Daniel 9 and the Messiah

[Krusader]

""I have examined and searched all the Holy Scriptures, and have not found -the time for the coming of messiah, clearly fixed, except In the words of Gabriel to the prophet Daniel, which are written in the ninth chapter of the prophecy of Daniel."
R. Moses Abraham Levi


These are the words of a Jewish rabbi. I suppose there are some Jews who believe him to be wrong, however it would appear that Daniel 9 does prophesy the exact time when the Messiah would come. Who else but Jesus fulfilled this prophecy?

[Gavriel]

""I have examined and searched all the Holy Scriptures, and have not found -the time for the coming of messiah, clearly fixed, except In the words of Gabriel to the prophet Daniel, which are written in the ninth chapter of the prophecy of Daniel."
R. Moses Abraham Levi


These are the words of a Jewish rabbi. I suppose there are some Jews who believe him to be wrong, however it would appear that Daniel 9 does prophesy the exact time when the Messiah would come. Who else but Jesus fulfilled this prophecy?

I'm predicting this quote is completely fabricated.

Care to provide some information on this quote.

1. What year was this stated (site sources)
2. What town/country was Rabbi Moses Abraham Levi the Rabbi for (site sources)
3. What work did Rabbi Moses Abraham Levi author that contains this quote? (site sources)

[technomage]

I'm predicting this quote is completely fabricated.

Care to provide some information on this quote.

1. What year was this stated (site sources)
2. What town/country was Rabbi Moses Abraham Levi the Rabbi for (site sources)
3. What work did Rabbi Moses Abraham Levi author that contains this quote? (site sources)

Shalom, Gavriel,

The only citation I am able to find is from the book The Messiah of the Targums, Talmuds and Rabbinical Writers, written by F. Kenton Beshore and published in 1971. I have no further information.

However, despite the dubious quality of the quotation, it does bring forth an interesting question. If we take Nehemiah's rebuilding of the Temple as the beginning of the 70 Sevens, it certainly appears possible that Daniel referred to the time about 30-35 of the Common Era. Is there any rabbinical teaching that you know of that explains this?

[Gavriel]

Shalom, Gavriel,

The only citation I am able to find is from the book The Messiah of the Targums, Talmuds and Rabbinical Writers, written by F. Kenton Beshore and published in 1971. I have no further information.

I found this citation but it doesn't shed any more light on the quote.

However, despite the dubious quality of the quotation, it does bring forth an interesting question. If we take Nehemiah's rebuilding of the Temple as the beginning of the 70 Sevens, it certainly appears possible that Daniel referred to the time about 30-35 of the Common Era. Is there any rabbinical teaching that you know of that explains this?

I usually don't like to point to links, but in this case, I will have to because I'm not an expert on Daniel.

Link
Link

However I don't want to get distracted from the fact of this VERY SUSPECT QUOTATION.

[technomage]

I found this citation but it doesn't shed any more light on the quote.

Well, considering that the book was written in 1971 by a Christian evangelist, I do have to express my doubts--Christian "popular-press" scholarship at that time was less than stellar.

I usually don't like to point to links, but in this case, I will have to because I'm not an expert on Daniel.

Link
Link

*nods* I had noticed back when I was a Fundamentalist Christian that the math didn't exactly work. Thanks for giving me the Jewish perspective.

[Menachem]

""I have examined and searched all the Holy Scriptures, and have not found -the time for the coming of messiah, clearly fixed, except In the words of Gabriel to the prophet Daniel, which are written in the ninth chapter of the prophecy of Daniel."
R. Moses Abraham Levi


These are the words of a Jewish rabbi. I suppose there are some Jews who believe him to be wrong, however it would appear that Daniel 9 does prophesy the exact time when the Messiah would come. Who else but Jesus fulfilled this prophecy?

care to provide the source for verification? I am not talking about the book it came out of but the work that this "Rabbi" produced that has this quote. Crusader knowing your ability to misquote, misuse, and otherwise abuse(or mangle) Jewish writings is already well known and alread factored into the equation.

So please provide everything that Gavriel and I have asked so that this can be verified. Knowing you, you wont provide it so dont waste your time defending this, without support, and call it a day on this one.

Shalom,

[yonah_mishael]

""I have examined and searched all the Holy Scriptures, and have not found -the time for the coming of messiah, clearly fixed, except In the words of Gabriel to the prophet Daniel, which are written in the ninth chapter of the prophecy of Daniel."
R. Moses Abraham Levi


These are the words of a Jewish rabbi. I suppose there are some Jews who believe him to be wrong, however it would appear that Daniel 9 does prophesy the exact time when the Messiah would come. Who else but Jesus fulfilled this prophecy?

Besides, the text does not say "The Messiah" המשיח, but "an annointed ruler" משיח נגיד and "an annointed one" משיח (both indefinite). This is not the Messiah for whom we are waiting. This was one of the Ptolemies, as has been commented many times in numerous sources.

Shalom,
Yonah

[Gavriel]

Besides, the text does not say "The Messiah" המשיח, but "an annointed ruler" משיח נגיד and "an annointed one" משיח (both indefinite). This is not the Messiah for whom we are waiting. This was one of the Ptolemies, as has been commented many times in numerous sources.

Shalom,
Yonah

Don't let the Hebrew get in the way of things Yonah, we know Crusader doesn't!

[Krusader]

Don't let the Hebrew get in the way of things Yonah, we know Crusader doesn't!

Wasn't Daniel written in Hebrew AND Aramaic?

[Gavriel]

Wasn't Daniel written in Hebrew AND Aramaic?

This is moot, let's not get distracted from yet another suspect quote you furnished.

I repeat:

Care to provide some information on this quote.

1. What year was this stated (site sources)
2. What town/country was Rabbi Moses Abraham Levi the Rabbi for (site sources)
3. What work did Rabbi Moses Abraham Levi author that contains this quote? (site sources)

[yonah_mishael]

Wasn't Daniel written in Hebrew AND Aramaic?

If you could read Hebrew or Aramaic, you would be able to recognize the difference. Daniel 1 starts:

Daniel 1:1a

בשנת שלוש למלכות יהויקים מלך־יהודה

This is obviously Hebrew to anyone who can read the languages. (1) It uses the Hebrew word שנה in the construct state. שלוש is the Hebrew (not Aramaic) word for 3. Etc. etc. etc.

Daniel 2:4b begins the Aramaic portion of the text:

Daniel 2:4b

מלכא לעלמין חיי אמר חלמא לעבדיך ופשרא נחוא

This is obviously Aramaic because of the suffixed Alef א, which is the definite object marker (Aramaic מלכא malka' "the king" v. Hebrew המלך ha-melekh), because of the masculine plural ending ין- instead of the Hebrew ים-. Etc. etc. etc.

This is where the Aramaic begins. It continues until the end of chapter 7, and chapter 8 again begins with Hebrew:

Daniel 8:1a

בשנת שלוש למלכות בלאשצר המלך

The text continues in Hebrew for the rest of the book.

To recap:

• Hebrew: Daniel 1:1 to 2:4a
• Aramaic: Daniel 2:4b to 7:28
• Hebrew: Daniel 8:1 to 12:13

This is clear to anyone familiar with Hebrew and Aramaic grammar. What does this have to do with the argument on this thread? The passage in question was written in Hebrew and Hebrew only.

Shalom,
Yonah

[Dee Dee Warren]

It is so sad to continue to see the rejection by the Jewish people frankly.

[yonah_mishael]

It is so sad to continue to see the rejection by the Jewish people frankly.

And it's so sad to see that Christians still refuse to actually just open the book and read. The Bible is very clear about what the Messiah is not, and a god-man is surely not what he is to be. Ezekiel 37 describes very well the function of Messiah and some key features of those things that happen when he comes. I would suggest, however, that you read that entire section of Ezekiel's prophecy, for it deals with the times after Messiah comes as well. Rest assured, when the real Messiah comes, we will not reject him.

Yonah

[Dee Dee Warren]

Very sad. However, I don't assume you haven't read the Bible and I won't patronize you in that way. That usually is a sure sign of insecurity.

[yonah_mishael]

Very sad. However, I don't assume you haven't read the Bible and I won't patronize you in that way. That usually is a sure sign of insecurity.

I'm quite serious about this invitation to Ezekiel 37. I lived a while believing that the expectation of the Messiah developed during the time of the Maccabees. It was not until last year that I read Ezekiel 37ff seriously and realized that the Bible really does prophesy the coming of a Messiah. I'm very serious in suggesting this chapter to you. I am quite sure that the majority of people who debate the issue have never really looked at this passage seriously.

Yonah