Just as an observation: the very late tradition of eternal punishment of the very wicked is at total odds with the prophesy of Daniel 12:2 wherein it is indicated that not all will be resurrected..."And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt"...From Dan 12:2 it appears there are three groups...
Announcement
Collapse
Theology 201 Guidelines
This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less
The Parable of the Wheat & the Tares & its Explanation
Collapse
X
-
Originally posted by apostoli View PostJust as an observation: the very late tradition of eternal punishment of the very wicked is at total odds with the prophesy of Daniel 12:2 wherein it is indicated that not all will be resurrected..."And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt"...From Dan 12:2 it appears there are three groups...
Honestly, I do not see any merit in your claim that there are "three groups" under consideration in Daniel 12:2. The "some" who awake to life and the "some" who awake to shame and contempt comprise the two groups forming the "many".
Offhand, to my mind John 5:28,29 is one of the closest parallel passages to Daniel 12:2 in the New Testament (if not the closest). There two resurrections are envisaged. Those who have done good will be raised to life, those who have done evil to condemnation/judgement. We have no indication that there is a third group still sleeping. Also, in Matthew 25:46, though no resurrection is explicitly mentioned (as duly noted by David Powys), two fates are imagined by Jesus at the judgement of nations: "eternal"/age-lasting punishment and "eternal"/age-lasting life. This pattern is consistent throughout the NT. I don't see any room for a third group somewhere in this mix.Last edited by The Remonstrant; 02-17-2014, 12:10 AM.For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>
Comment
-
One thing that is consistent throughout Jesus' teaching is that there are only two options (life or destruction/sheep or goats/narrow or broad path/for or against...) This is important in the context of the gospels, as the pharisees (all or some?) did believe in three options (eternal life, eternal damnation, or a purgatorial stay in hell which would be for the majority)- it seems clear that Jesus corrects this misconception.
Comment
-
Originally posted by AndrewManuel View Postthe pharisees (all or some?) did believe in three options (eternal life, eternal damnation, or a purgatorial stay in hell which would be for the majority)
2) What did they think followed the purgatorial period-- eternal life, eternal damnation, or something else?
Comment
-
I can't remember exactly where I first read about this, although the idea is presented here (with primary sources, although I haven't been able to find them with a google search:
http://books.google.fr/books?id=G45O...hinnom&f=false
(see pages 265-266)
I would add however that Papaioannou has shown (in his book 'The Geography of Hell') that the earliest Jewish references to Gehenna as hell cannot be dated earlier than 70AD. The jewish understanding of Gehenna would therefore come from the old testament reference to the valley of Hinnom, which is depicted as a place of slaughter.
Comment
-
Just to be clear, from the Jewish point of view, the three options would be:
-going to directly to heaven.
-going to hell, being purged of sin (in less than 12 months) and then going to heaven.
-staying in hell (interestingly page 265 of the book I cited states that 'annihilation' was reserved for those who were too wicked even for hell (so it was seen as far worse a fate, just as capital punishment is in modern societies today)
Comment
-
Ok, found some of the source material- http://halakhah.com/pdf/moed/Rosh_HaShanah.pdfLast edited by AndrewManuel; 02-17-2014, 03:54 PM.
Comment
-
Originally posted by AndrewManuel View PostI can't remember exactly where I first read about this, although the idea is presented here (with primary sources, although I haven't been able to find them with a google search:
http://books.google.fr/books?id=G45O...hinnom&f=false
(see pages 265-266)
I would add however that Papaioannou has shown (in his book 'The Geography of Hell') that the earliest Jewish references to Gehenna as hell cannot be dated earlier than 70AD. The jewish understanding of Gehenna would therefore come from the old testament reference to the valley of Hinnom, which is depicted as a place of slaughter.
Comment
-
Another observation: Chaff is the husk of a wheat grain and generally considered useless. Hence it was burnt. So we seem to have a purgatorial analogy whereby the outer shell is discarded whilst the purity of the seed is preserved. cp Mt 3:11-13. Notice that whilst JB baptised with water, but he that cometh baptised with the Spirit and fire...
Comment
-
If Matthew 3:11-13 were the only passage in the Bible speaking of final punishment maybe it could be interpreted that way...
However, in the passage in question, unlike in Matthew 3, we have Jesus' own interpretation. He is unambiguous in his interpretation that the wheat represents the sons of the kingdom, and the tares the sons of the evil one (Matt 13:38). Given this explanation it doesn't seem possible to interpret the tares as simply being the corrupt part of the non-believer, but rather the entire person. I see no way in which this passage could be used to support universalism...
Comment
-
Originally posted by apostoli View PostAnother observation: Chaff is the husk of a wheat grain and generally considered useless. Hence it was burnt. So we seem to have a purgatorial analogy whereby the outer shell is discarded whilst the purity of the seed is preserved. cp Mt 3:11-1[2]. Notice that whilst [John the Baptist] baptised with water, but he that cometh baptised with the Spirit and fire...
"Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire." (Matthew 3:10-12 ESV1)
"After me comes he who is mightier than I, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit." (Mark 1:7,8)
"Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." . . . "I baptize you with water, but he who is mightier than I is coming, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire." (Luke 3:9,16,17)
". . . he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, 'He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.'" (John 1:33)
And while staying with them [Jesus] ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, "you heard from me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." (Acts 1:4,5)
As seen above, the Matthean and Lukan texts parallel each other. They are the only two passages I am aware of which refer to a baptism of divine fire in the New Testament. Most likely John the Baptist is continuing his line of thought in contrasting the fate of the righteous from the wicked. The unrighteous will be chopped down as trees bearing rotten fruit and thrown into the fire (Matthew 3:10; Luke 3:9) and burned up as chaff in an unquenchable fire (Matthew 3:12; Luke 3:17). In these texts the fire of divine judgement is in view. Those who are "baptized" in fire, then, are recipients of God's wrath2 (Matthew 3:11; Luke 3:16). The righteous are those who will be baptized with the Holy Spirit. The other texts from Mark, John and Acts speak only of a baptism of the Holy Spirit.3 The absence of the mention of fire in these texts is significant. Believers are baptized in the Holy Spirit, not fire.
Commenting on Matthew 3:11, Charles Quarles writes
The context of John's words demonstrates that baptism with fire was a reference to God's wrath which Jesus would pour out on unrepentant sinners. Immediately before the reference to baptism with fire, John had announced that God would cut down every tree that does not bear good fruit and cast it into the fire (v. 10). Then John warned that the coming Messiah would separate the worthless chaff from the wheat and burn it in an inextinguishable fire (v. 12).
Just as the baptism of fire corresponds to the fate of chaff or tress that do not bear good fruit, so the baptism of the Holy Spirit relates to trees that do bear good fruit and wheat that is useful.4
Notes
1 All Scripture quotations are taken from the English Standard Version (ESV) of the Bible.
2 "[T]he wrath to come" (Matthew 3:7; Luke 3:7; cf. Matthew 23:33).
3 I will leave aside the debate regarding the nature of the baptism of the Holy Spirit in this thread.
4 C.L. Quarles, The Sermon on the Mount: Restoring Christ's Message to the Modern Church (NAC Studies in Bible & Theology) (Nashville, TN: B&H Academic, 2011), p.27.Last edited by The Remonstrant; 02-23-2014, 03:22 AM.For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>
Comment
-
Originally posted by AndrewManuel View PostIf Matthew 3:11-13 were the only passage in the Bible speaking of final punishment maybe it could be interpreted that way...
However, in the passage in question, unlike in Matthew 3, we have Jesus' own interpretation. He is unambiguous in his interpretation that the wheat represents the sons of the kingdom, and the tares the sons of the evil one (Matt 13:38). Given this explanation it doesn't seem possible to interpret the tares as simply being the corrupt part of the non-believer, but rather the entire person. I see no way in which this passage could be used to support universalism...
Comment
-
For an expanded version of the opening post, see the link to my article below: "Purging the Kingdom: Jesus' Interpretation of the Parable of the Wheat & the Tares in Matthew 13".
http://www.afterlife.co.nz/2014/bibl...es-matthew-13/For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>
Comment
-
Originally posted by The Remonstrant View PostFor an expanded version of the opening post, see the link to my article below: "Purging the Kingdom: Jesus' Interpretation of the Parable of the Wheat & the Tares in Matthew 13".
http://www.afterlife.co.nz/2014/bibl...es-matthew-13/
I note in your article an emphasis on the "weeping and gnashing of teeth". I presume we agree, this scenario is a precursor to the final judgement...not a result of the judgement...
Sadly, catechists and other sunday school "christians" fail to notice that in the typical evidentiary quotes there is no mention of fire or punishment. For example: in one of the commonly quoted texts there is merely a reference of those who are thrown into a place of waiting referred to as an "outer darkness".
Comment
-
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostAre the wicked composed of different parts than the righteous?
It is the tares that are said (twice) to be burned ("up" is not in most translations I've checked); the passage says nothing about the wicked being burned, only that they will be cast into the fire (where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth). Does something that's burned up wail and gnash its teeth?
(I said:) "Nothing in this passage can justify the idea that some part of the wicked will survive the burning;"
If the wicked are literally tares, I concede your point.
(I pointed out that Matt 10:28 says that one has the authority to destroy body AND soul in hell, so that his claim about man having two parts meant that the furnace couldn't destroy man completely.)
There is a difference between 'can' and 'will'.
Further, there is no necessary time limit to that destruction; the smoke of their torment, after all, will rise forever and ever [Rev 14:11].
And although you suppose that destruction can extend forever, it can only do that in result, never in process. If the process of destruction never completes, it was never actually a process of destruction -- just a process of torment. The two images of the smoke rising forever and of the cup of wrath never withdrawn assure that the destruction will certainly be complete.
Comment
widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
Comment