Discussion: Music and the Church of Christ

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

Dear LIlPunkishOfTerror,

So sue me.

God bless,
Theotimos

Coward.

[jpholding]

Does Theo remind us of anything, the way he constantly repeats himself, ignores contrary arguments, and hates music?

Oh yeah....

[Mountain Man]

Never does he say to make music. Never does he say to blow a horn or pluck an instrument.

Oh, doesn't he?

Psalm 150

1 Praise the LORD.
Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty heavens.

2 Praise him for his acts of power;
praise him for his surpassing greatness.

3 Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
praise him with the harp and lyre,

4 praise him with tambourine and dancing,
praise him with the strings and flute,

5 praise him with the clash of cymbals,
praise him with resounding cymbals.

6 Let everything that has breath praise the LORD.
Praise the LORD.

Now unless you want to argue that the God of the Jews isn't the God of the Christians, you've got a theological problem.

[jpholding]

Now unless you want to argue that the God of the Jews isn't the God of the Christians, you've got a theological problem.

NO PROBLEM!

Just use your patented Ronco Dispensation-o-matic(TM) to explain away that difference!

[lilpixieofterror]

So easily bent out of shape are you?

So easily capable of reading your emotions of frustration into others eh?

As far as the early church fathers go, try a read of Clement. He wrote rather extensively in conformance to the command to "make melody in your heart."

Please show that it is impossible to make a melody in your heart while using an instrument.

As far as the "answers" you claim from JPHolding, they tend to confirm rather than to disconfirm what I have written, do they not?

No they don't, you're just too stupid to understand his answers and you keep showing it with each and every post. I've already asked you once to prove that "make melody in your heart" equals "no instruments allowed" an assertion you have yet to prove. You've been reduced to quote mining, now will you actually show your assertion please or do you think screaming sound bites at the top of your lungs makes you sound intelligent?

The sense that the use of musical instruments was wrong, although Christians may have perceived other reasons to deepen the significance of the command, do not negate the command. How would your reliance on JPHolding's assertion deter obedience to the command? How would his assertion negate it? It would simply add more meat to it rather than to head in the opposite direction, which would be to justify it.

There is no commandment moron and all you're doing is just reading it into your views and ignoring any counter arguments to your claims. You have a truly amazing ability to ignore information in which you don't want to hear, did CoC teach you that or have you always been that way?

Unfortunately, you and several of the arguers cannot seem to understand what the starting point is for this discussion. It is not, "Shall we or shall we not use musical instruments in worship, or does it make any difference?"

You have failed to show why we shouldn't. The best you can do is scream soundbites at the top of your lungs and pretend it's an argument. Please show that "make a melody with your heart" must mean that no instruments are allowed. I wasn't not aware that there were special properties that instruments have that make it impossible to do both, perhaps you can share these special properties with us?

The question is, "How does the Lord want us to worship Him? Does He specify anthing? The answer is, yes. "Sing, and make melody in our hearts."

So that therefore means, "but don't use any instruments or else!"

Wow, what a fundy you are, sorry honey but please show that it is impossible to sing, make a melody in your heart, and use an instrument. Me thinks that you can't so you think repeating yourself again and again without actually answering my question in the hopes that it might make my question go away. Please answer, I'm waiting.

He even gives us the context of the counterpoint of drunkenness and being filled with the spirit. If the spirit is the "writer" of scripture, then he chose his words carefully. Never does he say to make music. Never does he say to blow a horn or pluck an instrument. He does say to sing, and to make melody in your heart. That is the directive. Scripture knows of no other.

Singing is most of what music is about dope. Do you even know what music is? Give you a hint, every worship song is all about singing and using instruments to enhance the voice. Keep looking silly because you're sure doing a great job about it. Now please show already that you can't sing, making a melody in your heart, and using an instrument at the same time. You've failed again and again to actually answer this question, perhaps you'll actually have an answer this time?

[DoomRater]

You know... the weird thing here is I thought vocal cords WERE an instrument all their own, and since anyone who can talk has em...

[Mountain Man]

That and the whole misreading of "make music in your heart" would also seem to rule out singing.

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

You know... the weird thing here is I thought vocal cords WERE an instrument all their own, and since anyone who can talk has em...

Actually the CoC doctrine excludes mechanical instruments, if I recall. Edit: come to think of it, it was the Catholic church that introduced organs to worship, so it may well be a rebellion against Catholicism...

[Kain Anderson]

Sorry Theo, but your arguments are going to fall on deaf ears here.

JP argues that Christians were too stupid to play instruments even though it was very common for rich Romans to have their slaves trained to play music (same slaves that eventually became Christians) and even though everyone knows that a classic Greek education involved extensive music training (which again included Greek slaves and freemen alike some of which became Christians).

Then JP argues that Christians were just too darn poor to own instruments even though a lyre in Greek society was about as common as a guitar in our society (and he of course misrepresents his sources on that one, too.).

Just Google JP and you'll find that namecalling and grandstanding is his M.O. and that misusing sources and grandstanding when called on it seems to be what his Masters in Research taught him.

[DoomRater]

So what's your excuse for ignoring the honor part, hmm?

[Cheshire Cat]

I was born and raised in a Church of Christ so I'm a little familiar with the "reasoning" of folks like Theo. Pardon me if the following as already been brought up, but the thing is, it can all be refuted a couple of ways with just a little logic via reductio ad absurdum:

CoC contention: What the Bible (primarily NT) is silent on is prohibited.

However if we take this to its logical conclusion, two facts rear their heads:

(1) The Bible is silent wrt. the proposition that musical instruments are wrong; therefore the proposition "musical instruments are wrong" must be prohibited also!

(2) The Bible is silent on the fact that silence is prohibitive; therefore this "silence hermeneutic" is self-refuting. For if it is true it is false, and if it is false then it is still false!

I've never seen any of my Church of Christ friends answer these inconvenient facts. Perhaps a proponent of their reasoning would care to do so?

[jpholding]

JP argues that Christians were too stupid to play instruments even though it was very common for rich Romans to have their slaves trained to play music (same slaves that eventually became Christians)

No, stupid. Get the arguments right.

Playing instruments required SPECIAL TRAINING.

Those slaves had WEALTHY MASTERS who paid for it.

Few people had the WEALTH to spare for such training -- for themselves or slaves.

So few that to demand that they be mentioned in a tiny handful of occassional letters, none of which had a thing to do with music, is extremely stupid.

You're like the windup cymbal-crashing monkey who repeats the same refuted premises over and over again, oblivious to what the argument really is and how to counter it -- which you can't.

and even though everyone knows that a classic Greek education involved extensive music training

Already brought up by Theopotamus and refuted. Still a tiny minority, still an irrational demand to see it highlighted in letters written for other purposes.

Then JP argues that Christians were just too darn poor to own instruments even though a lyre in Greek society was about as common as a guitar in our society (and he of course misrepresents his sources on that one, too.).

Sure I do, No-Brain. That's why you provided a source for this. Of course, I DO see guitars all over the place when I walk through downtown Orlando. Why just the other day, they had to close a major restaurant because they couldn't fit all the people and their guitars in there.

Just Google JP and you'll find that namecalling and grandstanding is his M.O. and that misusing sources and grandstanding when called on it seems to be what his Masters in Research taught him.

Yes indeed. You'll find a few pages by frustrated losers like No-Brain here....who resort to temper tantrums when arguments fail them. Doesn't it speak for itself that he uncritically sides with atheists and god-haters?

[jpholding]

I've never seen any of my Church of Christ friends answer these inconvenient facts. Perhaps a proponent of their reasoning would care to do so?

An excellent point. Using the "argument from silence" also "proves" that Paul didn't believe Jesus ever walked the earth, but was crucified and resurrected in a sublunar spiritual realm. That's what the atheists have done; the CoC anti-instrument fanatics just don't have any clue how serious their fallacies are.

[Mountain Man]

Looks like Theotimos has flown the coop. Pity. I was looking forward to his rationalization of Psalm 150 as it would have no doubt been entertaining.

Hmmm... maybe Kain "No Brain" Anderson would like to try.

[Kain Anderson]

Looks like Theotimos has flown the coop. Pity. I was looking forward to his rationalization of Psalm 150 as it would have no doubt been entertaining.

Hmmm... maybe Kain "No Brain" Anderson would like to try.

What rationalization are you looking for? Look, as I said before, the so-called Restoration Movement leaders considered this an argument AGAINST instrumental music use in the church because, to paraphrase Lipscomb:

a) the Jews used instruments in praise to God (temple and otherwise)
b) the Romans used instruments in their pagan worship
c) instruments were integral to Greek life and worship
d) all 3 groups immediately stopped using instruments in worship when they became Christians

So quoting OT verses all day long showing that the Jews loved their instruments and so did their God is not helpful when that behavior doesn't seem to have transferred to the early Christians. That's what JP was trying to address in his original post by offering a reason "why" other than what Lipscomb asserts (that they believed it to be wrong).

Maybe if you had half a brain yourself you might have already picked up on that???