GWB created ISIS?

[shunyadragon]

Sorry, but that suffers from the same problem. Sunni/Shia hated each other centuries before the US government got involved in the oil business.

Not a problem at all. They were denied their own national and cultural identity by Western colonial divide and conquer boundaries establishing their own colonies for their own interests.

A brought up the example of the history of Syria and you are ignoring the classic history of that country and the neighboring countries cut up in the western colonial pie.

When they DID have separate identities, they were killing each other. Ali was murdered by Sunnis, as was his son, Hussein, who was decapitated and his head given to the Sunni caliph in Damascus as a gift. His body was left at Karbala for the vultures. Shi'ite Azeri conquerors massacred the Sunnis in Iran in the 1500s. The split is the root of extremists like ISIS, not colonialism, and not "separate national identities".

True, but all over the world people were at war and killing tens of thousands like we did to our enemies religious and political, When the age of nations came into being nations formed, but in the Arab world and Africa colonial boundaries and Western manipulation ruled.

Your missing the point big time. We are living in world in the Middle East and Africa created by Colonial powers, and it is that that has shaped the violence we face today.

No. The sentiment extends well before colonialism, and even before the Crusades, the Mongol hordes, or the Ottoman Empire. The past 100 years was only adding oil to the already existing fire of hatred.

True all over the world regardless kingdoms and tribes were at war, but when the colonial era began it was Western Colonial interests ruled and divided the pie for their own purposes.

The past hundred years are important when Western interests suppressed moderate democratic movements in the region.

Um, no. If you would read the early history of the split, you would know that they are completely unrelated.

I most definitely read history and they are most definitely related.

And the existence of the Shia and Sunni conflicts that predate colonialism by over 1100 years is evidence that colonialism is not to blame.

True, but so what?!?!!? the Protestant/ Roman Church split is old news too, but we are still living with the consequences.

Right or wrong the creation of the State of Israel has contributed to problems.

The bottom line is our present war in the Middle East is embedded in history and the associated radical movements are not created by any one president.

You are avoiding the issue that YES, Western powers actively suppressed moderate democratic Islamic movements in the Middle East, and supported suppressive dictatorships. We are witnessing the consequences

[JimL]

No he didn't!! He blamed them for the GROWTH of ISIS, not for ISIS itself...

Rand Paul- "Isis exists and grew because of the hawks in our party"
Read before posting.

[Paprika]

Presidential hopeful Rand Paul blames GOP hawks for isis!

The neocon rage is palpable.

Looks like he's the first Republican candidate to take such a stand on this matter. At least there's something interesting to watch: the pack turning on one who breaks rank in such a manner.

[shunyadragon]

The neocon rage is palpable.

Looks like he's the first Republican candidate to take such a stand on this matter. At least there's something interesting to watch: the pack turning on one who breaks rank in such a manner.

Rand Paul has a valid point in part, but it is too simplistic to provide a complete explanation of why ISIS, and its growing appeal among Muslims.

[Paprika]

Rand Paul has a valid point in part, but it is too simplistic to provide a complete explanation of why ISIS, and its growing appeal among Muslims.

Right, but no one is pinning all the blame/responsibility on GWB, or the USA in general.

What is novel about Paul is that he is the first Republican candidate who has dared to claim that the US has significant responsibility for contributing to the current situation.

[Bill the Cat]

Rand Paul- "Isis exists and grew because of the hawks in our party"
Read before posting.

Then he is wrong. ISIS exists because they are Sunni and they want religious, political and military authority over all Muslims worldwide and that "the legality of all emirates, groups, states, and organisations, becomes null by the expansion of the khilāfah's [caliphate's] authority and arrival of its troops to their areas". Sunnis have wanted that since the 12th Caliph disappeared.

[Bill the Cat]

True, but so what?!?!!? the Protestant/ Roman Church split is old news too, but we are still living with the consequences.

And had they not split, there would be no consequences to deal with. The root of the problems rest with the split, not foreign nations centuries later. Same with Islam.

The bottom line is our present war in the Middle East is embedded in history and the associated radical movements are not created by any one president.

Nor by outside nations. The fight is for control of Islam, and the world after that.

You are avoiding the issue that YES, Western powers actively suppressed moderate democratic Islamic movements in the Middle East, and supported suppressive dictatorships. We are witnessing the consequences

No I am not avoiding it. I am directly rebutting it. The fight for control of Islam predates colonial involvement. Colonial actions are merely means to the end of controlling Islam. Remove colonialism from the equation, and they still were killing each other for control. Remove the split from the equation, and there was no significant internal squabbling.

[seanD]

Then he is wrong. ISIS exists because they are Sunni and they want religious, political and military authority over all Muslims worldwide and that "the legality of all emirates, groups, states, and organisations, becomes null by the expansion of the khilāfah's [caliphate's] authority and arrival of its troops to their areas". Sunnis have wanted that since the 12th Caliph disappeared.

And the governments of Iraq, Libya, Syria and Iran kept them in check for the most part. Until the fall of Iraq, Libya and the potential fall of Syria at the hands of US and its allies. Now we find out from the leaked Pentagon docs that this is what the US and its western allies intended in order to establish a "Salafist Principality." Well, sure enough, they got one. And now we know how ISIS rose to power so fast and where they got the training, funding and the arms to do it.

[shunyadragon]

And the governments of Iraq, Libya, Syria and Iran kept them in check for the most part. Until the fall of Iraq, Libya and the potential fall of Syria at the hands of US and its allies. Now we find out from the leaked Pentagon docs that this is what the US and its western allies intended in order to establish a "Salafist Principality." Well, sure enough, they got one. And now we know how ISIS rose to power so fast and where they got the training, funding and the arms to do it.

Where did ISIS get the arms and training to do it?

You are clearly documenting the long term involvement of western powers in the instability, violence and evolution of radical movements. In many parts of the Middle East including Afghanistan where Russian and US involvement had historic consequences.

[Bill the Cat]

And the governments of Iraq, Libya, Syria and Iran kept them in check for the most part. Until the fall of Iraq, Libya and the potential fall of Syria at the hands of US and its allies. Now we find out from the leaked Pentagon docs that this is what the US and its western allies intended in order to establish a "Salafist Principality." Well, sure enough, they got one. And now we know how ISIS rose to power so fast and where they got the training, funding and the arms to do it.

But again, GWB didn't CAUSE them, so the twit in the OP was wrong.

[seanD]

But again, GWB didn't CAUSE them, so the twit in the OP was wrong.

He was part of a bigger whole -- "Salafist Principality." Why Salafist Principality was necessary is a much bigger question.

[JimL]

But again, GWB didn't CAUSE them, so the twit in the OP was wrong.

Really? Until GWB, or should I say DC, fabricated evidence and without knowledgable authorization invaded Iraq, Isis didn't even exist. The GOP, whether it be in economic policy or in foriegn policy have a record of screwing up the works and then leaving the cleanup and the blame on the next administration.

[Cow Poke]

Really? Until GWB, or should I say DC, fabricated evidence and without knowledgable authorization invaded Iraq, Isis didn't even exist. The GOP, whether it be in economic policy or in foriegn policy have a record of screwing up the works and then leaving the cleanup and the blame on the next administration.

Can you please expound upon "knowledgable [sic] authorization"?

Thanks

[JimL]

Can you please expound upon "knowledgable [sic] authorization"?

Thanks

No prob. Michael Morell, GWB's CIA intelligence briefer, admitted to Chris Mathews on MSNBC"S Hardball that they lied us into war.

[Bill the Cat]

Really? Until GWB, or should I say DC, fabricated evidence and without knowledgable authorization invaded Iraq, Isis didn't even exist.

Yes they did!! They changed their name a few times, but they existed for quite some time. The group originated as Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad in 1999, which itself came from prior Jordanian and other Sunni Jihadist militants funded by Osama Bin Laden, who came from prior Afghan militants, etc. Please learn something before spouting off stupidity.

The GOP, whether it be in economic policy or in foriegn policy have a record of screwing up the works and then leaving the cleanup and the blame on the next administration.

Revisionist history is hilarious!!