Originally posted by foudroyant
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Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Open Theism
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Last edited by IDScience; 06-07-2014, 04:28 PM.
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I've spent a bit more time checking the physics. I think I am going to retract my objection against the idea that God is within time.
It's true that our space-time universe has time as inherently part of it, which made me worry that the concept of time outside our space-time is dubious. However it appears that theories such as string theory which talk about a meta-universe from which ours might have come still have something like time. As I understand it, string theories typically have 11 or 26 dimensions, only one of which is roughly speaking time. So even if our specific 4 dimensions is just a small part of something larger, it seems like it's at least possible and maybe even likely that time itself might be meaningful outside our own universe.
This is important because the most straightforward reading of the Bible is that God is within time. While it's clear that God has long-term plans, I think the simplest reading of the Bible is that he isn't responsible for every detail. He has a planned goal for it. He certainly causes some thing directly. He works with us to bring good out of evil. But on balance the most likely reading of Scripture seems to me that he doesn't control everything. Indeed the universe seems to be set up to make that impossible in principle.
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Originally posted by themuzicman View PostIt is a view that reflects Scripture accurately.
And it does not deny divine omniscience.
Open Theism does deny divine omniscience:
Acts 2:33
this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. (NASB)
1 Peter 1:2
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure. (NASB)
a. Danker: predetermination, of God's omniscient wisdom and intention ὡρισμένῃ βουλῇ Ac 2:23. destined by God the Father 1 Pt 1:2 (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, prognwsis, page 867)
b. Vine: "a foreknowledge" (akin to A.), is used only of Divine "foreknowledge," Acts 2:23; 1 Peter 1:2 . "Foreknowledge" is one aspect of omniscience
http://www.studylight.org/dictionari...iew.cgi?n=1101
c. International Standard Bible Encyclopedia: In the sense of prescience foreknowledge is an aspect of God's omniscience
http://www.studylight.org/encycloped...iew.cgi?n=3503
d. Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology: In his omniscience God knows what the future holds both for individuals and for nations. (Herbert M. Wolf)
http://www.studylight.org/dictionari...view.cgi?n=271Last edited by foudroyant; 08-15-2014, 07:19 AM.
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Originally posted by foudroyant View PostOpen Theism does deny divine omniscience:
Acts 2:33
this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. (NASB)
1 Peter 1:2
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure. (NASB)
a. Danker: predetermination, of God's omniscient wisdom and intention ὡρισμένῃ βουλῇ Ac 2:23. destined by God the Father 1 Pt 1:2 (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, prognwsis, page 867)
b. Vine: "a foreknowledge" (akin to A.), is used only of Divine "foreknowledge," Acts 2:23; 1 Peter 1:2 . "Foreknowledge" is one aspect of omniscience
http://www.studylight.org/dictionari...iew.cgi?n=1101
c. International Standard Bible Encyclopedia: In the sense of prescience foreknowledge is an aspect of God's omniscience
http://www.studylight.org/encycloped...iew.cgi?n=3503
d. Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology: In his omniscience God knows what the future holds both for individuals and for nations. (Herbert M. Wolf)
http://www.studylight.org/dictionari...view.cgi?n=271"What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Originally posted by foudroyant View PostWhat then does πρόγνωσις mean?
from G4267; TDNT - 1:715,119; n f
—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
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1) foreknowledge
2) forethought, pre-arrangement
—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
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From G4267; forethought:—foreknowledge.
—Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)
It can mean more than you are trying to make it say...which seems to be your modus operandi."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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It's not more than what I am trying to say. It coincides with what I am trying to say. When we look at ALL the evidence this still doesn't demonstrate my evidence is "very weak". Nothing you cited refutes what I cited in Post #153.Last edited by foudroyant; 08-15-2014, 09:06 PM.
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Originally posted by foudroyant View PostIt's not more than what I am trying to say. It coincides with what I am trying to say. When we look at ALL the evidence this still doesn't demonstrate my evidence is "very weak". Nothing you cited refutes what I cited in Post #153."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Originally posted by hedrick View PostBut on balance the most likely reading of Scripture seems to me that he doesn't control everything. Indeed the universe seems to be set up to make that impossible in principle.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by foudroyant View PostIt's not more than what I am trying to say. It coincides with what I am trying to say. When we look at ALL the evidence this still doesn't demonstrate my evidence is "very weak". Nothing you cited refutes what I cited in Post #153.
God will have an elect. Again, not a problem for open theism.
What's interesting is that in the bible there are 3 things that are predestined:
Adoption, inheritance (Eph 1), and being conformed to the image of the son. (Rom 8). All are done by God, and all are still future to us.
Foreknowledge is similar:
God foreknows that he will conform Christians into the image of His son (Rom 8). God foreknew Israel (corporately, Rom 11). God foreknows the elect (corporately, 1 peter 1), and God foreknew Christ's death (Acts 2).
That's it. That's all the bible says God foreknows and predestines.
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OT affirms that God knows everything that is possible to know. That would include some future events exactly as they will happen, and also, all future possible events. IOW, God knows if you do w, then x, then y, the result WILL be z...or any combination you so choose. God knows ALL future facts, probabilities and possibilities."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Originally posted by foudroyant View PostWhy not all (in contrast to "some") future events exactly as they will happen?
Do you believe God can make a rock so big that even he cannot lift it?"What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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