Whose Wrath??

[Rdr. Arsenios]

This is an odd-ball question that just occurred to me:

Christ died at the hands of men upon the Cross.
Whose wrath did He suffer?

Did he suffer Satan's wrath?

Or did He suffer God's wrath?

Or both?

Maybe neither? [as in human wrath]

Does the Bible tell us?

Where and how?

Arsenios

[stabalizer]

This is an odd-ball question that just occurred to me:

Christ died at the hands of men upon the Cross.
Whose wrath did He suffer?

Did he suffer Satan's wrath?

Or did He suffer God's wrath?

Or both?

Maybe neither? [as in human wrath]

Does the Bible tell us?

Where and how?

Arsenios

If the princes of this world had known, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory.

Blessings

[seer]

This is an odd-ball question that just occurred to me:

Christ died at the hands of men upon the Cross.
Whose wrath did He suffer?

Did he suffer Satan's wrath?

Or did He suffer God's wrath?

Or both?

Maybe neither? [as in human wrath]

Does the Bible tell us?

Where and how?

Arsenios

God's, Isaiah 53


He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the will of the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief; when he makes himself an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand;

[RanRan]

This is an odd-ball question that just occurred to me:

Christ died at the hands of men upon the Cross.
Whose wrath did He suffer?

Did he suffer Satan's wrath?

The last thing Satan, the accuser of mankind, wanted was for the sins of world to be loaded onto Christ. The Cross defeated Satan. That's why he tempted Christ - to keep Christ from His work and accomplishment.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

If the princes of this world had known, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory.

Blessings

No question of that!

But whose wrath?

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

God's, Isaiah 53


He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the will of the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief; when he makes himself an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand;

Seer, Thank-you. I am really an OT illiterate!

I read through the entire chapter [53], and saw that the afflictions of Christ are seen as the will of the Father [or the Lord, as the Father is therein referred], and to His Own will as well, but nowhere do I see any mention of the wrath of God being upon Him... I am seeing clearly that our afflictions does He take in this, and therein [doubtless unimaginable] suffering, but I do not see here a text that says God is pouring out His wrath upon the Son...

I do not see wrath mantioned at all -

Maybe I missed it?

Is there perhaps another text?

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

The last thing Satan, the accuser of mankind, wanted was for the sins of world to be loaded onto Christ. The Cross defeated Satan. That's why he tempted Christ - to keep Christ from His work and accomplishment.

I agree, RR - And I do not think that Satan knew the death of Christ until it was done... I doubt he knew Him in the temptations after the desert and the 40 day fast... But the question is: Whose wrath was taken out on Christ's holy innocence?

This doubtless has a really easy answer -

I am just too Bozo to get it.

Arsenios

[seer]

Seer, Thank-you. I am really an OT illiterate!

I read through the entire chapter [53], and saw that the afflictions of Christ are seen as the will of the Father [or the Lord, as the Father is therein referred], and to His Own will as well, but nowhere do I see any mention of the wrath of God being upon Him... I am seeing clearly that our afflictions does He take in this, and therein [doubtless unimaginable] suffering, but I do not see here a text that says God is pouring out His wrath upon the Son...

I do not see wrath mantioned at all -

Maybe I missed it?

Is there perhaps another text?

Arsenios

"smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities"

"and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all."

"Yet it was the will of the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief; when he makes himself an offering for sin."

George what do these mean? Why did God harm Christ?

[Rdr. Arsenios]

"smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities"

"and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all."

"Yet it was the will of the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief; when he makes himself an offering for sin."

George what do these mean? Why did God harm Christ?

That He should bear our sins up onto the Cross of pain unto death.
In that deed, He sanctified all the pain of this world that we can suffer...
I see nothing so far about God's wrath being taken out on Him...

Arsenios

[furay]

This is an odd-ball question that just occurred to me:

Not odd-ball at all... a very important question and one people have been asking for 2,000 years.

Christ died at the hands of men upon the Cross.
Whose wrath did He suffer?

Did he suffer Satan's wrath?

Or did He suffer God's wrath?

Or both?

Maybe neither? [as in human wrath]

Does the Bible tell us?

Where and how?

Arsenios

Well, He didn't suffer Satan's wrath - I know that much! Apart from that... hmm, the atonement issue is a prickly pear...

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Not odd-ball at all... a very important question and one people have been asking for 2,000 years.


Well, He didn't suffer Satan's wrath - I know that much! Apart from that... hmm, the atonement issue is a prickly pear...

I think I asked the wrong question in the OP...

Perhaps it should have been asked:

Did Christ suffer wrath on the Cross?

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

George what do these mean? Why did God harm Christ?

Good question - Took a minute for it to sink in...

Was Christ harmed?

Or did He suffer?

Because the outworking of it was that through his suffering He suffered no harm, yes???

As in "He who loves his life shall lose it, and he who despises his life shall find it..."

This is getting interesting...

Arsenios

[furay]

I think I asked the wrong question in the OP...

Perhaps it should have been asked:

Did Christ suffer wrath on the Cross?

Arsenios

Well, He suffered. And I believe He appeased the Father's wrath. But did He suffer the Father's wrath? The million dollar question!

[Howie]

I think I asked the wrong question in the OP...

Perhaps it should have been asked:

Did Christ suffer wrath on the Cross?

Arsenios

Dearest George,

Hope all is well.

The OT Hebrew word translated often as "wrath" actually means "nostrils", "nose", or "place of breath" -- and we know the meaning of "breath" in the OT.

In my reading of the OT (including Isaiah) the concept of God as enraged is a translator's personification. God breath turns “hot” as a consequence of sin. Refer back to Orthodox understanding of sin and I think the meaning of God’s “place of breathing” turning hot makes a bit more sense.

A valid understanding might be that Jesus’ suffering was an inevitable consequence of man's sins, not the action of an enraged creator – inevitable being an important word. When man sins, the consequences are inevitable, the consequences are not punishment in the way we think of punishment in our legal system. When we throw a ball up, it is an inevitable consequence is that it comes down. It is not punishment. We can get bopped on the head if we believe otherwise, but that is not punishment, that is the consequence of our error. When we jump in the water it is inevitable that we get wet, not punishment. When we sin, the consequence of that is also inevitable. If we come to understand the “laws’ of water, we can float on it and travel on it. If we do not live by the “laws” of water, we can drown; the same with gravity.

The concept of Jesus dying at the “altar” of some being’s or some other’s wrath implies punishment and irrational punishment at that. It also brings up serious questions about the trinity if we start discussing God’s wrath as separate from Jesus, doesn’t it? I think that is missing the mark.

All the best.

[Ryokan]

It also brings up serious questions about the trinity if we start discussing God’s wrath as separate from Jesus, doesn’t it? I think that is missing the mark.

All the best.

What I was gonna say.