Tribulational Flavors

[John Reece]

Today @ 05:40 PM post located here
Dee Dee Warren:

Ohhh Sollllyyyyyy

You are assuming what you need to prove and that is that Revelation is speaking of a worldwide judgment. It is not. And prefigurement (if that is a word) is NOT double fulfilment. The details of the earlier judgments are not particularly fulfilled in the later judgment, the themes are. And judgment themes are repititive but again that is not double fulfillment. And no one says (or will say) that the specific anicent judments upon Babylon were fulfilled in AD70 (different city - typology) or even in a futurist sense at the end of the world - different subject.

. . . Babylon was evil typified and God was giving Jerusalem the back of His hand by comparing them to their ancient enemy and using archetypical symbols of evil and apostasy.

Well you know I have a lot to say about the age thing so I will spare you the repitition, and agian, prefigurement is not double fulfillment. Judgements in Scripture frequently use clouds, coming, and trumpet imagery so I would expect the final judgment to follow suit, but that is not double fulfillment.

Thanks for that, Dee Dee.

[Dee Dee Warren]

Today @ 01:37 PM post located here
Bill the Cat:



And I beg to differ. There are more prophecies that have been "double fulfilled" than just the tyre one, such as Moses delivering the Israelites. And if one were to hear the Tyre prophecy when it was spoken, it would sound exacly like it were meant to be fulfilled in totality by Nebbuchadnezzar, which it was not. The idea put forth is called a type. A smaller pre-fulfillment of a grand event. Moses was the temporary deliverer, but Jesus was and is the deliverer proper. And like I said, if "all these things" have been fulfilled, they are totally irrelivant to us, so we have no need of them.

You are confusing prefigurments, typologies, and "hard" fulfillment. The passage is limited in time to its immediate fulfillment. There is nothing in the passage indicate it would have a future fulfillment at all. It amazes me that the clear timing verses from the mouth of Christ are so easily dismissed. So, Jesus' first coming is ocmpletely fulfilled. Is that irrelevant to us? Creation was done just once, is that irrelevant to us? Something being done does not make it irrelevant since the majority of the OT is narrative of past events. They are done. But they are written for our instruction. Chirst is the one who limited Matthew 24, at least up to verse 34, to the first century.

[Bill the Cat]

Like I said, it is still irrelivant to us. Yes creation is irrelivant to a certain degree. Preterists have no reason to look forward, be on your guard, etc...things Paul warned us of. "Time texts" are too rigidly adhered to. And like I've said many times, it doesn't make sense to me at all. And I've read all of "days of vengence" so it's not arguing from ignorance of the belief.

Like my wife says... there's no way this could be the millenium because I live in hell!!

Ugh, I wish I had time to extrapolate....

And I want my smiley!!

[John Reece]

I am persuaded:

• Luke 24
  
  44 Then he said to them, "These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled."

I am persuaded that there are no unfulfilled OT prophesies.

I am also persuaded that there are no NT prophesies that do not relate to the fulfillment of the teleology of John 14-17, Ephesians 1-4 and 1 Corinthians 12-15.

• Ephesians 3
  
  20 Now to him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, according to the power at work within us, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

[Dee Dee Warren]

Today @ 01:51 PM post located here
Bill the Cat:

Like I said, it is still irrelivant to us. Yes creation is irrelivant to a certain degree. Preterists have no reason to look forward, be on your guard, etc...things Paul warned us of.

But Bill this is classic question-begging. Are you going to then deny that creation is a past event because you feel that it is now irrelevant. You have conceded that to you parts of the Bible are irrelevant to a certain degree, so why not this part? Why the emotional attachment when Jesus limited the fulfillment? You have no problem accepting other things are past. So my answer to your objection, taking it as true for the sake of argument, so what? If it past, it is past. Nothing changes that, and so what if that then makes it partially irrelevant. If it is, it is.

"Time texts" are too rigidly adhered to.

Well let's say that the next time your paycheck comes due, your boss waves it off saying that you just adhere to concept of time too rigidly. You have just made inane whole phrases out of the Bible. God said specific time words for a reason. How can you justify hand-waving them away?

And like I've said many times, it doesn't make sense to me at all

It may in time. It didn't make sense to me at first either. But it also doesn't make sense to me that God would die for my sins either, but the Bible teaches it.

And I've read all of "days of vengence" so it's not arguing from ignorance of the belief.

Days of Vengeance isn't the best book to read on the subject. It is way too esoteric. Last Days Madness is the book you should read. If all I have read was DoV, I wouldn't buy it either. That is a book that presupposes an already existing preterist foundation. And I think Chilton was off his tree in parts of it.

Like my wife says... there's no way this could be the millenium because I live in hell!!

And I say there is no way this cannot be the Millenium because the Biblical chronology demands that is, my personal feelings do not matter.

[JackS]

I'm new here and just voted Preterist. Now I will say I use to defend Dee Dee on that other site and I never got kicked out.


I guess being offline during the great kick out helped.

[Bill the Cat]

And you know I love ya Dee Dee.!!

[QUOTE]Today @ 02:58 PM post located here
Dee Dee Warren:

But Bill this is classic question-begging. Are you going to then deny that creation is a past event because you feel that it is now irrelevant. You have conceded that to you parts of the Bible are irrelevant to a certain degree, so why not this part? Why the emotional attachment when Jesus limited the fulfillment? You have no problem accepting other things are past. So my answer to your objection, taking it as true for the sake of argument, so what? If it past, it is past. Nothing changes that, and so what if that then makes it partially irrelevant. If it is, it is.

No, I meant that just because God created however many years ago, he is not still creating. Creation is an ongoing thing, and not a prophecy. Just as the admonition to stay alert and not fall into drunkenness.

Well let's say that the next time your paycheck comes due, your boss waves it off saying that you just adhere to concept of time too rigidly. You have just made inane whole phrases out of the Bible. God said specific time words for a reason. How can you justify hand-waving them away?

Thanks, that's what I wanted you to say.
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,

So this means that ALL of Rev has been completed if soon means soon. because Jesus showed John the things that must soon take place, and says nothing about any gaps in time for distant future judgement or anything else past "soon"

It may in time. It didn't make sense to me at first either. But it also doesn't make sense to me that God would die for my sins either, but the Bible teaches it.

Not the same thing. And the Bible also teaches harmony in the animal kingdom during the millenium too, but that ain't happenin right now either.

Days of Vengeance isn't the best book to read on the subject. It is way too esoteric. Last Days Madness is the book you should read. If all I have read was DoV, I wouldn't buy it either. That is a book that presupposes an already existing preterist foundation. And I think Chilton was off his tree in parts of it.

I think he was off the whole forest on almost all of it. IMHO

And I say there is no way this cannot be the Millenium because the Biblical chronology demands that is, my personal feelings do not matter.

So see above on Rev 1:1 which, if soon means soon, then it all has happened, and that makes for full preterism.

And I still love ya Dee Dee. Even though we may disagree.

[Hitch]

So see above on Rev 1:1 which, if soon means soon, then it all has happened, and that makes for full preterism.

And I still love ya Dee Dee. Even though we may disagree.



Come on Cat I know we can expect better of you than this one.

H

[Solly]

Yesterday @ 05:40 PM post located here
Dee Dee Warren:
You are assuming what you need to prove and that is that Revelation is speaking of a worldwide judgment.

And you are assuming otherwise, because the praeterist NeoPostMill case depends upon it. Since prefigurment is a classic tool of the scripture writers, John's inspired allusions to events in the Roman empire can easily provide the launch pad for his message to the church throughout the church age, showing what is happening behind the scenes, not merely at that point.

And prefigurement (if that is a word) is NOT double fulfilment.

Prophecy is a lot more complicated that just the fact that something was predicted and then it comes to pass. Who would have thought that Hosea, in writing "Out of Egypt I have called my son" was also predicting something in Christ's life. DF is not involved in every prophetic statement.

The details of the earlier judgments are not particularly fulfilled in the later judgment, the themes are. And judgment themes are repititive but again that is not double fulfillment. And no one says (or will say) that the specific anicent judments upon Babylon were fulfilled in AD70 (different city - typology) or even in a futurist sense at the end of the world - different subject.

So it is themes. That can be handled in double fulfillment, because it is still a matter of taking references to one thing, and applying them to another. The whole Bible is predictinve in that sense, since the flood is also figurative of what is to come; DF to my mind does not need exact matching, just as Peter showed on the Day of Pentecost: this is that he sai, not thus is it fulfilled, in referring to Joel.

Because Babylon was evil typified and God was giving Jerusalem the back of His hand by comparing them to their ancient enemy and using archetypical symbols of evil and apostasy.

Really? So all those enemies have been cast into the lake of fire, and the New Jerusalem has descended from heaven just at the fall of Jerusalem. Most people would see the events in Rev as more cosmic in scope than that. But then, the P-NPM case requires said troublesome critters got out of the way, so that we can sail on to a glorious theonomic future.

Judgements in Scripture frequently use clouds, coming, and trumpet imagery so I would expect the final judgment to follow suit, but that is not double fulfillment.

As far as the references in Matt 24 are concerned, I am not refering to DF - there is only single F, and that is the end of the world/age when Christ returns physically. The judgments against Jerusalem prefigure the judgments and tribulation of the rest of the age, but Christ was close enough to the action not to need DF.
After all, if Christ was not returning physically at 70ad, then why, when warning them of false Christs, did he not just say, but I'm not coming back then, it will be a while longer? Where the false Christs coming in judgment? No. And what were the great signs and wonders these false Christs were showing?

Can you point out to me in scripture where three ages that follow back to back are recorded?

If there are three ages, then how can you make use of the now/not yet scema, since that was developed by those who hold to a two ages schema, in which the ages overlap, in which the ethical/eschatological age to come (the age of glory) is invading this present evil age. You see, Paul etc were writing in the previous age according to yourselves, which means that this age was invading his age, which isn't much use.

[Solly]

Yesterday @ 06:58 PM post located here
John Reece:
I am persuaded that there are no unfulfilled OT prophesies.

Then, IMHO, you cannot follow DD, for NeoPostMillennialism requires the fulfillment of the OT prophecies about a kingdom on earth. that is why it is called post Millennialism; Christ won't return until the kingdom has been established. The Theonomic twist is that not only is it a glorious future for the church, but society will also come under its sway, beecoming Christianised. (Quite a few NeoPostMills are Theonomists) which is what distinguishes it from classicPostMillennialism.

[Dee Dee Warren]

Today @ 03:20 AM post located here
Solly:

Yesterday @ 05:40 PM post located here
Dee Dee Warren:
You are assuming what you need to prove and that is that Revelation is speaking of a worldwide judgment.

And you are assuming otherwise, because the praeterist NeoPostMill case depends upon it. Since prefigurment is a classic tool of the scripture writers, John's inspired allusions to events in the Roman empire can easily provide the launch pad for his message to the church throughout the church age, showing what is happening behind the scenes, not merely at that point.

Well all we have each done is made statements of position, but I would not disagree that Revelation could have "typical" value in that point, but that does not change the fact that the primary fulfillment was in the first century.

And prefigurement (if that is a word) is NOT double fulfilment.

Prophecy is a lot more complicated that just the fact that something was predicted and then it comes to pass. Who would have thought that Hosea, in writing "Out of Egypt I have called my son" was also predicting something in Christ's life. DF is not involved in every prophetic statement.

Of course not but the primary fulfillment is the direct fulfillment. It is he primary fulfillment that fulfills the exact details. The prefigurement fulfillls the themes, but the exact details are not as important. My point remains.

The details of the earlier judgments are not particularly fulfilled in the later judgment, the themes are. And judgment themes are repititive but again that is not double fulfillment. And no one says (or will say) that the specific anicent judments upon Babylon were fulfilled in AD70 (different city - typology) or even in a futurist sense at the end of the world - different subject.

So it is themes. That can be handled in double fulfillment, because it is still a matter of taking references to one thing, and applying them to another. The whole Bible is predictinve in that sense, since the flood is also figurative of what is to come; DF to my mind does not need exact matching, just as Peter showed on the Day of Pentecost: this is that he sai, not thus is it fulfilled, in referring to Joel.

Direct fulfillment does indeed need exact mathes otherwise the prophecy is false. And of course the whole Bible is typologically predicftive, but you would not deny that the flood is a past event, despite any figurative value. You would not project the flood primarily into the future, and that is what is being done with the first century coming and the first century tribulation. And Joel was particularly fulfilled.

Because Babylon was evil typified and God was giving Jerusalem the back of His hand by comparing them to their ancient enemy and using archetypical symbols of evil and apostasy.

Really? So all those enemies have been cast into the lake of fire, and the New Jerusalem has descended from heaven just at the fall of Jerusalem. Most people would see the events in Rev as more cosmic in scope than that. But then, the P-NPM case requires said troublesome critters got out of the way, so that we can sail on to a glorious theonomic future.

I think you know I was referring to the bulk of Revelation. Those things happen at the close of the Millenium (another bad timing issue for amill) however the New Jerusalem is both a present and future reality.

Judgements in Scripture frequently use clouds, coming, and trumpet imagery so I would expect the final judgment to follow suit, but that is not double fulfillment.

As far as the references in Matt 24 are concerned, I am not refering to DF - there is only single F, and that is the end of the world/age when Christ returns physically. The judgments against Jerusalem prefigure the judgments and tribulation of the rest of the age, but Christ was close enough to the action not to need DF.

Well that is simply putting the cart before the horse and putting a schema upon the text. The specific time frame for direct fulfillment was given by Christ and it wasn't in our future, it is long past. You have turned it on its head.

After all, if Christ was not returning physically at 70ad, then why, when warning them of false Christs, did he not just say, but I'm not coming back then, it will be a while longer? Where the false Christs coming in judgment? No. And what were the great signs and wonders these false Christs were showing?

Why would He limit the time frame to the first century very dogmatically? Josephus records fraudulent miracle workers.

Can you point out to me in scripture where three ages that follow back to back are recorded?

If there are three ages, then how can you make use of the now/not yet scema, since that was developed by those who hold to a two ages schema, in which the ages overlap, in which the ethical/eschatological age to come (the age of glory) is invading this present evil age. You see, Paul etc were writing in the previous age according to yourselves, which means that this age was invading his age, which isn't much use.

That last statement made no sense to me and I know this is something you are developing further, so perhaps that should wait until then. I believe I have shown the three ages, so now the burden of rebuttal I think is upon you. An overlapping can be used effectively by either model. The Exodus imagery suits well, it is the transitional generation, it is not a black line in the sand which crosses one age to another it is a generational line.

At this point though, maybe we should take this into another thread.. I really would like this to stay a more surface level demographics thread, and yes I know, I started it.

Today @ 03:24 AM post located here
Solly:

Yesterday @ 06:58 PM post located here
John Reece:
I am persuaded that there are no unfulfilled OT prophesies.

Then, IMHO, you cannot follow DD, for NeoPostMillennialism requires the fulfillment of the OT prophecies about a kingdom on earth. that is why it is called post Millennialism; Christ won't return until the kingdom has been established. The Theonomic twist is that not only is it a glorious future for the church, but society will also come under its sway, beecoming Christianised. (Quite a few NeoPostMills are Theonomists) which is what distinguishes it from classicPostMillennialism.

Actually I think John would readily agree that he and I have significant disagreements in several areas. But the Kingdom is established, it is now growing. I am not sure what John meant by his statement, but depending upon how he meant it, he and I may be in complete agreeement for I can say the same thing. All the kingdom prophecies are being fulfilled now, but they are not done being fulfilled. There will come the consummation which will include the resurrection. I think your dichotomy between society and the church though in theonomy is somewhat misplaced, society will join the church which is how society comes under its sway. It is not the Church holding sway over a pagan society, it is a Christian society. I see though you do say that, it just seems a bit in conflict with the two terms.

[Bill the Cat]

Yesterday @ 08:57 PM post located here
Hitch:

So see above on Rev 1:1 which, if soon means soon, then it all has happened, and that makes for full preterism.

And I still love ya Dee Dee. Even though we may disagree.



Come on Cat I know we can expect better of you than this one.

H

1) Thanks, I appreciate your confidence in my ability
2) I told you guys I didn't have lots of time to extrapolate
3) Is this or is this not a "time text"?
4) Why couldn't the destruction of Jerusalem be a prefigure of a destruction on a more grand scale?
5) Man I wish I had more time!!

[John Reece]

Today @ 08:24 AM post located here
Solly:

Yesterday @ 06:58 PM post located here
John Reece:
I am persuaded that there are no unfulfilled OT prophesies.

Then, IMHO, you cannot follow DD, for NeoPostMillennialism requires the fulfillment of the OT prophecies about a kingdom on earth. that is why it is called post Millennialism; Christ won't return until the kingdom has been established. The Theonomic twist is that not only is it a glorious future for the church, but society will also come under its sway, beecoming Christianised. (Quite a few NeoPostMills are Theonomists) which is what distinguishes it from classicPostMillennialism.

Solly,

Who said I followed Dee Dee?

You have identified one of the reasons I quit allowing myself to be labeled a Postmillennialist, and never became a Theonomist, despite my great admiration and appreciation for both Postmillennialists and Theonomists. It's just that God and his Plan are even greater than they have yet comprehended.

[Solly]

Today @ 02:34 PM post located here
John Reece:
Solly,

Who said I followed Dee Dee?

You have identified one of the reasons I quit allowing myself to be labeled a Postmillennialist, and never became a Theonomist, despite my great admiration and appreciation for both Postmillennialists and Theonomists. It's just that God and his Plan are even greater than they have yet comprehended.

It was only oin the area of preterism that I made that comment John, I didn't know your other allegiances.

Tony

[John Reece]

Today @ 09:25 AM post located here
Dee Dee Warren:

Actually I think John would readily agree that he and I have significant disagreements in several areas. But the Kingdom is established, it is now growing. I am not sure what John meant by his statement, but depending upon how he meant it, he and I may be in complete agreeement for I can say the same thing. All the kingdom prophecies are being fulfilled now, but they are not done being fulfilled. There will come the consummation which will include the resurrection. I think your dichotomy between society and the church though in theonomy is somewhat misplaced, society will join the church which is how society comes under its sway. It is not the Church holding sway over a pagan society, it is a Christian society. I see though you do say that, it just seems a bit in conflict with the two terms.

Yes, Dee Dee, we agree for the most part, and the only disagreement is where I am quite alone - there is no school of interpretation that has grasped what I think I see. But to me it is so obvious I don't quite understand how it is missed, except for the principle declared in Isaiah 55.

John