OUR FEATURED MEMBER ARTICLE: The Theology of Hell by Just Joan

[gharfish]

To all:

My two posts above have been totally ignored as far as posted coments
but I'll try one more time:

IMO,there are 3 places: heaven, hell, and home. (Read the story of the prodigal son Lk. 15:11)

It is a story about a man who left home, went two places, heaven then
hell, then jerked himself up by the boot straps and came back home.

I'm sure you've never heard the story described in such a way, but
what can I say?...

Well, I agree with you that the prodigal son "went through hell," as the saying goes, having left his loving father behind, selfishly, striking-out to now do things his way. It didn't work out in the least ! He was "blessed by guilt;" he had the courage to suffer the legitimate shame of admitting to himself that from the start he had made a moral mistake ...to forsake what godly wisdom he'd had.

The beauty of Jesus' illustration--the parable--is though the son had been so unwise, wayward in all his ways; immediately upon his return, in contriteness, he was smothered with love by his Dad. He wasn't even thinking, at all, of the wrong done to him. He only cared that the son was...here ! ...with him...had come back home that he might be blessed again.

He was extremely joyfull that his son was back with him, in body and in heart. His love never did wane (nor, I bet, did he lose hope or confidence in his boy), but he did give him the freedom to go away, even knowing that he was risking his beloved's self-destruction; his child not really endangered by the wasting of monies, but the beginnings of a squandering of who he was as a person. He risked losing his son to a ruinous life, but it had to be--if to be fair. It was with a heavy heart that he respected his son's right to leave his care, to give opportunity to himself to seek the pleasing of self above all else.



That's how I see it, anyway.

It's wonderful to consider what Jesus was saying about us and the Heavenly Father in this parable (Luke 15: vs. 11-32). It's a thrilling assurance that God loves us unconditionally, and no matter what we have done that is wrong; to our detriment and that of others, He is always intently watching far down the road in hopes that we will want to--will--come back into His outstretched arms. He'll meet us as we come up the path !

The way back home is, of course, through The Son, Jesus. Jesus is one and the same as the Father, God. And he is a loving, merciful, all-forgiving Dad to us; yes, the perfect care-giver, willing to spare Himself nothing (as we see in the sacrifice on the cross) to open wide the door to receive us. To dine merrily with us, his once-upon-a-time lost children. ...if only we will it. That is what's required. He's done the work--the rest; everything, essentially. It's all been accomplished now that every last sin can be justly forgiven--remembered no more. Now he stands at the door, awaiting us.



"Here, I'm standing at the door, knocking. If someone hears and gives heed to my voice and opens the door, I will come into him and will dine with him, and he with me." (Rev. 3: v. 20)



It's a love--truly boundless grace--wonderful, beyond all we could ever wish to find. God is earnestly seeking us ! There is a great hope and meaning to our lives. We are not all alone down here. Our Maker is truly, actually right there at the door of our hearts, desiring our invitation. If we will, the very first sight will be of a glorious face beaming with love and compassion.



Thank you, hereoisrael, for reminding me of this. I feel encouraged as I recount to myself this particular one of Jesus' love stories towards us. You are right on the very center of the gospel (good news !), with your post.

V.

[hereoisreal]

Vance, thanks for your reply.
We can all relate to this story because it is about family.
We, most of us, can put our feet in both the father's and son's shoes.
Been there, done that.
Fathers ( and mothers ) want to protect children from what is beyound the home.
We want our children to be wise but wisdom can not be tought. It is learned
and it comes from God.

David said to his son Soloman who was instructing his son below:

Pro 4:5 Get wisdom, get understanding: forget [it] not; neither decline from the words of my mouth.
Pro 4:6 Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: love her, and she shall keep thee.

Pro 4:7 Wisdom [is] the principal thing; [therefore] get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

Sooner or later, children want what the parents have... their own world (with children).
Family is what it's all about.

There is nothing "wrong" with leaving home. We just hope that when they do, they don't forget their roots and the sacrifices that brought them to that moment.
If you look at men through God's eyes, you might see them as "trees walking".
After they wander through life and die, many proclaim, " He's gone to a better place."

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.
( She has deep roots.)


Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female,

Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
.
Eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is what makes one wise.
Wisdom only comes from God.
The prodigal son came home a wise man.


The following is part of story # 283 on my web site:


THE STORY OF THE THREE BARES

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

There are three heavenly bodies that play the greatest role in our lives. The sun, earth and moon. One is too big; one is too little; the other is just right. One is too hot; one is too cold; the other is just right.

I was thinking about that one day as I picked up a Reader’s Digest. I clumsily opened the book near the middle and my eyes fell on some lines of humor, which I began to read. A man vacationing, I believe in a national park, went to the public bath to shower. When he tried unsuccessfully to adjust the water temperature, he shouted in disgust, “This water is too cold.” Another grown-up voice hollered, “This water is too hot.” Then, from a third stall, a small voice proclaimed, “This water is just right.”

Zero

[God_is_personal]

...Hi, ladies Trout XIII and Just Joan---"just", Joan, can mean "only" or "merely", OR it can mean "fair" because you are caring and considerate.
...like this, there are words and things in the Bible that can have different meanings. My intentions can have a lot to do with how I CHOOSE to interpret...this according to my personality.
...I think free will can be overrated...considering Romans 9:21 in context.
...But it is good to be sensitive in relating with other people. Love people. It's not that I think very highly of their free wills, but God wants me to be considerate, not forcing and trying to just USE people (1 Peter 5:3, Ephesians 5:21); so I need to not take for granted and expect things without being appreciative...even if I am paying and so-and-so promised. STILL, be thankful.
...It says to be thankful with God, who has promised.
...Free will, to certain people, can mean a person makes one's own choices, and therefore is accountable for the choices that person makes, and therefore its OK to demand things of the person, and crunch down on and pressure the person for what you suppose is right.
...But God wants us to be willing and cheerful to do and give what is good. So, I understand that God does not want us to do things out of guilt pressure, fear, etc. . . . OR because you charm or bribe the person. And the meaning of this, I would say, is God wants us to do only what He is satisfying us to do in His love...in sweet sensitive sharing with Him.
...So...if I really love people, I want them to do things for me ONLY if God's love is nicely satisfying them to do something for me. I welcome people to make their own choice about if they want to do something for me; I encourage them to be satisfied, not feeling coerced - - - doing this with the intention that they relate with God and be satisfied by Him to do what He has them do for me. I don't want them just to please me, but be with God, getting satisfied to do what He wants...so they are sharing with Him. That's what I think free will really means, how God wants people to be free in His love so they can do only what He is personally satisfying them to do.
...Or they're not free...but in slavery...like Romans 6:17 appears to me to indicate. Yes, they are making choices with their wills. But in sin they are free from God so they can make choices without how God's love would restrain and guide them. So they are free from God, in sin. So, yes, they DO have free wills...in slavery.
...But this is about hell, in this forum. What about Romans 9:21? There are vessels for honor and for dishonor...maybe like drinking cups which hold and share living and pure and refreshing water, and we have the sewer buckets where you put worry and hate and self-righteous judging and perverted stuff, etc. . . . filth that goes to the flaming sewer which burns with fire and brimstone, I understand. After all, God is the God of order. So, I can see He has things in order, with His water system, and the sewer system for transporting the filth of Satan's spirit of evil to where it is going, in sewer buckets (Ephesians 2:2).
...So when that nasty reacting, overbearing criticizing, and other messing stuff gets going in me, I don't need to just control it and hold it in, but FLUSH it so it can go where it is going, WITHOUT ME. And paranoia and worry and depression, too, need to GO...without me. God can make this work very nicely...according to my own experience, trusting Him to do this.
...So I need to make sure I have in me ONLY the things and reacting and emotions of God's sweet gentle kind sensitive considerate love. Yes, I'm improvable (James 5:16).
...As for the fire? How about Hebrews 12:29? And you don't feel burnt unless your nature is selfish...like how food on a fire will cook and get better, while trash is what will burn. But that would be annihilation. Oh-oh. But the burnt material is in another state after burning...and THAT would not be organized.
...I can see that hell will have order, and that for eternity, using volunteer buckets who have INSISTED on carrying around their selfish stuff, when they could be flushing it and getting filled by God's living and loving waters instead.
...Nice to meet you, ladies.
...Hereoisrael, I especially benefit from that thing you gave about hell and heaven, versus HOME...having roots, instead of being a walking tree.
...Home with roots, I'd say, can be NOW. We can be rooted with God Himself in His very own Heaven love, NOW (Romans 5:5)...by faith, meaning being joined spiritually to God Himself...1 Corinthians 6:17...so we are personally intimate and sharing with Him. Thank you.
...And hi to you others. I read through your writings, and have addressed various things without naming you specifically.

[hereoisreal]

Hi Bill,
It's been 15 days since I posted here so I was beginning to think
there was no interest in what I said.
Most of what I say gets a most negitive response from both believers
and all others as well. Some atheism and christian sites have banned me.

I said to my housekeeper one day, " Heaven is hell without law and order.

When hell meets the law, the • Edited by a Moderator • will hit the fan." (Please pardon the

language but that's exactly what I said. It's part of the story.)

The next morning I opened my newspaper to the front page. The top

headline read, "Helmet Law Inforcement Begins".

Blessings

Zero

Moderated By: Trout

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***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publically complain or whine, please take it to the Psychotherapy Room unless told otherwise.

[God_is_personal]

Hi, Hereoisreal...
...Thank you for getting back to me. I miss hearing from the others.
...And I see that Mrs. Trout is perhaps a good homemaker...who keeps an eye on things here. Good.
...Now, you just shared, "Heaven is hell without law and order."
...And when I just read this, I took it to mean that you are saying that heaven IS hell...hell without law and order. OR you meant, I THOUGHT, it is hell BUT without law and order. And you can see I had a problem with what I supposed you meant.
...What NOW I can understand is you really mean that if there is not law and order, then what is considered to be heaven is going to be hell, because of not having law and order. And this can mean that my little heaven on earth, that I may contrive for myself, can become a living hell...because of my selfishness.
...Hmmm...getting this together with Just Joan's presentation...so we CAN make hell for ourselves, in THIS life. We can be miserable, with Satan in his awful and dominating and wasting spirit..."the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." (in Ephesians 2:2...I use New King James, too) That horrible spirit is the worst part of hell, I COULD consider; and people have this NOW, even while they deny there is hell. Already, they have the suffering and agony and torment...NOW, because of living in selfish stuff.
...So, going to the place hell is just taking the same thing further, of what ones are already in while being in denial. So, I need to pray for us....that we get with God, however we each need to. Thank you, Hereoisreal; I hope I understood you right.
...And hi, Mrs. Trout, since you are checking on us...nice to see you. Thank you.

[hereoisreal]

Bill, life has an "if" in the middle:


Eze 33:11 Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but

that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house

of Israel?
Eze 33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the

righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall

not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for

his [righteousness] in the day that he sinneth.
Eze 33:13 When I shall say to the righteous, [that] he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness,

and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath

committed, he shall die for it.
Eze 33:14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which

is lawful and right;
Eze 33:15 [If] the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life,

without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 33:16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is

lawful and right; he shall surely live.
Eze 33:17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is

not equal.
Eze 33:18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die

thereby.
Eze 33:19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live

thereby.
Eze 33:20 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after

his ways.

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is

righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work

shall be.



The following is story # 335 on my web page:

SUPERDUPER POOPER SCOOPER

One of God’s laws which he said was to be kept forever, and ever, and ever, requires every soldier in God’s

army to carry a foxhole-type shovel, permanently attached to the
other end of their spears. This is not for digging foxholes. It is to be used each and every time you do your

‘business’ in the camp. The point emphasized is, that should someone
fail to cover it up, the Angel of the Lord just might step in it when he is walking about the area at night. The

consequence of this, should it happen, is not described, but I for one, would not want to put it to the test.

Deu 23:13 And thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad,

thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee:
Deu 23:14 For the LORD thy God walketh in the midst of thy camp, to deliver thee, and to give up thine

enemies before thee; therefore shall thy camp be holy: that he see no unclean thing in thee, and turn away from

thee

IMO, you make a mess, clean it up. If you can't clean it up, cover it up


Ps:
Thursday, November 18, 2004, I opened my paper to find an article written by Billy Cox in
the Florida Today newspaper. He did a feature about me several years ago.

A woman, named Julie Arnold, had a pet clean up service called, "SUPERDUPER POOPER SCUPPER".
I had the article on my scanner a few days later as I was working with a family
member at my computer.
I glanced at my scanner and thought,
"I'll tell her about this item in the paper."
Then I changed my mind and kept on working at my desk as she left the room.
A few minutes later, Joan, my wife, stuck her head in the door and exclaimed,
"Paula just stepped in some dog poop."

Zero

[God_is_personal]

Hereoisreal...neat stuff...how it says "if" we stop the wrong stuff, our sins will not be remembered, will not be mentioned.

Neat, how "if" is in the middle of "life". Now, I would consider that life is the life we have in God's love. Or else, you would need a word meaning miserable, with "because" in the middle of it. If I am in selfish stuff, I am degraded so I can be ransacked and manipulated by dominating and dictatorial passions...because I'm in the selfish stuff. There's a built-in punishment of not being obedient to God. Consider Romans 1:18-32, i.eeeee., how those people became wasted and ruined by controlling passions because of their refusal of God. So, this is hell, right now, I can see...a foretaste of what will be multiplied if one does not change to God.

(Sparko has been diligently telling me to space my format; it took TWO times of him telling me before I got what he meant. THANK you, Sparko.)

It says let the evil man forsake his evil ways. So, yes, God does actually expect, I would say, ANY sort of evil person to change. People CAN change. Sparko kept after me, on the other web page, for a while before I got what he was trying to tell me....in Nontrinitarian's thing about who are you going to believe. I didn't get what he was meaning by forgiveness, either, but I think at least I now know what he means.

So, we CAN change. It can take time. But there are people who believe psychopaths and pedophile predators and terrorists and snobs etc. can not change. According to your Bible quotes, yes they CAN; and so they ARE accountable. And so, they DO qualify for hell, if they keep on doing evil.

But there is hope; so we can pray for and have hope for any evil awful person. Good to see you again, Hereoisreal; thanks for sharing. You have a wife? Hi.

Yeah...and about that thing about how the LORD could step in it while walking in the camp---yes, God can sense and feel what we have in us and what we're putting out. So, it's good to be sweet. "And walk in love, even as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2...yes NKJV, Just Joan) He can smell us. And how we smell will have a lot to do with "if" He wants us with Him in Heaven.

Therefore, "rather let it be the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (1 Peter 3:4)

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3) But IN me I can get overbearing against people...even though I might ACT nice. I need to be sweet and gentle, more in God's love... so I am ready to be relating like this in Heaven..."submitting to one another in the fear of God." (Ephesians 5:21)

Or else, what's in me is for the flaming sewer.

So, I confess I need to be a more kind and gentle person...more caring, less critical. And it says, "Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much." (James 5:16) So, you can pray that I get "healed" to do better.

We are in Jesus' priesthood---with Him in His forgiving and confession and healing prayer. And ANYONE can join us. See the signature verse.

[Jeannot]

I think it's strange that people imagine the physical act of splashing about in a lake of fire when they think of hell. When imagining an afterlife-- whether heaven or hell, it seems absurd to think of our conciousness carrying on in a form that in anyway resembles our living conciousness. Our brain defines our personality and our perception of pain, happiness, etc. For many people such as Alzheimer's patients, or people who suffer brain damage, their brains and all of the things that go along with it (personality, memory) don't even survive to the end of their lives. Why would we imagine that the whole package can somehow survive death-- it's crazy! Our souls certainly don't contain our memories, emotions, pain reception, etc that our living bodies are equipped with to survive on earth. That is obvious in people who lose all of those things after suffering some alteration to their brain chemistry or structure.

a quick example-- after severe accidents, sometimes a side effect of brain trauma is that the suppression mechanism for aggression in the brain gets damages, turning the victim into a ticking time bomb of aggression-- sometimes they can't even function in society. Does that mean that their soul was changed too? of course not-- even though their condition might drive them to "sinful" acts. But then one might say "well God would understand-- he would be accepted as he was before the accident" but what about conditions like fetal alcohol syndrome? people who were doomed before they were born-- they often grow up to be dysfunctional people who sometimes might not fit very well into your average christian community. Again you might say "God would understand, he sees all" ..well if he is understanding, then won't he understand all of our short comings because so much of what we are is a product of our environment and our biology?

Your post raises the whole question of free will. But how much of it can there be if just about everyone in the ME, etc, is Muslim, and the majority of Americans are Christians? I doubt that everyone in the ME compared religions and chose Islam as the best. What you are seems to be 95% how you were brought up. So where does that leave free will?

[THUMPER]

The world has Many different religions and cultures. Religion, like culture serves a purpose. Be the purpose supportive by giving hope or simply to be used as a guidline of rules for people to follow. The danger therein lay with people who take religion as literal interpretation.

How many times has a person reported to the world they speak for God? The answer is, as many times as there have been religions or street corners to stand on. One concept standing clearly for all to see in most religions is that you must agree with my religion or face the torments of some type of hell. It's "a be with us or else" philosphy. Christianity teaches that all must beleive in XYZ or face torment yada-yada; the gapping hole is that the backwoods aboriginie who is clueless about religions is, by religious doctrine, in deep excrement without that "choice" religions speak of. It's a no-go Houston, no launch today.

It's unfortunant people have taken religion too far. I'd think with written religions as young as they are ( 4,000 to 2,000 yrs old) there would be a profound wake up call when we all should realize that mankind has a biological history dating, at minimum, back 75,000 years to the period after Neandrathal. The physical evidence far outweighs the text of recorded history of religious notations. Isen't it true, that even today we see religions that go far and beyond what a "good Christian" would do to another? And isen't it true that many-many religions teach that "they are the one truth". This might be a clue that there isen't a "truth" and we still seek it? Logic prevails. Dogma .

My views are as valid as any religions, I think, I write, therefore, I am :)

Regarding God, creation and consciousness: We exsist, because we are "aware". We are conscious and alive even as the body dies the consciousness goes forward into a reality we have created. Absent any religion to dictate who we are and how we should "act" we are truly Free within our choices, absent of course any religions. We have the inate ability to elect for ourselves what destinations we wish to arrive to. This theory assasinates religions as it leaves out "God" purhaps in the views of many. God being the one we lean on, depend on for truth and guidence per the religious doctrines of many. God, who or what, if anything might God be, why must God be? I sense mankind has a limited mindset within religious doctrine. Religions tend to place God as a male figure, strong, clean and almighty. Sound familiar? Maybe like an NFL quarterback? We creat the image to match the view that best supports Our needs; we lean on religion as a crutch as some are confined to such thoughts by influneces, be it cultural-family or just basic brianwashing.

What might Chrisianity say about another humanoid-species 157,000 light years from Earth; oh, "God created the Heavens and the Earth" so therefore they too must be Catholic...Not sarcastic, strong points tend to sting a little. What happens to that entire species per the Catholic doctrine? Or purhaps Catholosism teaches we are alone in the infanite Universe?

Thinking far outside the bun one might discover some truth beyond Infant Earthly religions. Christians-Muslims and others scoff at backwoods tribes with their funny cultures; they paint themselves worship the sun God or Coke-can dropped by an aircraft, oh, they worship the God of Cesna also, the low winged version of course, blashemy...anyway, Truth is perceptive...isen't it true, that tribes from New Guinei actually built a straw replica of a low flying aircraft as a God a few decades ago? Again, isen't truth perceptive? They were taught, by vision ( they saw the plane) or by word that that aircraft was improtant in a serious way. These guys waited for the return of that aircraft...um, damn...now this is fairly familiar ground here...

Mankind is master of their own destination, we creat, we are the creators of our relaity. God, is evident as order in the Universe is evident. I sense we are not remotely close to understanding what "God is" as religions have simply made a cultural based attempt to do just that, with disasterous results I might add. God may be something huge, or as simple as a thought, God may also be someone like us who has been around longer than we...

The nature of reality yet escapes man.

[Scrip]

I'm not in accord with the view that eternal punishment is more in accord with what the Bible says about God: in effect, if we think about the punishment of Cannanites, Sodom, etc. we notice that God don't put people in an "eternal suffering" but to death.

Bible anthropology, as conceded by more and more scholars, is about a being that's ONE and one only (if one consider any bible passage where the words Nephesh and Psychè occour this must be evident)

This is a general note/reply. Anything less than the traditional teaching on Hell proportionately diminishes the importance of Christ's sacrifice. The difference is being saved from a head-on collision and a fender-bender.
Scrip

[gharfish]

Your post raises the whole question of free will. But how much of it can there be if just about everyone in the ME, etc, is Muslim, and the majority of Americans are Christians? I doubt that everyone in the ME compared religions and chose Islam as the best. What you are seems to be 95% how you were brought up. So where does that leave free will?

(from three posts above)

Do you know what the Qur'an plainly teaches ("just about every Middle Easterner") about Jesus, that necessitates he/she rejecting Jesus' gospel (and therefore him) if freely choosing to believe in the message of Muhammad ?

Do you know that it is not silent with the exclusive/absolute truth claims made by Jesus ? ...and it features Jesus rather prominently. Certainly enough so that to believe what the Qur'an says about him means that a person does not believe what the four NT gospels say.

To 'choose Islam as the best' is a calcualted decision to reject Christianity because Islam's writings literally deny in black-and-white the deity of Jesus. To give Jesus status as God's Son, fully divine, is the unforgivable sin of "shirk" at the dark center of what is thought to be Christianity's gross tri-theism instead of THE foundational truth of real monotheism.

*If the scriptures one believes in openly refutes the scriptures of the other's, then the reader need not to have had put in any work in comparing the two.*

(But, shouldn't one ought to put themselves out a bit in making such a decision anyway ? After all, it is supposed to be pretty important--kind of a big one, right ?)

The Qur'an (and the Hadith, both) are irreconcilably in conflict with the central, essential, teachings of Jesus regarding what saves and what condemns a man...

To be a trusting Muslim is a EYES-WIDE-OPEN not trusting of all that is essential in Christianity's--Jesus'--teachings about his clearly defined mission here on earth. Muhammad had another... a completely different one, and he asked others to put their trust in another God. Allah is not the God of Judaism...Christianity. Nope.

All true Muslims, no matter where they grew up or their ethnic identity, know what they are doing re. Jesus when they say "yes" to Muhammad's revelations, because the prophet of the Qur'an is quite clear on what he/it says about Jesus.

If the Muslim claims he didn't know what he was doing specifically "with Jesus" when he became (one), and all the years afterward, then it is his own fault for being personally ignorant of those scriptures he held to (over another) --the very man, too, at the heart of his chosen religion.

An unexamined faith is one's anyway, by default.

"ME" people are no more required to truly practice the religion of their heritage than Westerners are of their's. Note I said practice !

Nominal, cultural-only Islamists and Christians of the same are the norm, for the most part. And just plain not being religious is acceptable everywhere--but, if one fears what others will think, going through the motions is not burdensome. It can serve to further one socially...and may even ease the conscience as a bonus.

[gharfish]

This is a general note/reply. Anything less than the traditional teaching on Hell proportionately diminishes the importance of Christ's sacrifice. The difference is being saved from a head-on collision and a fender-bender.
Scrip

The traditional model of Gehenna/lake of fire is the "head-on collision," one is saved from, I take it. Is the saving/sparing of a "fender-bender" anything less than a never-to-end torturing of one's soul (body too ?) ...that is fully-conscious of that pain ? Is it anything less than eternal destruction ? ...or the perishing of John 3: 16 (?)

Is Jesus' final word: the lake of fire "which is the second death," and the earlier analagous fiery Valley of Hinnom=gehenna="hell," both meant to describe in some way what the place is like in terms of the quailty of suffering this punishment, or that and that the fire is a metaphor of an eventual destruction...that is (then) everlasting ? ...irreversible ?



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What is the worm that dieth not ? What is the gnashing of teeth ? What is outer darkness ? What is the second death ? What is a resurrection to everlasting contempt and shame ? What is meant by the smoke of torment rising forever ? What is the fire that cannot be quenched ?

Is the eternal fire of hell a description of the nature of the place as far as it's permanence 'in time,' [prepared for the Devil and his angels, who may be contained there forever, "alive"] Or is eternal hellfire unquestionably a revelation that the fires are somehow reflective of the emotional (and physical) pain--that they never end because the soul, and resurrected body, are inherently imperishable ? The fires are eternal/everlasting because what they burn cannot be destroyed, and therefore they keep on burning and burning and burning. Is there really anything like what we know as fire (or rising smoke) in 'hell' ?

Does the Bible teach that man's soul is, since the fall anyway, 'naturally' immortal ? I can't find the scriptural evidence to satisfy that...and if lacking it, the "doctrine of the fire that doesn't consume" loses it's steam.

If the soul is conditionally immortal, then it could be that the fires that once did not consume in the traditional hell, does turn out to be the best metaphor for the destruction ('at some point') of all the lost to God--those who definitely rejected God's grace in the sacrificial giving of His Son, Jesus Christ.

I believe that all those who repent of their unsubjected self-willfulness and, rather, turn to put their trust in God's Son, Jesus, as their resurrected Saviour--go on to follow Him as their Lord, are saved for a life that will never again be lost. They will be given an imperishable body in the resurrection, reunited with a soul that is CERTAINLY immortal too; this is the whole of what Jesus called the condition of eternal living: in how one exists with Him forever in the Kingdom of Heaven. Of course everlasting/eternal life is much, much, more than the existing of it !!

But for those who to the end reject salvation through Jesus Christ, they do not inherit life eternal but are condemned to eternal death. Apart from the only One who alone possesses eternalness, the lost are lost to total ruination. The separation of them from God, the source of eternal life; it is that which brings about their second death. It is likely not instantaneous (for anyone), IMO, but it is the inevitable result for they were not imparted the Life who Jesus alone has been given the right to take for Himself, and the authority and power to impart to all who will trust in Him.

The lost are not given any kind of an eternal life of their own. The saved are ! The saved are saved from the perishing that would otherwise be their fate (as well) for dying still in their sins, having likewise refused to believe in the only Son of God. They who did not believe in His resurrection=they will not share in it.

They are raised to stand before the Lord Jesus at the white throne judgement, and for rejecting God's Son they are cast into the lake of fire. There is the real place that the Valley of Hinnom/Gehenna pointed to. There the lost are immediately subjected to the element(s) that will destroy--consume them--as was everything that went into that terrible place outside the city walls of old Jerusalem..

[Scrip]

Mark 9


43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Here we have three times where Christ assures us of the permanent
nature of both the "worm" and the fire. Since "the Scripture cannot be broken" we cannot break this stone of truth by bashing it against another Scripture or any human reasoning either.

Instead, this Scripture must be placed in harmony with all others, especially those directed to the same subject. The fires that burned outside of Jerusalem in the garbage dumps have long since been extinguished. Actual worms do not live long in flame. The description of Gahanna is used by Jesus as an earthly object to teach eternal truth, even as He taught other aspects of God's Word.

Hell is taught in this passage in all it's horror by Jesus as a place to be avoided at all costs, even to the point of self-mutilation. A paraphrase rendering would be something like this; Do not let anything, even something as precious to you as your eye or hand keep you from right now entering into eternal life by trusting in Me. You must be born again or suffer the horrible eternal fate of those who die in their sin, even Hell forever and ever.

Thus the Savior used the truth about Hell as an incentive to go to Heaven even if for nothing else but to avoid Hell. How unlike today, where evangelism often degenerates into promises alone with no mention of Hell! And many of those promises are questionable perhaps and of an earthly nature.

What is a "worm" was asked; Psalm 22 answers. A worm is the lowest form of humanity as fully expressed in the rejection of the gracious offer of God to save. The good news is that Christ identified on the cross with the lowest sinner; "I am a worm and no man". Take courage all sinful men, Christ has paid for even your despicable sins if you will but believe now and enter into life!


SCrip

[THUMPER]

I think it's strange that people imagine the physical act of splashing about in a lake of fire when they think of hell. When imagining an afterlife-- whether heaven or hell, it seems absurd to think of our conciousness carrying on in a form that in anyway resembles our living conciousness. Our brain defines our personality and our perception of pain, happiness, etc. For many people such as Alzheimer's patients, or people who suffer brain damage, their brains and all of the things that go along with it (personality, memory) don't even survive to the end of their lives. Why would we imagine that the whole package can somehow survive death-- it's crazy! Our souls certainly don't contain our memories, emotions, pain reception, etc that our living bodies are equipped with to survive on earth. That is obvious in people who lose all of those things after suffering some alteration to their brain chemistry or structure.

a quick example-- after severe accidents, sometimes a side effect of brain trauma is that the suppression mechanism for aggression in the brain gets damages, turning the victim into a ticking time bomb of aggression-- sometimes they can't even function in society. Does that mean that their soul was changed too? of course not-- even though their condition might drive them to "sinful" acts. But then one might say "well God would understand-- he would be accepted as he was before the accident" but what about conditions like fetal alcohol syndrome? people who were doomed before they were born-- they often grow up to be dysfunctional people who sometimes might not fit very well into your average christian community. Again you might say "God would understand, he sees all" ..well if he is understanding, then won't he understand all of our short comings because so much of what we are is a product of our environment and our biology?

Too many people are caught up in One of hundreds of "religions". Too many take "religion" verbatum, by the book. This is highly restrictive in beliefs. One can quote the Bible day after day and interpret day after day what ever it is you want. It doesen't change the fact that literally hundreds of other religions are doing the same thing, day after day. So, who's right, who's wrong? All of you are. Nobody has it right. Whom can say "I know God"' I thinik maybe we all know a little about God...just a little.

[THUMPER]

Too many people are caught up in One of hundreds of "religions". Too many take "religion" verbatum, by the book. This is highly restrictive in beliefs. One can quote the Bible day after day and interpret day after day what ever it is you want. It doesen't change the fact that literally hundreds of other religions are doing the same thing, day after day. So, who's right, who's wrong? All of you are. Nobody has it right. Whom can say "I know God"' I thinik maybe we all know a little about God...just a little.

It was stated that we are not our Souls are not ourselves and that we cannot "survive death" as our brians will not contain "us" our memories ECT. Wow. I coulden't disagree more. The writer does predicate everything on the physical body, a dead brain can't do much.
Imagine if you would, that consciousness does not thrive in the physical form, but simply resides in it for a time.
Science has not pin pointed where "consciousness resides"; science has only found the brian to be a receptical, a physical machine directing the consciousness into the physical body to allow it to manipulate the body; it works.
Speaking to people whom have survived near death experiences one can gather they have in fact left their body and remaned "themselves". Too many people have attested to this fact which does support that consciousness does and can reside absent the body.