The Amillennial Optimist Club

[Rusty T]

I threatened to start this club on Tweb chat some time ago (why don't more people use tweb chat?).

I guess I am more interested as using this thread as a sounding board for my own thoughts on eschatology. Okay here goes. . .

I am an amillennialist because I do not believe the "thousand years" mentioned in Revelation 20:2 -3 is a literal time in the future where Christ's kingdom will exist on this earth. "He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and locked and sealed it over him, so that he would deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be let out for a little while."

I know that there are some postmill's who agree with this assessment, but what I like to call "classical" postmillennial arguments would vehemently disagree. Pre-millennialists would disagree, although there may be pre-mill 'flavors' out there of which I am ignorant.

I believe we are currently in the time refered to in Revelation 20:2-3 and the "thousand years" figurative speaks of the time when Satan is restrained from preventing the gospel from being preached to the nations.

I am a preterist because I believe that much of what Christ spoke about in Matthew 24 (and parallel passages) and perhaps Revelation (if it's date can be determined as pre-AD 70) refer to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. However, I am also a futurist in that I believe much has yet to be fulfilled in scripture - namely the Coming of the Lord and the Last Day of judgment.

I am an optimist because I believe in the Second Coming of the Lord. What child of God can not look to that event and not be optimistic about it? Will this world experience a great falling away before the end? Will there be a great persecution such as never seen before? I honestly believe that the case for both of these things is stronger than not - but the fact remains that Christ will appear and we shall see Him.

There shall be one coming of the Lord (not two), there shall be one resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous (not two) and there will be an eternal kingdom with Christ on the throne forever (Daniel 7:13,14).

Come join the Amillennial Optimist Club today!

[Bill the Cat]

Today @ 01:46 PM post located here
tizzidale:

There shall be one coming of the Lord (not two),

He already came once and the Jews misunderstood that He was coming twice, so could it not be understood that His second coming could be misunderstood and actually be 3??

[Rusty T]

I didn't count His incarnation as one. My fault, or maybe not if we are limiting it to the return of Christ. Anyway, I hope I understood what you were trying to point out.

tizzi

[Bill the Cat]

Just pokin fun tizz... I understood!!

[CT292]

Tizzidale,

Your "optimism" doesn't differ from any other Christian will another millennial view. ALL Christians are "optimistic" in the way that you describe regarding Christ's second coming.

But the "optimism" for the Amillennialist usually disappears regarding events in the future on earth prior to the second coming of Christ. There Amills become as pessimistic as Dispensationalists.

There are of course a few exceptions such as Cornelus Venema and R.B. Kuiper. The latter expressed his Amill optimism in the last chapter of his book, For Whom Did Christ Die? by adopting the "Eschatological Universalism" of postmillennialist, B.B. Warfield.

But I am always mystified when Amills want to be "optimistic", but they don't want to be "postmillennial" which is where real optimism lies. For postmills do not need to describe themselves as being "optimistic" since that is already inherent in their system.

One test you can use to see if you are a true "optimist" is if your eschatology will allow the fulfillment of the Great Commission individually and nationally and internationally. If all nations will be baptised and taught the law of God (the commandments of Christ) before the second coming, then you are a true optimist!

And your definition of "preterist" can be more accurately stated as being "Orthodox Preterist" since they maintain the orthodox futurism as expressed in all the historic Christian creeds.

Colin

[Rusty T]

Colin,

Sorry I don't have more time to respond, but I wanted to post this before my wife and I sit down for a movie . . . .

I don't understand postmill's response to me when I say I am optimistic. I didn't mean it in any other way than you correctly assumed. And I am perfectly happy with that. "True" optimism is trust in a future that God is sure to determine. Optimism is the belief that "all things will turn out well." As Christians we should all be optimists in every aspect of our faith in Christ, for "all things work together for the good of them that love the Lord . . . " - including a future that perhaps holds troubled times.

For what are we to do as Christians - faced with lifes normal trials and troubles? I know that in my future lies untold heartache. I will lose loved ones - those who mean so much to me. I will maybe face monetary troubles and perhaps sickness. But looking at THIS future, Christians are told to "be content in all things" and to "count it all joy". Similarly, when looking at a future that may not be we wish it to be, we can be optimistic that it is all the God will have it to be. That is the optimism of amillennialism. That is true optimism.

God bless,

tizzi

[Faramir]

Today @ 01:46 PM post located here
tizzidale:

I threatened to start this club on Tweb chat some time ago (why don't more people use tweb chat?).

I guess I am more interested as using this thread as a sounding board for my own thoughts on eschatology. Okay here goes. . .

Great post Tizzy.

Today @ 01:46 PM post located here
tizzidale:

I am an amillennialist because I do not believe the "thousand years" mentioned in Revelation 20:2 -3 is a literal time in the future where Christ's kingdom will exist on this earth. "He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and locked and sealed it over him, so that he would deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be let out for a little while."

I know that there are some postmill's who agree with this assessment, but what I like to call "classical" post-millennial arguments would vehemently disagree. Pre-millennialists would disagree, although there may be pre-mill 'flavors' out there of which I am ignorant.

I believe we are currently in the time referred to in Revelation 20:2-3 and the "thousand years" figurative speaks of the time when Satan is restrained from preventing the gospel from being preached to the nations.

Funny Tizzy, I call myself a Postmillinialist for almost the same reasons. I think the main difference between our view on the millennium (and I will be the first to admit that I have not fully fleshed out my postmil position) is that I think the millennium is a literal period of time (although the thousand year part is figurative as I believe we are in it and have been since AD 70 at least). And even though I consider Christ reign to be literal, I think it is a spiritual reign and not a physical, earthly reign.

Funny how closely we agree, but choose different labels for ourselves. But I am glad that I can give you the label of brother.

Amen?

Today @ 01:46 PM post located here
tizzidale:

I am a preterist because I believe that much of what Christ spoke about in Matthew 24 (and parallel passages) and perhaps Revelation (if it's date can be determined as pre-AD 70) refer to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. However, I am also a futurist in that I believe much has yet to be fulfilled in scripture - namely the Coming of the Lord and the Last Day of judgment.

I am an optimist because I believe in the Second Coming of the Lord. What child of God can not look to that event and not be optimistic about it? Will this world experience a great falling away before the end? Will there be a great persecution such as never seen before? I honestly believe that the case for both of these things is stronger than not - but the fact remains that Christ will appear and we shall see Him.

There shall be one coming of the Lord (not two), there shall be one resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous (not two) and there will be an eternal kingdom with Christ on the throne forever (Daniel 7:13,14).

Come join the Amillennial Optimist Club today!

Like you I am a preterist, but I agree with CT that the label Orthodox Preterist fits my belief in the final Coming of Jesus and the final judgment.

I also call myself optimistic. Not because I believe in in the Second Coming (although I am optimistic about that ). All Christians believe in that.

I call my millennial position optimistic because I believe that before the Second Coming things on earth will continue to improve (contrary to nearly all pre-mill, most a-mill and even some other post-mill views). When us optimistic post-millers say we are optimistic, it is not about the Second Coming (even though we are also optimistic about that), but about the future of the Human Race before the second coming. This is different from most other millennium views.

[studyhound]

So before I join is there a secret hand shake I have to learn?


Well throw my name in the hat.

Your definition of optimist differs from mine. I lean towards a more post-mill. definition but where the post mill would say the whole will be converted I just see the majority of people becoming christian and the world has a Christian leaning.

The whole parable of the mustard seed, yet there are still creatures that dwell in the protection of the tree.

And preterist wise I like 85% fullfillment. Just the last couple of events are left on the "calendar" The releasing of satan, the resurrection, the Judgement, and eternity are all that is left.

[CT292]

Tizzi,

I think its very good that you are an optimist! I pray that you never lose your biblical optimism. However, my point was that there is far more to being optimistic about than Christ's triumphant return.

Furthermore, why burden your vocabulary with two words (ie. "optimistic Amillennialism"), when only one word will suffice to describe your optimistic eschatology: Postmillennialism? Postmills don't need to constantly use the adjective of "optimism" because postmillennialism is synonymous with optimism! Amillennialism, as traditionally understood, is not.

Even the preterist-Amillennialist, Dr. Jay Adams, whom you would think would be "optimistic" because of his orthodox preterism, is still pessimistic about future events prior to the second coming of Christ. (A recent reprint of his book, The Time is At Hand contains a new Appendix with a response to Rushdoony, a postmillennialist. But I haven't yet seen the new edition of Adams' book).

Traditional Amillennialism is not optimistic, but pessimistic. This is best expressed in David Engelsma's book, Christ's Spiritual Kingdom: A Reformed Defense of Amillennialism.

Engelsma wrote the following:

"Amillennialism’s sober forecast of increasing lawlessness, great apostasy, and persecution of the church by Antichrist..."

"Reformed amillennialism repudiates postmillennialism’s “victory of Jesus Christ in history,” root and branch".

"The ungodly will always dominate. The world's rulers always condemn the cause of the true church. The wicked always oppress the saints. The only hope of the church... is the Second Coming of Christ and the final judgment"

"Satan does have `complete control over the nations of the world"

"Be prepared for the Antichrist!"

"There may be no disagreement among us, that the Antichrist and his assault upon the church are future."

"The future is not bright with the prospect of mass conversions, much less the conversion to Christ of a majority of mankind, as is the dream of postmillennialism."

"the future is dark with the certainty of departure from Christ on the part of many who once professed Him. This is the clear, conclusive doctrine of the apostle in II Thess 2:3"

"The Reformed faith repudiates the notion that the last days hold the prospect of the conversion of the majority of the human race"

"Apostasy and persecution characterize the entire age from Christ’s ascension to His second coming."

Much of what Engelsma writes above is echoed in alot of Amillennial literature. So called "optimistic" Amillennialism is an attempt to borrow the Biblical optimism of postmillennialism while still retaining the label of Amillennialism. But if its Biblical optimism that they want, then they will find more abundance of it in postmillennialism.

Colin (a former Amillennialist)

[Rusty T]

Colin,

I don't like the fact that postmills constantly label amills as pessimists. A pessimist is a person who always expects the worse. But a true Christian looks for the coming of the Lord as that blessed event for which all Creation yearns. We are pilgrims. A pilgrim looks beyond what he can see. I believe (and I believe this through the Bible and how I see the eschatology laid out) that no matter what happens - an improved world or not, my hope lies in Christ.

Your definition of optimistic doesn't differ from mine. It still means the same "Expecting the best", but the object of the optimism is different. I am optimistic about the coming of the Lord and His salvation. And you are optimistic about the world improving leading up to his coming. But do not confuse people about what optimism truly is. ALL Christians should be optimist is my point. And as such I can proudly declare myself an optimistic Amillennialist who happens to be preterist.

God bless

tizzi

[Solly]

"Pessimist" Amiller looks in.

Why "pessimist"? Everyother age has ended badly before the Lord did his thang. Age of innocence, pre diluvian, patriarchal, kingdom, return, second temple; and the Bablyonian captivity of the church could be included. I see no reason to think that the end of the world will not also be accompanied with general bad times before the Lord comes.