Discussion: Music and the Church of Christ

[Theotimos]

Greetings, brothers and sisters in the Lord!

Re: Daniel Keeran's post:

Yes, I agree that by and large the Christian church did not employ musical instruments in its worship for centuries.

I would go further to say I agree that scripture affirms that we are to "make melody" in our hearts, although the precise grammatical construction, and thus the meaning, of the Ephesian and Colossian exhortations may be subject to debate.

While I accept the exhortation to a capella worship, I do not know that a failure to worship this way constitutes a condition of perdition. However, each Christian must weigh the significance of one's worship, or failure to worship, the Lord in a way that is pleasing and acceptable to Him, not merely in the matter of musical instruments, but in any facet of worship.

For critical thinkers, I submit the following:

If I give my son $20 and tell him to buy a loaf of bread, a tub of butter, bring them back, and to bring back the change; and my son buys a loaf of bread, a tub of butter, 10 packs of bubble gum for himself, brings back the stuff, and brings back the change, has he obeyed me?

Though I did not explicitly prohibit the purchase of bubble gum, most of us would agree that my son acted presumptuously when he purchased additional items for himself, even though he fulfilled the positive directions.

Now let's take it a step further. I am a business owner or government agency supervisor who authorizes a subordinate to buy a camera and storage media for it. He may spend up to $400 on those combined items. The subordinate goes to the store and buys a camera, storage media, and an iPod so he and his co-workers can take turns listening to music during their work. The total comes to $397 with tax. Has the employee obeyed me? Technically, he bought a camera and storage media as I instructed and kept the amount within the limits I set.

But did he obey me? Or did he violate my private trust and, in the government scenario, violate the public trust? We can see that the seriousness of the enterprise has become elevated in these last two scenarios. So I ask: What is more serious, authorization within private/public trust or authorization within God's commands?

Just something to consider.

In Christ,
Timothy

[jpholding]

For critical thinkers, I submit the following:

Neither "critical" nor "thinker" applies to you in any sense. This asinine analogy of yours is typical fundamentalist hogwash. To wit:

If I give my son $20 and tell him to buy a loaf of bread, a tub of butter, bring them back, and to bring back the change; and my son buys a loaf of bread, a tub of butter, 10 packs of bubble gum for himself, brings back the stuff, and brings back the change, has he obeyed me?

Look, stupid.....

That's not what the deal is here. What the deal is would be THIS:

You give our son $20 and tell him to buy a loaf of bread, a tub of butter, and the store you send him to has nothing in it but a loaf of bread and a tub of butter to buy. A remarkably stupid excuse for a store, sure, but that is only because your analogy is remarkably stupid to begin with.

10 years later, a new store finally opens that has other items, but we have nothing from you that says anything about whether your son was ever sent to purchase anything from there. But we do know that 10 years earlier, the other store was all you had available to shop at.

Your argument is like using this situation to declare that there was a moratorium or limit on buying anything but butter and bread, when the obvious issue is availability. I have pounded this into your head countless times now, and yet you still keep returning to the same idiotic idea that this has something to do with a moral avoidance of instruments. It doesn't, and there is zero evidence that it ever did. Get that through that brick you call a skull!

This insane fundy crapola you keep pushing needs to be stopped. You're making Christianity look like a religion of fools. You really need to just shut up, because it is people like you who are turning Western Christianity into the despicable, spiritually bankrupt mess that it is.

Just something to consider.

I have something for you to consider -- how about you apply for residency here? Maybe you can persuade some of these people that your arguments have merit:

http://www.danvers-state-ia.com/

[Theotimos]

Dear JPHolding,

The reason your "correction" and "teaching" are not getting through to me is because they are in error.

BTW, are you an elder at your church who "corrects?"

Not about moral avoidance? May I suggest you read, or perhaps re-read, the letter to the Ephesians in its entirety. It is wall to wall moral instruction founded on Paul's unique theological perspective. Your statement suggests a failure to understand Ephesians that evinces a dire estrangement from scripture. Though you hold yourself in high regard, I do not look to you to gain a better understanding of the Word.

I wish you well.

Theotimos

[Daniel Keeran]

Does anyone police the level of respectful content on TheologyWeb?

[Mountain Man]

Does anyone police the level of respectful content on TheologyWeb?

I can tell you from personal experience that we have no shortage of self-righteous jerks who have taken it upon themselves to do exactly that.

[jpholding]

The reason your "correction" and "teaching" are not getting through to me is because they are in error. 1

It's too bad you're so much better at saying so than showing so, little one. But that's all you've got, really, is a loud mouth and no arguments.

BTW, are you an elder at your church who "corrects?"

No, I rank a LOT higher than that in the hierarchy. I know a heck of a lot more than a church elder.

Not about moral avoidance? May I suggest you read, or perhaps re-read, the letter to the Ephesians in its entirety

I know the content quite well, better than you ever will. There's nothing in there about any moral problem with musical instruments. Maybe you have one of those special editions of Ephesians from Nag Hammadi?

It is wall to wall moral instruction founded on Paul's unique theological perspective.

And not one bit of it applied to musical instruments. You're not fooling anyone with your shell game, Goofy.

I wish you well.

Your arguments smell.

[jpholding]

I can tell you from personal experience that we have no shortage of self-righteous jerks who have taken it upon themselves to do exactly that.

Maybe he wants membership papers.

[Daniel Keeran]

I have found it to be the case more often than not, that those who favour the use of instruments in worship, engage in name-calling and put-down's of those who favour only vocal music in worship. If there is no TWeb to assist, I do not wish to subject myself to this.

[jpholding]

I have found it to be the case more often than not, that those who favour the use of instruments in worship, engage in name-calling and put-down's of those who favour only vocal music in worship.

Maybe that's because those who argue against instruments actually ARE stupid. Why don't you show otherwise with an intelligent argument?

If there is no TWeb to assist, I do not wish to subject myself to this.

Where do you usually go to subject yourself to it?


You might want to read the stickies concerning this section of TWeb, Dan. Self-righteous police aren't given the red carpet here.

[Darth Executor]

I have found it to be the case more often than not, that those who favour the use of instruments in worship, engage in name-calling and put-down's of those who favour only vocal music in worship. If there is no TWeb to assist, I do not wish to subject myself to this.

I favor* only vocals and I engage in gratuitous name-calling all the time.


*favor =/= put down the flute and the bell, or i'll send you straight to hell

[Theotimos]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

Let's examine the claim that Ephesians 5:15-21 is a passage that does not deal with the moral avoidance of musical instruments. To our knowledge, Ephesians is Paul's letter to Jewish and Greek converts in the Greek city of Ephesus.

Verse 15 exhorts us to walk circumspectly.
Verse 16 cautions us to redeem the time because the days are evil.
Verse 17 follows with the exhortation to understand what the will of the Lord is.
Verse 18a then warns NOT to be drunk with wine. Why? Because drunkenness is listed among the catalog of sins. For instance, in Romans 13:13 it is one of the "works of darkness. In Galatians 5:21, it is cataloged as one of the "works of the flesh" which prevent inheritance of the kingdom of God.

So, are we to avoid drunkenness. Are we to do something in place of getting drunk? The scripture says, Yes.
Verse 18b "but be filled with the spirit."
Galatians details the fruits of the spirit. What specific properties of the fruits of the spirit are detailed following verse 18? What specific effects bloom from the filling of the spirit?
Verse 19 "speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord,"

But isn't a psalm a song with musical accompaniment? Yes, it is. That's why the scripture follows with an enjoinder to be "making melody in your heart to the Lord." "Psalm" and psallo (translated "making melody" in the NKJV) come from the same root. The instrumental melody is now to be made in the heart, much as we now assemble on the first day of the week instead of the last, much as we now place our trust in the final evening sacrifice of Yeshua instead of on annual or other sacrifices of bulls and goats, etc. We live in a new dispensation. The essence of the plan remains the same - God saves. But some of the particulars have been changed for His good pleasure and for our benefit.

The contradistinction of spirit and flesh, light and darkness, etc. runs throughout the Testament of Jesus and his apostles and disciples, as do the effects of those.

The message of Ephesians is clear. And it is no coincidence, my brothers and sisters, that the early Christians practiced a capella worship for centuries.

Some have maintained that the historical milieu and culture affected how the Christians practiced their worship. If culture and milieu have affected Christian belief and practice, I would suggest to you, my brothers and sisters, that it is OUR culture that has done so, that has led us to think that, despite the actual practice of the Christians who went before us, it is acceptable and even desirable to use instruments in worship.

If the Christians had had a positive command from the Lord to use musical instruments in worship, do you think anything the pagans did would have deterred them from obedience? Were they not stoned and beheaded and impaled and doused with flammables and set on fire and crucified upside down for the depth and steadfastness of their beliefs?

Scripture offers no prescription (command or authorization) for the use of musical instruments in worship.

Scripture offers no description of musical instruments used in Christian worship.

For centuries, Christians did not practice their worship with musical instruments.

From a rhetorical standpoint, the burden of proof is on those who want to introduce musical instruments into worship; but the scripture, the practice, and the history of the church are clear on this question.

God's blessings to all,
Theotimos

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

I'd like to ask, if one genuinely worships the Lord with instruments does this affect his salvation?

[lilpixieofterror]

I have found it to be the case more often than not, that those who favour the use of instruments in worship, engage in name-calling and put-down's of those who favour only vocal music in worship. If there is no TWeb to assist, I do not wish to subject myself to this.

I guess I'm close to the gates of hell since not only do I enjoy the use of instruments, but I also enjoy the CCM style of music.

[lilpixieofterror]

I'd like to ask, if one genuinely worships the Lord with instruments does this affect his salvation?

I sure hope it doesn't since I must be close to going to hell since I enjoy Casting Crowns, Jeremy Camp, and Mercy Me (to name a few).

Edited to add:

Speaking of hell bound, here is a really cool evil show I want to go see protest in the spring (when it visits me). What are these evil Satan Worshipers that dare to use instruments in their singing doing this for? Let us look:

With a $10 admission price, the “Rock & Worship Road Show” aims to be an event for fans of all ages, especially families. In addition to bringing a night of exciting performances, the tour is also dedicated to a bigger purpose: helping kids with juvenile diabetes via “Imagine A Cure,” a non profit organization to support research that will lead to a cure. and those with medical needs around the world through Compassion International. For more information on “Imagine A Cure,” go to: www.imagineacureonline.com. For more information on Compassion International go to www.compassion.com
http://www.therockandworshiproadshow...bout/index.php

Wow! What evil they are promoting! Fair priced Contemporary Christian Music and the support of a good cause, we must stand up as Christians and put a stop to this right away!

[Meta Knight]

I guess I'm close to the gates of hell since...I also enjoy the CCM style of music.

Yeah, that's about the size of it.

Heretic.