I'm reading Babylonian Myths

[Meh_Gerbil]

I got a 10 volumn set on Mythology from Easten Press - I've had the set for over 2 years and I'm just getting down to reading some of it. I picked up the "Babylonian/Assyrian" myth book and it is a fun read so far.

In addition to the "Flood Epic of Gilgimesh" (sp) there is also another flood account that reads almost like the Genesis account (dates as far back as 2000 BC). Also, one ruler (Sargon) was found in a basket just like Moses (or so the legend says). The parallels between the OT and the Babylonian are a scream.

[technomage]

I got a 10 volumn set on Mythology from Easten Press - I've had the set for over 2 years and I'm just getting down to reading some of it. I picked up the "Babylonian/Assyrian" myth book and it is a fun read so far.

Ooh! If that's the set I think it is, I'm so jealous: I can't find it locally.

[The Curtmudgeon]

I got a 10 volumn set on Mythology from Easten Press - I've had the set for over 2 years and I'm just getting down to reading some of it. I picked up the "Babylonian/Assyrian" myth book and it is a fun read so far.

In addition to the "Flood Epic of Gilgimesh" (sp) there is also another flood account that reads almost like the Genesis account (dates as far back as 2000 BC). Also, one ruler (Sargon) was found in a basket just like Moses (or so the legend says). The parallels between the OT and the Babylonian are a scream.

Before you get too caught up in the "parallels", I would strongly suggest you check out this article on The Christian Think-Tank, and its sub-articles (links included in the top article). It's very thorough and impressive; I suggest you bring a sack lunch (or two) -- but it's very worthwhile. I had done some heavy reading in the subject before, but Glenn Miller had a lot to show me.

Don't take this as a put-down of reading the ANE mythologies, or even of enjoying them. I've always enjoyed my reading/studying of mythologies, mostly Graeco-Roman and Norse, but a lot of spot-reading in many others including (as mentioned) the ANE. But the idea that there are a lot of parallels is a position that really doesn't bear close scrutiny.

The (just hoping to broaden your enjoyment by broadening your understanding) Curtmudgeon

[Meh_Gerbil]

Ooh! If that's the set I think it is, I'm so jealous: I can't find it locally.

I order them directly from Easton Press (www.eastonpress.com)

[Meh_Gerbil]

Before you get too caught up in the "parallels", I would strongly suggest you check out this article on The Christian Think-Tank, and its sub-articles (links included in the top article). It's very thorough and impressive; I suggest you bring a sack lunch (or two) -- but it's very worthwhile. I had done some heavy reading in the subject before, but Glenn Miller had a lot to show me.

Don't take this as a put-down of reading the ANE mythologies, or even of enjoying them. I've always enjoyed my reading/studying of mythologies, mostly Graeco-Roman and Norse, but a lot of spot-reading in many others including (as mentioned) the ANE. But the idea that there are a lot of parallels is a position that really doesn't bear close scrutiny.

The (just hoping to broaden your enjoyment by broadening your understanding) Curtmudgeon

I believe that if a world wide flood occured that several cultures would speak of it - albeit it corrupted forms. I find that similar stories existing is actually a boost to my faith - I don't believe the stories are precursors.

[shunyadragon]

Before you get too caught up in the "parallels", I would strongly suggest you check out this article on The Christian Think-Tank, and its sub-articles (links included in the top article). It's very thorough and impressive; I suggest you bring a sack lunch (or two) -- but it's very worthwhile. I had done some heavy reading in the subject before, but Glenn Miller had a lot to show me.

Don't take this as a put-down of reading the ANE mythologies, or even of enjoying them. I've always enjoyed my reading/studying of mythologies, mostly Graeco-Roman and Norse, but a lot of spot-reading in many others including (as mentioned) the ANE. But the idea that there are a lot of parallels is a position that really doesn't bear close scrutiny.

The (just hoping to broaden your enjoyment by broadening your understanding) Curtmudgeon

I reviewed the cited article and I do not find it very through and impressive. It basically failed to even cite many of the more modern scholars that advocate the belief that the OT Genesis legends are a synthesis of borrrowed and traditional oral legends. The total lack of any significant OT Biblical texts older than the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the abundent finds of Babylonian texts of similar legends is something that was not well addressed in the article. The article stressed the dissimilarities as demonstrating the uniqueness of the Biblical version, which is well accepted by modern scholars who believe the stories are borrowed, and then combined with traditional Hebrew oral legends.

[shunyadragon]

I believe that if a world wide flood occured that several cultures would speak of it - albeit it corrupted forms. I find that similar stories existing is actually a boost to my faith - I don't believe the stories are precursors.

Could you cite any archeological evidence that would support that the Biblical stories are not a synthesis of Hebrew and Babylonian oral legends and myths.

[Meh_Gerbil]

Could you cite any archeological evidence that would support that the Biblical stories are not a synthesis of Hebrew and Babylonian oral legends and myths.

The oldest recorded version of many of these stories appear to be written by Babylonians.

So?

If an actual event of the proportion of a world wide flood (or huge regional flood) occurred I would expect records of that event to turn up in several cultures around the world. Because of this, the story is common to all mankind and I find that thrilling.

What I see in all these legends (even the Messianic ones) is that the world knew what to expect when the Messiah came -- it was common knowledge and G_D chose to work in a way that people would recognize. Again, I find that extremely exciting. (The promise of a coming Messiah in the garden would filter out to all ancient cultures that arose from Adam and Eve)

I think what I would find distressing is if we could go back to the most ancient of literature and find absolutely no concept of sacrifice or a world wide flood, or a great dragon struggling against the higher gods or a messiah figure. No, the OT and the NT are woven into the very fabric of human culture because they are true - and well understood by the oldest of cultures.

The struggle between the Dragon and the Most High is something everyone gets - even the Babylonians - it is only modern man that has educated himself in to ignorance.

[shunyadragon]

The oldest recorded version of many of these stories appear to be written by Babylonians.

So?

If an actual event of the proportion of a world wide flood (or huge regional flood) occurred I would expect records of that event to turn up in several cultures around the world. Because of this, the story is common to all mankind and I find that thrilling.

What I see in all these legends (even the Messianic ones) is that the world knew what to expect when the Messiah came -- it was common knowledge and G_D chose to work in a way that people would recognize. Again, I find that extremely exciting. (The promise of a coming Messiah in the garden would filter out to all ancient cultures that arose from Adam and Eve)

I think what I would find distressing is if we could go back to the most ancient of literature and find absolutely no concept of sacrifice or a world wide flood, or a great dragon struggling against the higher gods or a messiah figure. No, the OT and the NT are woven into the very fabric of human culture because they are true - and well understood by the oldest of cultures.

The struggle between the Dragon and the Most High is something everyone gets - even the Babylonians - it is only modern man that has educated himself in to ignorance.

First, the legend of the flood is not common to all ancient cultures. For example Some regions of ancient Chinese and Mongolian legends and myths do not include a world flood, is that distressing? In the central Chinese and Mongolian legends the floods are specifically related to the floods of the great rivers and do not cover the mountains. For example, in the Chinese legend (Gong gong legend) the people live in the mountains when the valleys flood. In the Mongolian/Chinese legend the story (Hailibu),is specific to one location and the waters come from the mountains after a great rain and fill the valley killing the people.

The dragon of Chinese mythology is not seen struggling against the higher Gods.

The messiah figure is more common and universal, but this figure is always represented as a person who lived and taught within that culture and will return.

[Meh_Gerbil]

First, the legend of the flood is not common to all ancient cultures. For example Some regions of ancient Chinese and Mongolian legends and myths do not include a world flood, is that distressing? In the central Chinese and Mongolian legends the floods are specifically related to the floods of the great rivers and do not cover the mountains. For example, in the Chinese legend (Gong gong legend) the people live in the mountains when the valleys flood. In the Mongolian/Chinese legend the story (Hailibu),is specific to one location and the waters come from the mountains after a great rain and fill the valley killing the people.

The dragon of Chinese mythology is not seen struggling against the higher Gods.

The messiah figure is more common and universal, but this figure is always represented as a person who lived and taught within that culture and will return.

I wouldn't expect any particular historical event to make it through every culture - would you?

What I find fascinating about all of this is that Abraham was called out about the time the stories began to get corrupted beyond recognition. The concept of one people or one culture being set aside to preserve the record of these events makes a great deal of sense. (And it worked - we've only 'discovered' these Babylonian myths in the last two hundred years - the Jews have known about all this since Abraham).

From a Christian perspective, the Babylonian myths make a great deal of sense - and the timing of the call of Abraham is wonderful and quite rational. I find the whole thing incredibly beautiful.

[shunyadragon]

I wouldn't expect any particular historical event to make it through every culture - would you?

No I do not, but in your previous post you apparently did in a previous post.

I think what I would find distressing is if we could go back to the most ancient of literature and find absolutely no concept of sacrifice or a world wide flood, or a great dragon struggling against the higher gods or a messiah figure. No, the OT and the NT are woven into the very fabric of human culture because they are true - and well understood by the oldest of cultures.

I acknowledge that catastrophic legends, such as floods and tidal waves are known to be carried down through generations through oral traditions. In many cases it is well know that these ancient oral traditions relate to very real local and regional events and not a world flood. A good example is the small Stone Age tribe in India that preserved the oral tradition of the great flood that destroyed all the people in the world except a few, and knew the signs of the coming of this great flood (tidal wave) from these oral legends and fled saving all the people in the tribe.

What I find fascinating about all of this is that Abraham was called out about the time the stories began to get corrupted beyond recognition. The concept of one people or one culture being set aside to preserve the record of these events makes a great deal of sense. (And it worked - we've only 'discovered' these Babylonian myths in the last two hundred years - the Jews have known about all this since Abraham).

There is no known record that the Jews had recorded or did know these stories in a form as they appear in the Bible any earlier that their period of captivity. We have absolutely no archeological evidence of these stories existing in this form as they are in the Bible before the time of the Dead Sea Scrolls. These stories can betraced back indirectly to the Babylonians to about 600 to 800 years, but before this we have zero evidence. On the other hand we have abundent evidence From Egypt to beyond the fertile cresent in clay tablets and stone of earlier similar legends in other cultures, primarily Babylonian.

What archeological evidence could you cite that any of the Biblical texts existed or could be traced back to ~900 BC or earlier?

[XaositectCrayon]

I doubt there was even a worldwide flood... I think it's just natural to assume it was an account of the extreme water level rising around 10k bce. Note alot of people think early man lived and seafood and seafood is known to be brainfood. So the lowland areas next to the ocean have ALWAYS been favored by man. That and they are rather furtile. if there was a pre-stoneage Civ that early they would be close to the shoreline... then the sea level would have been lower. It could have flooded all the lowland areas nearly simultaneously to look like a worldwide flood.

[Meh_Gerbil]

What archeological evidence could you cite that any of the Biblical texts existed or could be traced back to ~900 BC or earlier?

I already said that according to my reading the earlist writings we seem to have (in this catagory) would be Babylonian (2000 BC). I think that is very interesting.

That is covering alot of history.

[shunyadragon]

I already said that according to my reading the earlist writings we seem to have (in this catagory) would be Babylonian (2000 BC). I think that is very interesting.

That is covering alot of history.

Are you agreeing that the origin of the Biblical stories primarily from the known Babylonian sources given the lack of evidence for other sources?

[Meh_Gerbil]

Are you agreeing that the origin of the Biblical stories primarily from the known Babylonian sources given the lack of evidence for other sources?

No.

We each carry a different set of assumptions into how we view what we are finding.

You carry the assumption that the Jewish scriptures are the product of an evolution of thought and mythology. Because of this, it is natural that the oldest texts we've found would be seen as preceeding the more recent texts - it is very rational to conclude that the former gave rise to the later. However, you have absolutely no proof of such an evolution.

I carry the assumption that all mankind came into being like the Bible said and because of this certain historical events would be likely carried by oral tradition for many generations - since they were events common to the ancestory of all men. Moses wrote down (I believe with G_d's aid) what everyone living at the time already knew - but was being corrupted by the surrounding cultures. Like you, I have no way to prove that - we are just operating under different presuppositions.

When I read Babylonian mythology I'm reading corrupted versions of the truth and I find that fascinating. I honestly feel sorry for people who ascend to the height of modern thinking and in the process reduce even the wonderful history of man's struggle with G_d to a set of sterile evolving mythologies - none of which are to be believed.

As for proof of the Bible - I find that all over the place. As it turns out, Nimrod did exist, and there was a great flood, and many other great things occured. Even the Babylonians knew this....why did you forget it?

My position is just as rational as yours, it merely starts with a different set of presuppositions.