OUR FEATURED MEMBER ARTICLE: The Theology of Hell by Just Joan

[Trout]

There are two major views of hell that are taken from the Christian Bible, they are annihilation as punishment and the traditional view where hell is a place of everlasting suffering. The traditional view is more fitting with the characteristics of God as presented in the Bible, the nature of sin, punishment, the language associated with hell, and apocalyptic images presented in the Bible. Annihilationism is not only unneeded to understand references to punishment, but creates contradictions.

God loves people, but He wants people to freely choose Him. One claim is that God cannot be a loving God and allow people to suffer for eternity as punishment. This loses sight of how God’s mercy is shown in the context of justice. God is a just God. It is fundamental to the need for Christ that God operate within a system of justice; otherwise a savior to take our place would have been unneeded. Deuteronomy 32:4 even says “all His ways are justice.” An everlasting punishment is not so unreasonable in light of the need for justice.
"God is infinite and infinitely holy. Anyone who sins has offended God... This offense is against and infinite God therefore the offense has an infinite consequence... Since God is infinite and the offense has an infinite offense (by offending an infinite God), then the punishment must be infinite - eternal damnation." (“Even”)

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 describes a vision of eternity where Christ is “all in all,” and “He has put all things under His feet.” Ephesians 1:9-10 says “having made known to us the mystery of His will… that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.” According to this view, the problem with the traditional view is that:

"We see a dualistic picture, one world of bliss and holiness, one world of utter horror and sinfulness… throughout eternity, the saved and the damned... Sin will be an eternal reality, evil will be an eternal reality… the kingdom of God will exist side by side with the kingdom of darkness." (Theonomy)

References to destruction make universalism unreasonable in the annihilationist perspective and thus only annihillation can be true.

It is a mistake to think that at the end when everything is brought into submission to God all that would now oppose Him will be destroyed. Everything is already under God’s power, He is just allowing choice for a time but He still retains the ultimate power or say over what happens. In Luke 8:29 Jesus commanded a demon to leave a man. Demons must submit to His will. This world is already subject to the authority of God who created it. If the only options are universalism or annihilationism, then that denies the powers of God to do anything to change these people. Rebellion won’t be an option and denial will be impossible. All will be forced to recognize and submit to the authority of God, but those who did so before will be rewarded and those who did not will suffer as justice dictates and choices made beforehand lead to.

The nature of destruction of the lost can also be a partial destruction.
“The Hebrews thought of man as a unit with a body, soul (animal life), and spirit (that aspect of man which enables him to commune with God) inseparably related. Apart from the body, the soul was not the complete man.” (Hessert 199)

Lacking one part makes a person less than a whole person and the unglorified body of the unsaved will be resurrected for judgment. (Laudate_Dominium, Phatcatholic) Yet even if in the course of punishment, one part will be fully destroyed and annihilationism otherwise shownto be true, then more than merely a crumbs or ashes of a body will remain.

The problem of eternity in annihilationism is that in an effort to prove the complete obliteration out of existence that happens to those who go to the lake of fire is then that one must view the word for eternal in description of destruction as meaning that it will be finished and irreversible. While the irreversible aspect rightly describes it, it also forces the word eternal to thus describe that which has end. Now the same word is used to describe eternal life and to describe eternal punishment or destruction, so it can be assumed that the lives of Christians are as much an everlasting state of reality as destruction and Gehennah is for the damned. This is true even in the OT (Old Testament) as in Daniel 12:2 which speaks of some rising “to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt.” This “eternal,” “everlasting” fire described in the Bible show that the right view of eternity is indeed a dualistic view. 1 Timothy 1:17 refers to “the King eternal, immortal, invisible…” Hebrews 9:14 makes reference to the “eternal Spirit” through which Christ was offered. 2 Corinthians mentions the “eternal house” in heaven. If we redefine eternal to mean everlasting in effect only, then this goes against the very concept of God and heaven that Christianity has always taken from the Bible. In light of this, it is unfitting to redefine “eternal” to make sense of the ideas that people bring about what destruction should mean.

One of the differences between annihilationism and the traditional biblical view is the understanding of the words for destruction. Some of the words used do not always hold meanings in accordance with, and indeed in other circumstances would hold meanings that would be contradictory in annihilationism. The annihilationist understanding therefore goes beyond the literal meaning in other context where the meaning of these words is clear. They therefore define a limited based on an interpretation of the words used.
It must be said that the pasages which speak of destruction… do not necessarily imply the cessation of existence, for in these passages the terms used for ‘destruction’ do not necessarily imply a ceasing to exist or some kind of annihilaiton, but can simply be ways of referring to the harmful and destructive effects of final judgment on unbelievers. (Grudem 1150)

Annihilation also violates a fundamental characteristic of the Bible which is that the Bible does not contradict itself but rather can be used to create a logical, coherent, scripturally based theology without contradiction. It may be worth noting that in definitions of destroy in dictionaries include meanings other than bringing to non-existence, such as total defeat, damage beyond repair, and ruin.

Matthew 10:28 is sometimes used to support annihilationism where it says “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” Apollumi, which is translated here as “destroy” does not necessitate obliteration out of existance. It “literally means ‘to loosen,’ but often means to destroy or tear apart or come apart. It does not necessarily mean nothing will be left.” (Jaltus) Those that are “destroyed” in this way are not obliterated out of existence, but lost to God or life or hope forever. This is the same word used in Luke 17:27 and 2 Peter 3:6 to describe what happened to the unrighteous in the flood and Luke 17:29 what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah yet these people exist to be resurrected. The same word is used in numerous verses to speak of that which is lost as in the parables about lost sheep and lost coins. People who are destroyed in this manner have no hope but will exist separated from God, never to be made alive with the presence of God or be again what they once were or could have been.

“Olethros” is translated as “destruction” in 2 Thessalonians 1:9, “And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.” To speak of "eternal" would be superfluous unless there is some reason to think that the destroyed would suddenly come back to existence later. The very fact that this destruction is described as eternal may suggest that it is something other than a mere annihilation. Furthermore, this same Greek word is used in the Septuagint in Ezra 14:16 to describe how the land might be rendered "desolate." Certainly the idea is not that the land would be annihilated. This indicates that this Greek word need not refer to annihilation. This word can then refer to the desolate state that the unsaved will suffer in apart from God. The eternal then indicates that this state will last eternally without end.

Although some annihilationists may claim otherwise, the traditional view does account for the fact that many passages referring to hell and end times are figurative. Mark 9:48 quotes Isaiah 66:24 in reference to the fire not being quenched and the worm never dying. Worms would eat away at a body of a dead person in this world after the first death. The worm that doesn’t die hardly seems like a literal reality, but one can see in this a kind of destruction, whatever the destruction is, that always happens but is never completed as this punishment or judgment consumes but is never satisfied once and for good. With fire representing God's judgment, it might be argued that judgment doesn’t simply stop as if they had been obliterated out of existence, but that the unquenched is never finally satiated to be no more. An unquenched fire is always consuming.

Belief in the truth of Christian scripture necessitates by its very make-up a belief in the inferrance of God in the religion of the people in it. Many times in the Bible pagan influences were accepted by the Jews and then some event brought about a rejection of false religious followings. If some false influence were to have taken hold at some point in the Bible, proper consequence would have occurred. (Maher 2) The original idea of an immortal soul in hell came not from Hellenic influence, but Zoroastrian. In it, hell was endured before the final resurrection and then mortal souls would be given immortality. “The Zoroastrian view is more akin to the traditional view in Christianity… Many modern scholars argue that Zoroastrianism should be properly considered the source of the very concept of hell for the Abrahamic Monotheistic faiths.” (Falcioni) Although in Zoroastrianism beings like demons were annihilated at the resurrection point, the lack of scriptural objection near the time this happened does give strong indication of the acceptance of the immortality of souls by the Jews in the Bible who remain the theological predicessors to Christianity.

The historic Christian view of hell is that refered to as the traditional view. Many of the early writings demonstrate similar language as the Bible in describing hell. Other works give an even more explicit view of how they understood it. In his work Apology in A.D. 197, Tertullian described hell as “the punishment of everlasting fire--that fire which, from its very nature indeed, directly ministers to their incorruptibility." (“Corunum”) The early church leaders were much closer than people today to the writers of the Bible and they still taught this.

Slight differences in may exist in the understanding that different groups have, yes despite this, mainstream Protestantism holds the traditional view of everlasting suffering just as many throughout Christian history have. The Catholic Church has maintained the traditional view for some two thousand years. (Maher 3) Despite differences in understandings of many other things, the traditional view is one of the most unifying beliefs within Christianity. If some two thousand years of Bible study have not taken away from the proliferation of this view, then some personal observation seems more a reason to study further than to abandon this long held doctrine.

(All Scripture references taken from New King James Version.)

“Even More Quotes From Universalists.” Christian Apologetics and
Research Ministry. 5 Dec. 2005 <http://www.carm.org/uni/uniposts3.htm>.

“Heaven and Hell” Curunum Apologetic Web Site. Ed. Joseph A. Gallegos. 5 Dec 2005. <http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/heaven.htm>.

Falcioni, Ryan. “RE: Hellfire and Damnation, or Why I Disagree with Annihilation by [author's legal name removed]” Email to the author. 6 Dec. 2005.

Grudem, Wayne. Systematic Theology. Grand Rapids: Zondervan Publishing House, 2000.

Hessert, Paul. Introduction to Christianity. Englewood Cliffs: Prentice-Hall, Inc., 1958.

Jaltus. “Re: Destruction Question.” Email to the author. 15 June 2005.
LaHaye, Tim, et al, eds. Tim LaHaye Prophecy Study Bible. Chattanooga: AMG, 2001.

Laudate_Dominum. “Resurrection and the Unsaved.” Online posting. 4 Dec 2005. <http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=43802>.

Maher, Sr. Terry. Personal interview. 3 Dec. 2005.

Phatcatholic. “Resurrection and the Unsaved.” Online posting. 4 Dec 2005. <http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=43787>.

Strong, James. The New Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1990.

Theonomy. “Opening Statement Against the Affirmative” Online posting. 17 June 2005. <http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=54937>.

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[gharfish]

Trout:

To respond to this article, should I post here or in the other one that is presently two posts above (to the north !) ? It seems to have an icon indicating it is closed, right ? And yet it is the only one of the two, where this article is printed, that has a "reply" function to click on (at the bottom).

Also, this article is open to debate, apparently. So, can I "oppose" it (traditionalism) right here ?

Thanks,
Vee

[gharfish]

(...in a holding pattern !)

[Sparko]

You can reply here Vance. But be aware that this area is not for heated debate.

[gharfish]

Yes, I did notice Trout's "warning." I will be gentlemanly, and discuss the matter simply as a fellow student.

I guess that Theonomy has already had his say; that not too long ago he participated with one "Fred" (?) in a formal 1-on-1 debate...with who is now our "Just Joan" gal, I think.

(I'm pulling my notes together...

and thanks for the reply, Sparko.

[Telemaco]

I'm not in accord with the view that eternal punishment is more in accord with what the Bible says about God: in effect, if we think about the punishment of Cannanites, Sodom, etc. we notice that God don't put people in an "eternal suffering" but to death.

Bible anthropology, as conceded by more and more scholars, is about a being that's ONE and one only (if one consider any bible passage where the words Nephesh and Psychè occour this must be evident)

[gharfish]

"Traditionalism," has indeed been the long-standing majority view for...centuries. 'I'll get into' what I see makes up that view, later, but right-off I'd like to say that I hold to conditionalism--and, to something quite like annihilationism too. I think that conditional mortality is the correct theology of Hell, and that the purest-to-form doctrine of traditionalism is (quite honestly) a serious heresy that requires removal and replacement. It is too far from being truly scripturally supportable that it deserves to be rejected. This is of course "not from the Lord," and is the judgement from my studies on the subject.

I am a salvationist--an evangelist--and this model of Hell is, IMO, among the very worst possible things to still be hanging-up the progress of doing the work of God; to share the good news of salvation, through Jesus, with all men. While there is the very bad news, by default, on the "flip side" of the salvation message of Jesus' (as understandable in perhaps the core verse 'we' all know: John 3:16), and it must be told too. What that is must be as accurately as we can possibly tell (from scripture: now) is that which is given to those who are hearing the overall gospel of the Lord God, Jesus Christ.

This is a huge, complicated subject, and I wish I could, somehow, in one sitting (!), speak of what I have discovered in my own solemn and zealous search for the truth of the nature and purpose of Hell / The Lake of Fire (which is the Second Death). I don't know where to begin. Way, way too much ground to cover.

Well, I guess that the first thing I will assert is that "traditionalism" really cannot stand without the presumption that human souls are inherently immortal being absolutely true: that God made them this way; they cannot, because of their created nature, pass-away...ever...never. They--WE--exist never-endingly after death, and "will spend all eternity in either heaven or hell." Period.

God alone is immortality--eternal. Our exisitence at all times is entirely conditional on His will and power to give us life, body and soul. If we wish to understand the concept of eternity, we ought to examine (it) in Him. In traditionalism, it's not only the saved who inherit eternal life, but the lost are also given the gift of eternal life in torment...kept alive forever in their own immortality of the soul so that (their) indestructabiility assures that they will never escape whatever agonizing pains are there...in the place prepared for the devil and his angels.

We humans all, then, are naturally immortal, in soul (& body, for the lost at the white throne, final judgement are physically resurrected; body reunited with soul. --Certainly it's the present view of the Christian majority that their souls, anyway, will more-than-just-survive The Lake of Fire, & that for all time. And because our souls cannot die, be utterly destroyed, brought to total ruin; they necessarily then must suffer the torments and tortures of hell: unceasing, fully-concious pain...beyond all imagination in it's severity.

Does this notion of human souls being intrinsically indestructible, or that God wills not, and (so) will not punish the rejectors of His grace by destroying them eternally--even totally, by some point--come from the Bible, really ? If in forgetting the latter for now, centering right on the doctrine of souls that cannot be destroyed; is that from scripture ?! Was it even from Jewish tradition ?

To be blunt; traditionalism came to us originally from pagan Greek philosophy. It came by way of Socrates, Plato, and then went on to be taken-up by early church fathers such as Clement of Rome, Ignatious of Antioch, Athenagoras (127-190), Tertullian (born about 160 AD), Clement of Alexandria...indirectly via Origen...St. Augustine (now hard doctrine: 300s AD)...and then shuffled-on with too little care by Anselm (d.1117), Thomas Aquinas (d.1274)......

I'll back-up, and let the flames die down after that ! There's too much to tell there, and so...here's something else !

There was no assurance of life after death in early Israelite history. Greatly / by-and-large, people believed that they were gathered to an underworld (Sheol) were everyone existed as mere shades/shadows of their formal whole selves. Not until the 500s BC did God reveal to the prophet Daniel that a resurrection would occur, for sure, and that all would be judged and either given life eternal, or be raised "to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan. 12:2) Things were finally made entirely, finally clear regarding this all-important truth when The Son of God, Jesus, Himself, brought the revelation that we now have--are SO privileged to have.

(But) I'll retreat back to the topic of--no--not yet Hell, but to the the roots of the roots of it. First there was Sheol...and it was the abode of the dead in early Hebrew thought. It was the undifferentiated place where what survived them from their lives went. Faithful Jews were gathered unto their people; figuratively, "the bosom of Abraham." It has been rendered in the KJV 31 times as "the grave," 3 times as "the pit," and (here's a problem !!): 31 times as--incorrectly--"hell." In the NIV it is translated as "grave," and at least once as "the realm of the dead." In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Lk. 16: 19-31) Jesus speaks of it having two compartments, dividing the faithful and repentent from (well...those who were neither), and this additional revelation, taken literally by most conservative scholars, sheds new light on the intermediate state for (not only)those who may have been liberated by Jesus when He went there, and emerged victorious in resurrection (Acts 2: 27 & 31), but for the lost who remain there awaiting the final judgdement (Rev. 20: 11-15). It would seem now that we can conclude that the condemned dead do exist, in the form of (proper) souls. Are they conscious, though ? Some say yes. If so, how does that feel, I wonder.

So what is hades, you may ask (or not !?) It's the same as the above, except now in the Greek language. Just as we will (will we ?) 'see' in the case of our "Gehenna" being Greek for the Hebrew "Valley of Hinnom".......which, in turn, was previously "Topeth." What does that matter ? These are the roots of what Jesus said the real place of final punishment would be like...resemble in some real ways. I'll go on to hell, then.....>_<

When Jesus told his listeners that the punishment for rejecting the salvation that He would go on to accomplish for them; freely offer as a merciful pardon for their sins, all (and that, too, if they willed He would present --impart, an everlasting life beyond the grave to them) He said that those guilty of refusing would come to the end of that choice in an other-worldly place that He illustrated by referring to a real, current-day, place they all knew well of: "...Hinnom," which is "Gehenna," which is our "hell." Hell, or Gehenna of fire, to Jesus' audience was the actual site outside S.E. of the walls of Jerusalem where the city's garbage was dumped. It was continually aflame. There were all things organic and inorganic there, either burning-up, rotting-away, or both.

It had a horrible history as well. This would impress Jesus' contemporaries even more; that the place that final judgement could, potentially, be their's to suffer (it's) punishment was grossly loathsome and even more horrible than what they could presently see happening in the historic "Valley of Hinnom." Originally, it was a royal pleasure garden, a kingly music grove......but it had a LONG fall, to where it was a site known for the worship of Baal--much worse still: precisely, too, where the idol Molech was worshipped by the mass sacrificing of infants, by fire. It was a fire-god to the Phoenicians & Ammonites, and became (like Baal) a Semitic "god," much to their shame. The victoms were slowly burnt to death in the arms of the idol, which were made of metal, hollow, and could be heated by a fire inside it.

Well, I better knock-off for tonight. I wanted to paint a picture--rather, try to show "the picture" that Jesus gave to those hearing Him speak of what Hell would be like. His imagery should not be ignored. It is figurative, but I think it has a literal point, yes ? Any discussion of Hell must involve the common language that Jesus employed. It has tremendous meaning; we just need to try to sort it out, so to speak (just as did those who first-hand witnesses, who were in the best place possible to fully appreciate Jesus' this very down-to-earth warning from the divine mind of Jesus).


*end, pt. 1*

[OMEGA7]

For anyone who has studied the bible for over 35 years like I have

would easily know the HELL - GEHENNA - THE LAKE OF FIRE

is exacltly that , a Physical Lake of Fire fed by OIL and Gas

which is common in the Middle East.

Jesus said that the Pharasees would be Cast on the local Garbage Dump

where the Garbage and dead bodies were burnt.

After Armageddon there will be alot of Dead bodies and Armaments

that will have to be burnt. Those who go to the Lake of Fire will be

working there throwing in the Garbage. That is it .

There will be NO Tormenting of HUMANS just Hot sweaty workers.

[gharfish]

For anyone who has studied the bible for over 35 years like I have

would easily know the HELL - GEHENNA - THE LAKE OF FIRE

is exacltly that , a Physical Lake of Fire fed by OIL and Gas

which is common in the Middle East.

Jesus said that the Pharasees would be Cast on the local Garbage Dump

where the Garbage and dead bodies were burnt.

After Armageddon there will be alot of Dead bodies and Armaments

that will have to be burnt. Those who go to the Lake of Fire will be

working there throwing in the Garbage. That is it .

There will be NO Tormenting of HUMANS just Hot sweaty workers.

Gehenna (from which we get our word, hell) is essentially synonymous for the lake of fire ("which is the second death"). Gehenna--an illustration used by Jesus to describe the Hell--is the garbage dump you are referring to, OMEGA7.

The lake of fire, which brings about the second death, is the final revelation--terms--that Jesus gave to His disciple John in the book of Revelation about what we know as the actual Hell. That is; what Jesus says about it there is, literally, the final say (re.) the final station of punishment for those who have been lost to God--condemned for their unforgiven sins; those who refused God's offer of grace all the way to the end of their natural lives. Jesus' first mentioning of it is in chapter 2 where He promises that any martyred for His name/the kingdom of God would be given the crown of life: the gift of eternal life. For these overcomers, they would be given immunity to the second death: "...will not be hurt at all by the second death." John again records Jesus' saying in Rev. 21: 8 that the unrepentent and unfaithful of all men will not be given eternal life (v. 6b,7a), but "...their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulphur (brimstone). This is the second death."

So says Jesus ! And this is a real place/destiny, and (yet) it's not an earthly place...where as you put it "the pharisees...'and the dead from Armaggedon (along with their weapons) would be thrown into, tended by hot sweaty workers."

I am guessing that you are referring to the prophecies of Ezekiel's, from the 38th and 39th chapters (all); especially 39: vs. 9 through 16. The dead killed here, (IMO sometime during the seven-year long tribulation period one can see unfolding in the book of Revelation), are to be buried in a yet to be located valley and town, called "HamonGog...'Hamonah." This place is not going to be where gehenna was (the Hinnom valley), but to the east, beyond the Kidron, toward the Dead (salt) Sea, in it's own glen or valley. The northern tip of the Dead Sea is some fifteen miles due east from Jerusalem. The Jordan R. meets it there.

But this is really not the point, regardless of how close this yet to be used valley is to Jerusalem and it's immediate Hinnom/gehenna garbage dump that is associated with the other-wordly Hell. The point is that Hell is the place of destruction--body and soul--of all those who absolutely rejected and refused Jesus in their lifetimes.

The historical place/name of "gehenna" was indeed a fiery garbage dump just outside the city walls of Jerusalem in Jesus' 'day.' It was located in a gorge or valley known as Hinnom. Gehenna is the Greek for Hinnom. Topeth is an earlier name for this exact same place.....in Israel. It lay no more than a quarter mile away, and 'curved around' to the east to meet the valley of Kidron at the southernmost point of the lower city.

Enough said--more than enough said ! Your summing-up statement that no one will be tormented in a Hell is wrong (according to Jesus). Your "HELL - (GEHENNA) -THE LAKE OF FIRE" may be just a physical, middle-eastern, fed by oil and gas kind of place, but it was not Jesus' !! It's that other place...of final, permanent, irreversable, total destruction of those people judged guilty --well; see for yourself in Revelation 20: 11-15.

Verse 14b, 15: "The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (italics mine.)

(Where is the "White Throne" of last judgement locted in the middle east ? How long have you studied the Bible ?! I kid. I kid.)




* a P.S.: Jesus, knowing the O.T. scriptures as He did, knew that by comparing gehenna to the real Hell, prepared for the Devil and his fallen angels, and to come for the lost condemned of mankind; purposefully made known that (Hell) was and is a "valley of slaughter." The key to understanding that ? --> the scriptures in Jeremiah that call it that, as a punishment for those who worshipped and gave human sacrifices to Baal and Molech. (See ch. 7: 30-32 & ch. 19: 1-6).

[hereoisreal]

Vance:

>There was no assurance of life after death in early Israelite history. Greatly / by-and-large, people believed that they were gathered to an underworld (Sheol) were everyone existed as mere shades/shadows of their formal whole selves. Not until the 500s BC did God reveal to the prophet Daniel that a resurrection would occur, for sure, and that all would be judged and either given life eternal, or be raised "to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan. 12:2) Things were finally made entirely, finally clear regarding this all-important truth when The Son of God, Jesus, Himself, brought the revelation that we now have--are SO privileged to have.<

IMO,there are 3 places: heaven, hell, and home. (Read the story of the prodigal
son Lk. 15:11)


The new birth: (Borne again)

.
Jhn 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees,
named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Jhn 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him,
Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for
no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say
unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is
old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit,
he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh;
and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Jhn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the
sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and
whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit

Years ago I wrote a little poem about this wind:

A gentle breeze
stirs the trees.
Wind's affect
is what one sees.
(Prey For The Wind)


Eze 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are
the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried,
and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts
. Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus
saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open
your graves, and cause you to come up out of
your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD,
when I have opened your graves, O my
people, and brought you up out of your graves,

Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live,
and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know
that I the LORD have spoken [it], and performed [it], saith the LORD
Ez. 37:9 Then He said to me, "Prophesy to the breath, prophesy,
son of man, and say to the breath, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Come
from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live."
10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and breath came into them,
and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great army.

Notice these are slain.


The new birth steps:

Step #1 God puts all bones together.
Step #2 God puts flesh on bones.
Step #3 God opens graves.
Step #4 God brings all Israel out of graves.
Step #5 God puts his spirit in each body.
Step #6 Each shall live.
Step #7 God places them in their own land, Israel
.
Then they'll know God said it and did it
.
For 342 stories in my life, go to <http://www.hereoisreal.com>
It's free and I'm not sellin' T - shirts

Zero

[Barbarossa]

I think it's strange that people imagine the physical act of splashing about in a lake of fire when they think of hell. When imagining an afterlife-- whether heaven or hell, it seems absurd to think of our conciousness carrying on in a form that in anyway resembles our living conciousness. Our brain defines our personality and our perception of pain, happiness, etc. For many people such as Alzheimer's patients, or people who suffer brain damage, their brains and all of the things that go along with it (personality, memory) don't even survive to the end of their lives. Why would we imagine that the whole package can somehow survive death-- it's crazy! Our souls certainly don't contain our memories, emotions, pain reception, etc that our living bodies are equipped with to survive on earth. That is obvious in people who lose all of those things after suffering some alteration to their brain chemistry or structure.

a quick example-- after severe accidents, sometimes a side effect of brain trauma is that the suppression mechanism for aggression in the brain gets damages, turning the victim into a ticking time bomb of aggression-- sometimes they can't even function in society. Does that mean that their soul was changed too? of course not-- even though their condition might drive them to "sinful" acts. But then one might say "well God would understand-- he would be accepted as he was before the accident" but what about conditions like fetal alcohol syndrome? people who were doomed before they were born-- they often grow up to be dysfunctional people who sometimes might not fit very well into your average christian community. Again you might say "God would understand, he sees all" ..well if he is understanding, then won't he understand all of our short comings because so much of what we are is a product of our environment and our biology?

[hereoisreal]

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The new birth steps:

Step #1 God puts all bones together.
Step #2 God puts flesh on bones.
Step #3 God opens graves.
Step #4 God brings all Israel out of graves.
Step #5 God puts his spirit in each body.
Step #6 Each shall live.
Step #7 God places them in their own land, Israel
.
Then they'll know God said it and did it

Zero

[gharfish]

I think it's strange that people imagine the physical act of splashing about in a lake of fire when they think of hell. When imagining an afterlife-- whether heaven or hell, it seems absurd to think of our conciousness carrying on in a form that in anyway resembles our living conciousness. Our brain defines our personality and our perception of pain, happiness, etc. For many people such as Alzheimer's patients, or people who suffer brain damage, their brains and all of the things that go along with it (personality, memory) don't even survive to the end of their lives. Why would we imagine that the whole package can somehow survive death-- it's crazy! Our souls certainly don't contain our memories, emotions, pain reception, etc that our living bodies are equipped with to survive on earth. That is obvious in people who lose all of those things after suffering some alteration to their brain chemistry or structure.

a quick example-- after severe accidents, sometimes a side effect of brain trauma is that the suppression mechanism for aggression in the brain gets damages, turning the victim into a ticking time bomb of aggression-- sometimes they can't even function in society. Does that mean that their soul was changed too? of course not-- even though their condition might drive them to "sinful" acts. But then one might say "well God would understand-- he would be accepted as he was before the accident" but what about conditions like fetal alcohol syndrome? people who were doomed before they were born-- they often grow up to be dysfunctional people who sometimes might not fit very well into your average christian community. Again you might say "God would understand, he sees all" ..well if he is understanding, then won't he understand all of our short comings because so much of what we are is a product of our environment and our biology?

This post isn't enough "about" Hell, (but) does apply in a way to that subject because the thrust of it seems to be an assertion that there is no immaterial part of a human being; no soul (or "mind" if you prefer) to survive physical death, and therefore there is nothing "left" of people to be judged by God for the way they lived their lives...in light of what revelation--divine and/or general--they had been given, by Him.

Jesus clearly taught that those who with full knowledge and enough opportunity to repent of their disbelief, until the end, chose to finally reject and refuse the gift of pardon for sins and everlasting life; they would not be given either (no surprise) and they would perish in Hell as a result. Beyond that, what is God's will--what He will do--with those who did not have this special/divine revelation with which to act upon in faith, or not, is not something a Christian can afford to say with certainty. A Christian risks too much the possibility of error to try to pass-along with the gospel (at the same time) this remaining 'news'.....even though there are rather strong markers about how else a person can successfully rebell against God; put themselves beyond God's grace. The Bible only gives us indications; not the absolute certainty of salvation vs. condemnation as it has to do with what people will do with God's Son, Jesus, once they have heard and understand.

What I see in this post is the belief in materialism, and I won't call it strict, hard materialism as if that is (morally) worse than "soft." (It isn't). It looks like you, Barbarossa, do not believe that any "mind" exists separately from the material brain. I feel sure that you reject the Christian concept of every person having such a "mind" which survives death--which is what is the soul 'is,' or, maybe better said; can do. Our souls would be the more (essential (?) "half" of us, and go on to bear the full personality of all we ever were on earth. Therefore they also retain our culpability to God, concerning whether or not we yielded ourselves to Him and dealt with our sins in the only way He accepts: reconciliation made available through His Son's substitutionary saving work on the cross. If we are to believe Jesus, we know that death is not the end...our brains are indeed outlived !

Here is what I understand about the kind of materialism which runs counter to the things that Jesus said were true: Well, to start, by looking to Carl Sagan; a bottom-line 'error' can be stated, that the Cosmos is all that was, is, or ever will be. Everything is matter or reducible to it and dependent on it. If matter were to cease to exist, nothing would remain.

Most materialists would agree with Sagan that matter is almost certainly eternal and, continuing, it came to be--exist--from nothing and by nothing. It had no outside help-like, say, from a creator God...and (sprang-to-life !) spontaneously. Along these lines, this belief would hold that the universe is self-sustaining and self-generating. The world needs nothing in the way of an intelligent mind behind it; the world explains itself, by itself. The strictest materialist would point to science to discredit the religious notion that any spiritual/soul dimension exists, and there is no "mind" at all, only the chemical reactions going on inside the brain. What Christians will say is the mind operating in the soul of us all, is denied as only a process in the brain. Christians believe that we are more than just our brain functioning.

A less stringent materialist, might agree that a "mind" can exist separately, simultaneously, from the brain but it cannot exist independently of the material. When the brain dies so does the mind or soul. Jesus taught that upon our deaths our souls continue to exist, and will so for sure until we are judged by God. Specifically, for the lost/condemned; they will be judged when their souls are reunited with their physical bodies. He taught a resurrection to judgement, where all those who would be "cast into 'the lake of fire, to suffer 'the second death" (Rev. 20: 11-15) would be given conditional immortality for this purpose. Where these souls--persons--have existed since the time of the death of their bodies, is only called Sheol (in the Greek: Hades). Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16: 19-31 tells us something about this intermediate state. Here is Hades, desribed both metaphorically and literally--mixed. The souls there exist. The parable teaches (at least) that literally. They are being held for judgement. Some will be granted eternal life to their souls; they will be given imperishable bodies too, and the remaining will pass into a place of permanent separation from God, that, with all of it's metaphors, is a place Jesus tells us is of certain destruction to both body and soul. What the agents of destruction are and how long it will take--these things--aren't revealed. It's no accident, IMstrongO, that irresistable fire is the central metaphor for 'what happens to you' in Hell. It is a timeless and universally understood way of conveying the power and fury of God as He executes punishment against all ungodliness. It is God consuming His foe: evil, in all it's forms.

'Luke 16's' Hades, however, is not this final place of punishment that we commonly refer to as Hell. When Jesus speaks of "gehenna," in the four gospels, and "the lake of fire / which is 'the second death," (twice) in the final revelation of His, recorded in the book of Revelation, these taken together are what we should see as being what Hell is.

I'll go back to the subject of materialism, as it has to do with the soul (that) Jesus said we don't just 'have,' but are... I guess I'll actually try to argue that the soul can exist, and could survive the separtion from the body.

Just because certain mental functions can be explained in physical ways does not necessarily mean that they are completely dependent on physical processes. There may be ways for the mind--soul, to think independently of the brain. It could have access to the world, and other 'worlds' too, such as dimensions that are spiritual in nature. A thought: Christians, Jews and Muslims all believe that angels are spiritual beings that are conscious...sentient. The possiblity that there may be a spiritual dimension is something the materialist wants to avoid, and the total destruction of personhood with brain death is something they would wish to stress. The most we can say for certain, I think, is that brain death ceases one dimension of consciousness; that of this world. It need not be the severing of self-conciousness, a God-consciousness, and that of His realm. In gaining another body (either permanent or temporary), that God could give, we still might be able to access this present world.

The existence of the soul is something that would naturally elude discovery; it is immaterial and so then how could we rely on our physical senses to detect it ? The spiritual realm exists alongside the material, but should be thought of as essentially being beyond it.


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rats. Five in the morning, already.


*will have to be continued... too tired...*
(nobody is reading this thread anyway !...& why should they, I guess)

[Dienekes]

Just add my own bit of infromation here

The original Holy Bible created by Constantine and his group of priests consisted of the Revelations of Paul. In which Jesus describes Hell, Apocalypse, and tells how Hell is only a way to pirge away sins before the soul is fit for heaven. This book was taken away during the middle ages when the Catholic fiath replaced it with another book Revelations which is extremely similar but without the freeing of sins. This can be directly related with the Churchs growing corruption and gaining wealth through indulgences. Coming up with the Purgatory symbol to express the time taken to be free of sins for believers and Hell as an eternity for unbelievers.

But to another point the idea of a forgiving God. The answer is God is everything. He is the most merciful being in existence, however that is not all, he is the kindest, wisest, most just, and holy. It is true that while in eternity in Hell is not forgiving, however it is just. God is the pinnacle and the perfect balance of all of these traits.

Just to add to Barbarossa in the Revelations of Paul Hell is described as eternally painful in a sense never before imagined by man. This sort of adds to the not like real humans, and Heaven as happiness and delight in its purest form unmarred by flesh and thought. These things are that of the soul makes of it and believes not that of the physical body.

[hereoisreal]

To all:

My two posts above have been totally ignored as far as posted coments
but I'll try one more time:

IMO,there are 3 places: heaven, hell, and home. (Read the story of the prodigal son Lk. 15:11)

It is a story about a man who left home, went two places, heaven then
hell, then jerked himself up by the boot straps and came back home.

I'm sure you've never heard the story described in such a way, but
what can I say?

Heaven is where there's all play and no work.
Hell is where there is all work and no pay.
Home is where there's work, play, love, hate, joy, sadness, sowing,
reaping, parents, children, and every thing between.

I think, if you looked at men through God's eyes, you would see men
as trees walking. They're lookin' for a better place. They never
put down roots. Did you ever see a healthy tree walking?

Home is where the heart is. Home is where your roots are.

Luk 15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:


Luk 15:12 And the younger of them said to [his] father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth [to me]. And he divided unto them [his] living.


Luk 15:13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.


Luk 15:14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.


Luk 15:15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.


Luk 15:16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.


Luk 15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!


Luk 15:18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,


Luk 15:19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.


Luk 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.


Luk 15:21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.


Luk 15:22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put [it] on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on [his] feet:


Luk 15:23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill [it]; and let us eat, and be merry:


Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.


Luk 15:25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.


Luk 15:26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.


Luk 15:27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.


Luk 15:28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.


Luk 15:29 And he answering said to [his] father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:


Luk 15:30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.


Luk 15:31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.


Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Zero