What are we to think of Calvin?

[rmwilliamsjr]

Are you really saying that I cannot hold an opinion of Barth unless I've read the entirity of Church Dogmatics, of Rahner unless I've read all of his Theological Investigations, of Luther unless I've read every treatise he wrote, of Aquinas unless I've read the entire Summa Theologica, etc.?

of course not, what i am saying is that ignorance is not the same thing as an informed opinion. to weigh in on topics that we know nothing about, or have absorbed information from around us without study or reflection is just not worth the time.

look at the signal/noise ratio on the net now.
at the marginal value of much of what is discussed online.
look at this thread, has anyone attempted to discuss what was probably Calvin's deepest regret, his inability to fence the table, the constant usage of the Little Council as a court of appeal from the Council of Pastors. do you see any interaction on the level of historical fact? anything that is remotely valuable?

to answer your question, if i only know the name of Barth, if i have never read anything by him, nor even glanced at a biography, ought i to insist that you listen to my opinion on his theology?

likewise, to insist on knowledgable and intelligent conversation here as a matter of courtesy appears to me to be a minimal requirement to spend time here. the more time you spend, the more you desire something back of value for that investment.

why drive to the extreme, if you don't read it all, when all i said "was do your homework'. why the pushing the limits? or do you think uninformed and ignorant opinions thought up on the spot are equal to concerned, informed, careful educationed studied ones? even if they are based on incomplete or less than exhaustive reading.

[James Peter]

Because the position being taken by Michah4 was that he had read 'significant portions' of the Institutes and he was familiar at least with the general overview of the period and Calvin's theology.

Personally I'm much more familiar with the German than the Swiss reformation but I will say that the personal conduct of both Luther and Calvin and especially the sheer hatred between different reformers (let alone between the reformers and 'the Church') makes me find it highly questionable that they were the vessels of God in unveiling the true gospel that had been hidden for so long. They were men with noble intentions but entirely caught up within the politics of their day but ultimately I deeply regret the events which occured in the 16th century. They caused irreversible schism in the Western Church as well as an awful lot of bloodshed, I always thought that those who believed in the gospel were supposed to suffer rather than persecute... Ultimately the church was in need of a huge reform but people like Erasmus or LeFavre who pushed for internal reform (like Luther orginally did) have a lot of my respect. I guess I just wish things had turned out differently and also firmly believe that the reformers didn't finish the job...

[gtoktruth]

Because the position being taken by Michah4 was that he had read 'significant portions' of the Institutes and he was familiar at least with the general overview of the period and Calvin's theology.

Personally I'm much more familiar with the German than the Swiss reformation but I will say that the personal conduct of both Luther and Calvin and especially the sheer hatred between different reformers (let alone between the reformers and 'the Church') makes me find it highly questionable that they were the vessels of God in unveiling the true gospel that had been hidden for so long. They were men with noble intentions but entirely caught up within the politics of their day but ultimately I deeply regret the events which occured in the 16th century. They caused irreversible schism in the Western Church as well as an awful lot of bloodshed, I always thought that those who believed in the gospel were supposed to suffer rather than persecute... Ultimately the church was in need of a huge reform but people like Erasmus or LeFavre who pushed for internal reform (like Luther orginally did) have a lot of my respect. I guess I just wish things had turned out differently and also firmly believe that the reformers didn't finish the job...

Good post. The admonishment of the Holy Spirit to examine all things, and hold on to what is good, applies here. Somehow, nationally, Calvin;s influence kept the Swiss catholics and protestants from the holy wars that beset the rest of Europe. In that peace, the spiritual fruit of Switzerland could flourish. The gates of hell are supposed to fall before the church. Where have we seen a greater demonstration of that?

And, we know that the most effective of the righteous will be persecuted, so that the attacks on Calvin, even the just ones, are more a sign that we ought to look closely for what has so angered the evil one, than a warning. Both, to be sure, but more the former. Especially when such good fruit followed.

[Chappie]

I'm a Calvinist and I think the article represents a covering of the bare historical bones with bias and prejudice.

I am not a calvinist, and I think that the same thread that runs through this biography of Calvin runs through Calvinism...

...

[gtoktruth]

I am not a calvinist, and I think that the same thread that runs through this biography of Calvin runs through Calvinism...

...

Right! Bibically, (we do not wrestle with flesh and blood, etc) what you call "the... thread" is a serious investment by the "principalities and powers" to get us to miss what was good, that John of Geneva activated.

[Chappie]

Right! Bibically, (we do not wrestle with flesh and blood, etc) what you call "the... thread" is a serious investment by the "principalities and powers" to get us to miss what was good, that John of Geneva activated.

And what good would that be? Anything good coming out of Calvinism is a direct consequence of God causing all things to work for good to those that love him. From its inception (Augustine) reformed theology has wrought nothing but distrust and disdain. To this day God has not allowed it to hold a place of honor within the Christian community. I have (right here on this board) posted two maybe three threads on the integrity of John Calvin and how his temperament is intertwined within the reformed tradition called Calvinism...

I do not reject John Calvin so much because of his biographies pertaining to his personal life. Like someone said, we are all sinners; Calvin is no exception to this. My absolute rejection comes in how he twisted and dishonors scripture in order to protect his own personal scriptural agenda. This blatant error runs through the institutes, his preaching’s, it continues to permeate Reformed doctrine today… If you want to be a Calvinist, the first thing that you must learn is how to do the reformed twist.

Please do not believe me, just ask them for an interpretation of this passage. Please do not allow them to get away by telling you what it does not mean, ask them to tell you what it means.
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Try this one:
John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
or John 6:44…

Ignore me, but when you see their interpretation of these passages, do believe your own eyes…

[gtoktruth]

And what good would that be? Anything good coming out of Calvinism is a direct consequence of God causing all things to work for good to those that love him. From its inception (Augustine) reformed theology has wrought nothing but distrust and disdain. To this day God has not allowed it to hold a place of honor within the Christian community. I have (right here on this board) posted two maybe three threads on the integrity of John Calvin and how his temperament is intertwined within the reformed tradition called Calvinism...

I do not reject John Calvin so much because of his biographies pertaining to his personal life. Like someone said, we are all sinners; Calvin is no exception to this. My absolute rejection comes in how he twisted and dishonors scripture in order to protect his own personal scriptural agenda. This blatant error runs through the institutes, his preaching’s, it continues to permeate Reformed doctrine today… If you want to be a Calvinist, the first thing that you must learn is how to do the reformed twist.

Please do not believe me, just ask them for an interpretation of this passage. Please do not allow them to get away by telling you what it does not mean, ask them to tell you what it means.
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Try this one:
John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
or John 6:44…

Ignore me, but when you see their interpretation of these passages, do believe your own eyes…

But, Chappie, we are in complete agreement about Calvinism! Which is why I refer to him as John of Geneva! But, something about what he did in Geneva was followed by an extraordinary historical record that is a near perfect answer to the prayer we are commanded to pray, for all men...to lead a quiet and peaceful life, in all Godliness and dignity. Switzerland alone escaped the 30 years war, and all of the subsequent European wars. The one exception to this involved Napolean, which occured during a period of backsliding from Calvin's teaching. This backsliding, rebuked ny God through Napolean, and by the ministry of Haldane, was healed, and a new Constitution written cementing John's influence in the nation.

So, the Institutes, and Calvinism, have not done so well, but there must be something good we can learn from.

I thought it might be his emphasis on teaching the law and the prophets, and did an experiment. Guatemala, at that time (1993) had been almost 30 years in a nasty civil war. So, I went there, Haldane style, and just taught biblical law, the law and the prophets, according to Matt 5: 17-20. After about two years, the Lord called me away. But, the civil war ended just after I left!

This is only one report, but it indicates the sort of thing I am looking for.