual component which manifests itself in time and space in human thought, speech and behavior. Evil is a mutable property: why would God destroy the individual if He can change him/her?

"And Jesus said those unchosen would weep and gnash their teeth, for they would knew there destruction was at hand."

This is consistent with my view, too, you know. The Catholics, from whom I've been gone for more than 30 years now, have the notion of purgatory right after all, as I see it. But hell is still hell, even if it ain't forever, and the church today needs evangelization from within more than they need to perform it without, as soberly attested to by the Lord in Mat 7.

God bless you in your walk, apostoli.

[apostoli]

Hi Bernie,

I need to think on your post before I reply. In a few places I had an instinct to make a knee jerk response but that is not my way. And besides, in other places you raise points worth pondering. I'll try to make a considered reply in a day or two.

All the best!

[Bernie]

Hello apostoli,

"I need to think on your post before I reply. In a few places I had an instinct to make a knee jerk response..."

Understood. My personal theology seems particularly suited to inciting this reaction. Look forward to future dialog.

[apostoli]

Hi Bernie,

I had a long think on your post #12. Before I reply to your points, I thought it might be helpful if I summarised the basis of my reasoning...

Way down your post, you cite 1Cor 3:11-15 and this gives me a better understanding of how you correlate "hell" and the cleansing fire/s. However, as I noted in post #1, Hell is a translation of three different Greek words hades, gehenna and tartarus. Gehenna is the only "hell" term where fire is said to exist. Particularly, it was a rubbish tip outside of Jerusalem, where brimstone and sulphur were used to destroy the refuse - not cleanse it. That said: I do agree that 1 Cor speaks of a cleansing but I'll reserve comment to my reply below.

The way I understand things: 1 Thess 5:23 implies that man exists wholly as body+spirit+soul. Jesus at Matthew 10:28 says both the body+soul can be destroyed in gehenna. Heb 4:12 implies that the soul and spirit are interlinked but can be seperated - though in this verse it seems heart=soul and spirit=thoughts=mind. In any case, linking these scriptures we could conceive that our Spirit is immune from destruction. Well it would, if it wasn't for the book of life. Those not written in it are cast into the lake of fire - the same place that death and hell are cast (does death cease to exist from this event?). In an OT sense death applies to the body+emotion+mind (Eccl 9:5-6) and death is a consequence of God taking away mans breathe (Ps 104:29). Now Isa 42:5 distinguishes breathe and spirit, though it should be noted that both are given to us by God. From Isa 42:6 (cp. James 2:26) I get the impression that spirit in vs Isa 42:5, refers to the spiritual life force of man. So it seems to me that for someone to be excluded from the book of life, his spirit must be already dead. Therefore, those thrown into the lake of fire are annihilated entirely, body+soul+spirit. Even that they had existed is forgotten.

Way below, you raise an objection to this idea, and I hope I have answered it (see below)

Notice in Gen 19, God seperates Lot and his Family from Sodom, then annihilates Sodom and Gormorrah. Lot's wife looks back and is turned to a pillar of salt. No one survived in those unrighteous cities. Same applies in Noah's time. The righteous were seperated and the unrighteous annihilated.

Agreed. But you are looking at this as though its primary meaning is in the literal application of judgment to individuals or particulars.

I see in all Scripture a broader esoteric sense, based on good old orthodox dualism, in which the literal is a type of the universal. This is not a new idea. Aquinas said in Q1, a9 of the Summa, "...it is natural to man to attain to intellectual truths trhough sensible things, because all our knowledge originates from sense. Hence in Holy Scripture spiritual truths are fittingly taught under the likeness of material things."[i/] The angelic doctor goes on in article 10 to state, [i]"The author of Holy Scripture is God, in Whose power it is to signify His meaning, not by words only (as man also can do) but also by things themselves. So, whereas in every other science things are signified by words, this science has the propety that the things signified by the words have themselves also a signification. Therefore that first signification whereby words signify things belongs to the first sense, the historical sense or literal. That signification whereby things signified by words have themselves also a signification is called the spiritual sense, which is based on the literal and presupposes it."

Agreed. Though you might notice my reference to the people in the times of Noah and Lot refer to a "collective" not an "individual" punishment. Lot's family and the destruction of Sodom and Gormorrah are a good example. Was Lot and his family any better than anyone in those towns. Lot offered his daughters for a gang rape. Lot's daughters get him drunk and rape him! The offspring became the tribes Moab & Ammon that had emnity towards Israel (eg: Judges 11:17). These are the particulars. Now let's look back and see what these stories teach us. Lot and his daughters had two points up on the people of Sodom and Gormorrah : 1. they feared and obeyed God 2. their motivation was honest (ie: Lot's daughter's raped him not for sexual pleasure).

So, applying Aquinas' method: the particular is that God will destroy the wicked but the significance is that God will also judge those who reside with them according to their heart condition (motivation). In the case of Lot's wife, the particular is, she looked back and was turned to a pillar of salt. However, the ancillary is that she displayed her true heart condition. As for Sodom and Gormorrah, the particular is that the wicked were destroyed, the significance is that a single punishment is used collectively (not individually) of the wicked.

I'm perceiving that you believe that some part of us survives the "burning off". That is: the wicked are cleansed and eventually made righteous, and get to enter paradise/heaven

yes, only it's much broader than that. Not only does every individual survive, but the miracle of new birth takes place within the destruction--offspring are brought forth, rising from our death (Jn 12:24). Isa 43:5,44:3 & 48:9 are examples of God's Spirit bringing forth fruit thirty, sixty and a hundredfold (Mat 13:8) from the "field" of the human spirit, where the opposite elements, tares and wheat, coexist.

Referring back to Sodom and Gormorrah, note that only individuals seperated to God are saved; the wicked are collectively punished - destroyed. In the texts you cite, it is the righteous of God, that make God's abundance manifest.

John 12:24 made me pause. The words of Jesus at first seem strange: given that through a simple experiment, putting a seed on a bit of moist cloth, it can be observed that if the seed dies, nothing grows from it, but if it is alive the seed, to us appears to be transformed into a plant. (Mat 13:7 makes it clear that a seed that dies produces nothing). Now, when we put John 12:24 in the context of verses 23 to 25, it is apparent that Jesus when referring to the seed is speaking of himself, and the seed is the "life source". Much seems to be lost in the translation of Jewish thought (idiom) to English, but I think the sense is clear - nothing grows until the seed is planted (vs 24), and when planted it will grow to a new life. Verse 26 is most noteworthy "let any man who serves me, let him follow me". That is each of Christ's followers should be willing to die in his name - to be as seeds from which new life will grow.

Matthew 13:8The context of our conversation has been that I believe "the tares" will be burnt off, leaving no source nor trace of their individual existence. Whereas, you are saying that "the tares" burning is a cleansing - eg: some individuality of each continues to exist after the burning. However. Matt 13:7 clearly shows that the seeds that fall on bad ground, "take no root and wither away" aka they cease to exist, decaying into dust - with nothing of their individuality remaining.

Isa 43:5, 44:3 & 48:9It should be noticed that these prophesies of Isaiah apply only to those whom God has seperated as a people of his own (eg: Isa 48:12-22). God tells the Israelites to flee from the tares (Isa 48:20). "There is no peace, saith the Lord unto the wicked."

This is perfectly consistent with Paul's teaching in Rom 8:13: "for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live." Spirit and flesh in this context represent not merely the theological spirit/body dualism, but true/false or good/evil components within the spirit of every human. If we live after the flesh (our inner evil essence), we're going to die...actually, the essence or property of evil will die, and this results in tribulation for the individual whose soul is being seared by the regenerative fire.

We must agree with A.Paul, "the penalty of sin is death". But elsewhere A.Paul talks of us being "dead in the flesh", which refers to our earthly existence. He means, seperating ourselves from the wants of the world and instead focus our lives to fulfill the wants of God. In other words the "evil in us" is already dead! The spirit/soul is already regenerated. Rom 8:5-11 makes this crystal clear.

We have a choice in time and space to use our will, but only in deference to God's decree that our "covenant with death" and "pact with Sheol" will be annuled (Isa 28:18)

I suspect you are misunderstanding Isa 28:18. Have a look at Isa 28:14-15. Verse 18 is a contrast, not a prophesy, the prophesy is vs 16-22. Verse 22 is interesting - " I have heard destruction decreed by the Lord God of Hosts for the whole land." (NEB)

If you choose not to believe Paul, how about Ezekiel, who under the guidance of the Spirit, prophecied, "...I will enter into judgment with you," declares the Lord GOD. And I shall make you pass under the rod, and I shall bring you into the bond of the covenant; and I shall purge from you the rebels and those who transgress against Me; I shall bring them out of the land where they sojourn, but they will not enter the land of Israel. Thus you will know that I am the LORD." (Ezek 20:36-38) The prophet goes on to state a few verses later, "As a soothing aroma I shall accept you, when I bring you out from the peoples and gather you from the lands where you are scattered; and I shall prove Myself holy among you in the sight of the nations.

And you will know that I am the LORD, when I bring you into the land of Israel, into the land which I swore to give to your forefathers. And there you will remember your ways and all your deeds, with which you have defiled yourselves; and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for all the evil things that you have done." (vv. 41-43) THis is perfectly consistent with Isaiah's assesment: "Therefore through this Jacob's iniquity will be forgiven; And this will be the full price of the pardoning of his sin: When he makes all the altar stones like pulverized chalk stones; When Asherim and incense altars will not stand." (Isa 27:9) Something internal is being annihilated, destroyed, regenerated. Evil as a property of spirit is being put to death. Something is destroyed from within Jacob [God's chosen].

I agree. While true believers, seperate themselves from the world, any inner evil is expunged from their lives. But this is not true of the wicked. In Ezekiel, Isaiah etc the message is turn to God with the right heart condition or else be destroyed with the nations of this world. (cp: Isa 29:1-6; Jerusalem's (Ariel's) destruction) .

Mal 3:2-4 tells us this purfying fire will result in the change to a state in which righteousness comes forth.

Now notice vs5. The righteous offerings are acceptable (vs4) but the wicked offerings are judged. Also note vs6, the spiritual sons of Jacob "are not consumed" but the wicked, though tracing their ancestory to Jacob are (vs 5).

It's absurd to suppose that Jesus was actually suggesting that we cut off body parts to keep from sinning in Mat 18; in fact, He was referring us to a process He performs in the spirit of every human, spiritual surgery. There is a completely consistent, congruous path to these principles in both Testaments.

I agree.

Look past the literal thing to what God's saying in universal essence. Everyone's going to (is in the process of being in) hell, with more to go in the afterlife for those who have not Christ's righteousness for their shield from the face to face encounter with the fiery furnace of God's pure, True information (the lake of fire everyone must face, Heb 9:27).

Heb 9:27 is fact. Everyone good or wicked dies a physical death and goes to dust, into the ground (shoel/hades), and all will be judged.

However, the rest of your comment isn't supported by scripture. For instance: Not everyone will face the "lake of fire" only those not written in the book of life, death, hades, satan and his angels, the beastie and his followers. Revelation is very specific. Is death cleansed or is death no more?

Same wise, Jesus is very specific about who gets thrown on the rubbish tip (Gehenna); and those that do, die body+soul. Their spirit is already dead.

So it's not merely surviving the burning, it's actually being made perfect in it. Fire is regeneration, and it's not wholly performed in an instantaenous event, as the popular view holds, but progressive and fragmented. We're being born as we're being killed, those who believe more so (to their benefit in the afterlife, see 1Cor 3:11-15) than the unbeliver (1Tim 4:10).

1 Cor 3:11-15 Quoting/interpreting the NEB - "There can be no other foundation beyond that which is already laid; I mean Jesus Christ himself." If anyone adds doctrines, the correctness of those doctrines will be exposed at the time of judgement and and the false destroyed, but "he will escape with his life, as one might from a fire."

Note 1 Cor 3:17. Those that defile the temple of God (church of believers), God shall destroy. There is no mention of fire. (cp v14 which contrasts those saved). The purifying of the individual is during his lifetime (vs 14) not after his death.

In my view the wicked are annihilated in every sense of the term, every part of them (conceivable and inconceivable) ceases to exist.

I agree; our difference lies in the fact that you are applying this annihilation to INDIVIDUALS and I'm applying it to ESSENCE or spirit.

Maybe a subtle difference. I see annihilation as applying to the body & soul &spirit, everything what makes one an individual. As the philosophers would say, our individuality is our existence - I am, because I choose to be; you are whom I choose to perceive. That said: something else that may seperate our opinion: I view the judgement as personal (individual) but the punishment/reward as collective - all those with the same heart condition are rewarded or punished equally.

As stated earlier, my view is the only one I know of that does restores perfection to the administration of God's attributes; love, mercy, justice, forgiveness. To destroy an individual completely is more merciful than eternal torment, but it still makes God violate His perfection...the individual in whom exists both good and evil essence fails the overriding perfection of God's attributes.

Philosophically, I would agree with you but scripturally I find no precedent nor a teaching that allows for your view. But that is my perception, which is influenced by the stories of Noah's days, where God destroyed everything on earth (or at least in the locale of the eastern mediterean). Animal, plant, man! Similar to the days of Lot. Then we have God commanding the Israelites to annihilate various tribes and God's anger when the Israelitites didn't completely annihilate certain tribes (preserving women and children). In the OT God occasionally seems pretty violate, but his reasoning is obvious. Pollute a pond, the water is undrinkable - all perish!

both [the NT & OT] teach that the punishment of the unrighteous occurs once and is everlasting.

Agreed. The "unrighteous" is a spiritual component which manifests itself in time and space in human thought, speech and behavior. Evil is a mutable property: why would God destroy the individual if He can change him/her?

Free will! It is upto us to accept God. The OT/NT testimony is God's battle with Satan for our hearts. Think on Satan's challenge to God in Job.

And Jesus said those unchosen would weep and gnash their teeth, for they would knew there destruction was at hand.

This is consistent with my view, too, you know. The Catholics, from whom I've been gone for more than 30 years now, have the notion of purgatory right after all, as I see it.

I think our difference regarding purgatory is more in the "when" than anything. I see purgatory, the crucible, the purifying fire as now. I've had many "hell times" in my life but they tended to strengthen my faith rather than diminish it. I've also had some "heaven times" and they occured when I was doing God's will rather my own (ie: trying to be a good husband, dad etc). The "purgatory times", have been trying to fix things from my "hell times". We are probably close to the same age. So I trust you might remember the 70s - or maybe not ;-) God has always been somewhere in my life, not neccessarily, me letting him be. Spirit willing, flesh weak thingy. My personal purgatory or in times past, limbo.

But hell is still hell, even if it ain't forever

How true. Sheol/Hades/Hell gets thrown into the lake of fire along with death. And death will be no more.

and the [RC] church today needs evangelization from within more than they need to perform it without, as soberly attested to by the Lord in Mat 7.

I think it was Brazil where, a couple of decades ago, the government confiscated the church's property and made the priests get a real job. Anyway, I remember the archbishop (who had been extracted from his mansions and was living in a slum) saying it was the best thing that had ever happened to him and the church in his country! It got it back to basics. And on TV he looked really happy!

God bless you in your walk, apostoli

My walk has been something of an adventure, sometimes the path has been extremely narrow, even precarious and sometimes I've travelled further than I needed, getting lost along the way, even getting carried away on freeways but then seeing a sign, I've found a fork or turnoff in the road that lead me to the right path. At times a lonely walk, but I trudge along. The city we seek cannot be too far away now...

All the best