Discussion: Music and the Church of Christ

[jpholding]

The tone of many of the posts is regrettable. The idea should not be to win an argument, and certainly not to put anyone down, but to discover what the will of the Lord is.

Go read Matthew 23 and get back to us, Mr. Self-Righteous.

While it may be plausible to consider that Christians rejected the use of instruments because of an association with pagan practices, it may be that such an association only further buttressed what Christians already believed and practiced.

It may also be that aliens from the planet Grong showed up with a bunch of musical instruments which they used in perverse sexual rites, thereby putting Christians off of them for eternity.

Sorry -- "may be" is just another way of saying, "I have no evidence to support my argument, so here's a wild speculation."

If He wants no musical instruments in worship, we should be content to oblige Him. That would be loving Him - to give Him His way.

And if some self-righteous prig tries to use passive-aggressive rants and speculations to piously declare what he says God "wants" we should immediately watch for him to start dispensing Kool-Aid.

Whatever we conclude from the scripture, we should really avoid the kind of derogation and prideful oneupmanship that has often marked these posts. That cannot please our Master. And if I have written anything to offend anyone or that seemed to elevate my often pitiful understanding (or lack thereof) of scripture, please forgive me!

It's always a "pride" thing with whiners like you. Too bad Jesus didn't have your advice when he confronted his own ideological opponents. Maybe when you elevate yourself to godhood next week you can go straighten him out!

I don't forgive you because you didn't offend me. But you sure did provide some decent comic relief!

[Mountain Man]

And if I have written anything to offend anyone or that seemed to elevate my often pitiful understanding (or lack thereof) of scripture, please forgive me!

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."
-Abraham Lincoln

[Meta Knight]

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."
-Abraham Lincoln

I thought that was Mark Twain...and Proverbs...

[jpholding]

I thought that was Mark Twain...and Proverbs...

You're both wrong!


It was Pope Leo X who said that!

[Mountain Man]

Eh, a Google search attributed it to Honest Abe.

Last time I'll ever trust that website...

[Andius]

This oughta get good.

Considering music is one of the biggest issues in my little corner of the world.

[Theotimos]

Dear angry, acerbic JPHolding,

You said a variety of things which are here repeated for those who may be reading for the first time:

Originally posted by Theotimos

The tone of many of the posts is regrettable. The idea should not be to win an argument, and certainly not to put anyone down, but to discover what the will of the Lord is.

Go read Matthew 23 and get back to us, Mr. Self-Righteous.

While it may be plausible to consider that Christians rejected the use of instruments because of an association with pagan practices, it may be that such an association only further buttressed what Christians already believed and practiced.

It may also be that aliens from the planet Grong showed up with a bunch of musical instruments which they used in perverse sexual rites, thereby putting Christians off of them for eternity.

Sorry -- "may be" is just another way of saying, "I have no evidence to support my argument, so here's a wild speculation."

If He wants no musical instruments in worship, we should be content to oblige Him. That would be loving Him - to give Him His way.

And if some self-righteous prig tries to use passive-aggressive rants and speculations to piously declare what he says God "wants" we should immediately watch for him to start dispensing Kool-Aid.

Whatever we conclude from the scripture, we should really avoid the kind of derogation and prideful oneupmanship that has often marked these posts. That cannot please our Master. And if I have written anything to offend anyone or that seemed to elevate my often pitiful understanding (or lack thereof) of scripture, please forgive me!

It's always a "pride" thing with whiners like you. Too bad Jesus didn't have your advice when he confronted his own ideological opponents. Maybe when you elevate yourself to godhood next week you can go straighten him out!

I don't forgive you because you didn't offend me. But you sure did provide some decent comic relief!

I am not trying to win an argument against you. Let each man be convinced in his own mind in regard to the use or disuse of musical instruments in the worship service. If it helps those who read your posts and who might be weak-minded, I will offer this:

1. Your ad hominem attacks offer no confirmation or disconfirmation of your belief or anyone else's. They only indicate that you are unable to tolerate disagreement.

2. Plausibility is not certitude. You have not refuted the reasoning of those folks who believe musical instruments are disallowed in worship. You have simply offered an alternate explanation for why the church did not use musical instruments in its worship - for centuries.

3. Various Christian denominations have struggled with the use of musical instruments in worship, not just the Church of Christ. The famous Baptist preacher of the 1800s, Charles Spurgeon, lamented the use of musical instruments in worship, though he did not believe them to be unlawful. He was clear that he thought in the New Dispensation that it was the human voice, prompted by the heart and the spirit, that could - alone - praise the Most High, not any mechanical device. He allowed only a cappella singing at his Metropolitan Tabernacle.

4, Your reference to Matthew 23 does not apply. In 23, Jesus spoke about the Pharisees and the scribes. A. You are not Jesus. B. The Pharisees and scribes were, for the most part, fundamentally and unalterably opposed to Jesus and his gospel, and were manipulated by their "father, the Devil."

In this forum, you are often addressing fellow Christians - people who acknowledge their sinfulness and who confess that Jesus is their Lord, Savior, and Messiah. I want to assume that you address the issues you do because you want to edify your brothers and sisters in Christ. Disparagement is hardly going to serve that purpose.

Blessings and goodwill to all in the name of Jesus,
Theotimos

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

Erm, Theotimos, the issue regarding Matthew 23 is, Jesus disparaged the Pharisees - also I would cite Paul in the book of Acts where he called people down too....Paul wasn't Jesus.

The issue then is not whether one is Jesus, but whether it is in certain circumstances acceptable to call another down if they are in the wrong. Please explain why this is not applicable in a Christian setting?

[jpholding]

Dear angry, acerbic JPHolding,

I told ya I wasn't angry, you turkey. And I'm not "acerbic" either. Quit making stuff up.

You said a variety of things which are here repeated for those who may be reading for the first time:

Like who? Or did you just need to fluff your post some? How about you ANSWER the points I made?

Oh wait...I see why:

I am not trying to win an argument against you

Good idea...no sense trying when a loss is inevitable.

If it helps those who read your posts and who might be weak-minded, I will offer this:

Oh dear. The same old canards again.

1. Your ad hominem attacks offer no confirmation or disconfirmation of your belief or anyone else's. They only indicate that you are unable to tolerate disagreement.

Wrong. It indicates that I don't tolerate braying jackasses like present company (guess who?) mangling the truth for the sake of their own msinformed agendas.

2. Plausibility is not certitude.

It's more than "plausibility," Mr. Donkey....it's "reality."

You have not refuted the reasoning of those folks who believe musical instruments are disallowed in worship.

Of course I have. They have exactly NO "reasoning" to speak of -- just wild speculation. And you, who says "plausibility is not certitude," apparently thinks that "speculativity" IS.

The immediate historical contexts offer the ONLY viable reason for the non-mention of instruments, and the ONLY one that is supported by evidence. That makes it the de facto winner until you or some other nut overturns it with better evidence.

Got any?

No?

Then go stick yourself in the wide end of a tuba and blow from the other side.

You have simply offered an alternate explanation for why the church did not use musical instruments in its worship - for centuries.

Alternate, HECK! It's your speculative wah wah that's the "alternate"; mine, with the evidence, is the primary!

3. Various Christian denominations have struggled with the use of musical instruments in worship, not just the Church of Christ.

Isn't that just too bad. So Spurgeon's personal problems add to the argument regarding the first century how? Spurgeon may have been a great preacher, but he was no more educated than most modern popular preachers like Stanley, MacArthur, etc. and wouldn't know how to apply the agonistic dialectic to the text if someone painted Malina and Neyrey's work on his inner eyelids. IOW don't throw his ignorant opinion at me about some "New Dispensation" he just made up out of his head to get back at those annoying kazoo-players in the choir.

Why people continue to think someone like Spurgeon is a worthwhile authority for Biblical exegesis is beyond me. It must be the beard. Why don't you try Wikipedia instead? It's much more reliable.

4, Your reference to Matthew 23 does not apply. In 23, Jesus spoke about the Pharisees and the scribes. A. You are not Jesus. B. The Pharisees and scribes were, for the most part, fundamentally and unalterably opposed to Jesus and his gospel, and were manipulated by their "father, the Devil."

Oh dear. Stale canard #342 again. Please explain why:

1) Jesus is able to be such a hypocrite and insult people while we can't. See also LP's response above.
2) Why insult is restricted to those who are "manipulated by the Devil." Also prove to us that your crusade against instruments is not a case of YOU being manipulated by the devil to help destroy a helpful element in worship, such that YOU in fact are opposed to Jesus and his gospel.

I'll give you a hint: You won't get an answer by drinking Kool-Aid.

I want to assume that you address the issues you do because you want to edify your brothers and sisters in Christ. Disparagement is hardly going to serve that purpose.

Frankly, Jack....those like you who turn the Body of Christ into a disgrace, and foment uncritical thinking and emotional experiences, and remake God in your own image for your own comfort, and then try to force your narrow, sectarian biases on everyone else in your vain self-righteousness, where you focus endlessly on meaningless peripherals rather than addressing touching on the heart of the problems....don't need to be "edified." You need to go serve Christ in a soup kitchen and leave the intellectual stuff to those of us who know what we're doing.

Talk about pride -- you've got enough of it to overflow the Superdome.

[Andius]

If it helps those who read your posts and who might be weak-minded, I will offer this:

Good job at insulting the intelligence of the readership here Theo. Way to be "non-insulting".

[lilpixieofterror]

Dear angry, acerbic JPHolding,

Do you have any any evidence to present that JPH is angry or is the fact, "Waa! He called me stupid!" all you can produce? I will await for you to back this up before I can move on any further.

[Theotimos]

Dear LilPunkish of Terror and JPHolding,

I thought I was clear in my response, but I'll try one more time. Re: LilPunkishofTerror's thought that people can be called out in the manner of JPHolding, i.e., ridiculed and disparaged, no, that is not what Christ did in Matthew 23 nor Paul. Do you really think that a belief that singing in the church should be done without musical accompaniment is somehow comparable to the hypocrisy and rejection of Christ by the scribes and Pharisees, etc.?

JPHolding is not, in my humble opinion, calling out anyone. He simply slams posters that he does not agree with when they refuse to look through the lens that he demands they look through. The scripture is clear on how we are to behave toward one another: demonstrating the fruits of the spirit, such as patience and gentleness; employing words that edify and which do not tear down; resisting the temptation to quarrel with that great evil, the human tongue, to satisfy the fleshly pursuit of winning an argument. Without love, the scripture makes plain that we are noisy gongs, even if we happen to know a great deal.

Re: JPHolding and your demand that I "answer" your arguments. I thought I was clear. My primary references for belief are the Lord's word and the practice of the early Christians - not outside historical sources, though they can be useful.

The scripture of the New Testament declares affirmatively that we sing, and that we make music from the heart. Do you know of a New Testament scripture that contradicts that? Does not the practice of the early Christians conform to the affirmative declarations of the NT?

It is interesting that pagans used instruments and that Christians may have - further - had an adverse reaction to their use in their own worship because of that, but it does not negate the affirmative declaration of scripture. In fact, it could be said to bolster it. As to only the wealthy being able to afford musical instruments, well, Acts mentions prominent people who became believers. One can only imagine that some of the converts from Judaism or pagan Greek religion, etc., had money. But we just do not find any mention of musical instruments used in Christian worship.

Now, you do not have to agree with me or the church of Christ understanding of scripture and early Christian practice, and I am not going to call you any names. The Lord has given you your conscience and you are accountable only to Him. I can respect that you disagree without holding your opinion in any particular reverence, however. For me, and I suspect for many others, your name-calling and related ridicule only detract from and diminish whatever merit your points may have.

I wish you well.

In Christ,
Theotimos

[jpholding]

I thought I was clear in my response, but I'll try one more time.

You were very clear. The problem is that you answer stank.

Do you really think that a belief that singing in the church should be done without musical accompaniment is somehow comparable to the hypocrisy and rejection of Christ by the scribes and Pharisees, etc.?

It's more than that, little man -- it's the fact that you despicably contrive your own epistemology in order to advance your self-righteous agenda against musical instruments. In other words, you despise truth, you despise reason, and for no other purpose than to advance your personal agenda at the expense of others.

What's wrong? Did someone beat you up with a tuba when you were 3?

JPHolding is not, in my humble opinion, calling out anyone.

The one whose own ox is gored seldom has anything but "humble opinion" to offer. They certainly don't have truth or fact.

He simply slams posters that he does not agree with when they refuse to look through the lens that he demands they look through.

PLEASE! It's far more than "not looking through the lens," it is ignoring and explaining away brute fact and putting unsupported contrivances in its place, simply because of your personal problems. Get over yourself. You're far, far from being any sort of serious student of the Bible or its defining contexts.

The scripture is clear on how we are to behave toward one another

Yes, it's quite clear how we're to treat a wayward brother who won't accept correction: He is to be treated as a heathen and handed over to Satan. You have ignored the correction that this article gives, inventing childish excuses to maintain an indefensible position for your own selfish purposes. Therefore, to Heathen Country you go!

Re: JPHolding and your demand that I "answer" your arguments. I thought I was clear.

You were clear: You had no answers.

My primary references for belief are the Lord's word

WHAT Lord's word? Now you're inventing sayings of Jesus! What cult are you part of, the Mormons?

and the practice of the early Christians - not outside historical sources, though they can be useful.

This is an absolutely moronic attitude to take towards exegesis. The practice is interpretable only BY what we know from outside sources; apart from that, no other defining context is possible -- unless you invent one out of your head, which is exactly what YOU have done. for the sake of your own self-centered self-righteousness.

The scripture of the New Testament declares affirmatively that we sing, and that we make music from the heart. Do you know of a New Testament scripture that contradicts that? Does not the practice of the early Christians conform to the affirmative declarations of the NT?

False dilemma, turkey. You're not arguing merely on affirmative declaration; you're adding riders on to those declarations so that they also exhaustively define practice under all circumstances. Your skills at logic and critical thinking are obviously badly damaged from that psychologically abusive encounter you had with a clarinet at age 6.

As to only the wealthy being able to afford musical instruments, well, Acts mentions prominent people who became believers.

Raised and answered already, goofball. I pointed out that most NT lit doesn't even have reason to mention instruments, and that we barely have texts from a handful of the churches that must have existed; but as usual, you universalize the silence based on non-evidence. As it is, some of Paul's epistles don't even mention singing. Does that mean the only churches that could sing were the ones he mentioned it to in his letters?

Acts has no reason to mention instruments. You attempt to turn non-declarations on the subject into authoritative doctrine is appalling and disgusting. Are you this stupid? Don't you realize that the same kind of argument is used by atheists to say that Paul doesn't think Jesus lived on earth as a human being, but lived in a spiritual, sublunar realm? Is your agenda so important to you that you're willing to surrender ground to atheists just because someone whacked you with a flute when you were a teenager?

For me, and I suspect for many others, your name-calling and related ridicule only detract from and diminish whatever merit your points may have.

Hey, when your arguments are as bad as yours, Mr. Pharisee -- take whatever excuse you can!

[Daniel Keeran]

Do we all agree that music instrument s were not used in worship in the church or synagogue (except for the temple before 70AD) of the first centuries? If yes, then we need to search for the reasons why this is true.

a. I asked an Orthodox teacher in Rome who said it has been so since the Babylonian captivity.
b. The local church was modeled after the synagogue in organization and worship.
c. We do not find any reference to music instruments in worship in the New Testament.
d. This remained generally true in all denominations until the 19th century.

[jpholding]

Social conditions that applied to the NT church would apply just as readily to the Jewish synagogue, and as I note, even up until much later in history.

However, more than an anecdotal comment from an Orthodox teacher is necessary to support that first point.