Originally posted by whag
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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Dubious Plot and Cast
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. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostWhat "volumes of evidence" that support the "larger context of the whole Christian world-view"? I know of no substantive evidence that does this.
Perhaps you should realize that you're just not mentally equipped to contribute anything of substance here....>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...
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Originally posted by whag View PostI've said much more than "I find it unbelievable," and you know it.
You've also mentioned 'wild speculations' and called it 'implausible', IIRC. But I think my summary was fair: You find the evidence insufficient to overcome your skepticism. It's not believable to you.
Originally posted by whagI responded to your absurd comparison of evolution statistics to the Satanic mutiny, which has no evidence and that you accept without question. Choose to believe it or not, I don't care. I doubt it because I've thought it through.
(1) You responded to what you thought I said, not what I actually said.
(2) You have no idea what I believe about the Satanic rebellion, or why I believe it. So stop making an ass of yourself trying to pick a fight.
(3) You're annoyed at Adrift, CP, Mountain Man, me (I guess) and others because we see you for what you are. Relax, stop trying to 'win' and defeat Christianity in every second post or thread you make. That you can't have a civil discussion with anyone but Shunyadragon speaks volumes, and it ain't flattering to you....>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostDon't know why I'm bothering, but...
I think this cast of characters works fine if we understand the backstory. Here's a backstory that could work. God gave dominion over the earth to mankind, but Adam gave up this dominion through disobedience. The one who deceived Adam inherited his dominion [...]
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostOK. You only cited the part about man.
OK, maybe you are not following the interpretation. It would be before the creation of man. In the fall the Serpent we interpret to be Satan, tempts Eve with his sin to be as God (Genesis 3:5).
Is that right? Is it coherent?
A fallen one from heaven is the basis of the association, "How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning!" Again in the Latin, "quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer."
Isaiah 14 is a taunt against a king of Babylon. I have no idea how you can argue otherwise, the text is very clear:
Isaiah 14:3 When the Lord has given you rest from your pain and turmoil and the hard service with which you were made to serve, 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:
Yes. And that association is the basis of the interpretation regarding the fall of the anointed cherub to become Satan.
Again, those two prophecies are against those two rulers. And because of perceived association and the language, they are interpreted to be also explanations about the fall of the one we call Satan.
It seems to me you have a circular argument. These verses say Satan is a fallen angel, therefore Satan must be a fallen angel, therefore these verses that mention a fallen angel must be about Satan.
There is what the text says and there are interpretations. Two different things.My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/
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Originally posted by MaxVel View PostAfter all these years posting on TWeb, you're still utterly ignorant?
Perhaps you should realize that you're just not mentally equipped to contribute anything of substance here.
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostSo you discount the concept that he wanted to be God or to have that type of authority. The associations are there.
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Originally posted by whag View PostYes, that's the part I doubt. I think that Satan, being in the ineffable presence of God, would know that usurping God was impossible.
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Originally posted by lao tzu View PostOr maybe it's not. That whole "God let him have dominion over the Earth thing" sounds like God making excuses for losing to me.
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Originally posted by MaxVel View PostAfter all these years posting on TWeb, you're still utterly ignorant?
Perhaps you should realize that you're just not mentally equipped to contribute anything of substance here.Last edited by Tassman; 07-04-2015, 12:06 AM.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostSo you're unable to present "volumes of evidence" that support the "larger context of the whole Christian world-view" as you claimed? Thought not! There's very little evidence and none of it's good evidence.
You've already watered down your first claim, and made sure you have a safe avenue of retreat when this claim is shown to be silly too. Can't you ever engage in an actual discussion, or does everything have to be some kind of points-scoring exercise to prove Christians wrong about everything? You really must be insecure about your own beliefs if you have to denigrate others' at every turn....>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...
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Originally posted by whag View PostNot trying to fight just start a discussion. I honestly have no clue why so much has been extrapolated from so little in the verses. Let's start fresh now that MM has left. He wasn't helping.
A belief in spiritual beings (apart from people) seems entirely consistent with the rest of the Christian worldview, and with the beliefs of the bulk of humanity over time, and today.
The Bible does clearly indicate that there are malevolent spiritual beings 'out there', and there is plenty of other testimony to that effect. So it's not based on sketchy evidence, although you may rationally disbelieve, IMHO.
The Bible (I agree) doesn't say a lot on just who those beings are, or how it came about that they exist, but I think it reasonable to accept that they (like everything else) are created beings. So how did they come to be evil? Some kind of rebellion against God, and subsequent fall seems to me the most likely explanation....>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...
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First, there's real forward momentum here, now. Sincerely, thank you for engaging and not resorting to ad hominem, Max.
Originally posted by MaxVel View PostBriefly:
A belief in spiritual beings (apart from people) seems entirely consistent with the rest of the Christian worldview, and with the beliefs of the bulk of humanity over time, and today.
Originally posted by MaxVel View PostThe Bible does clearly indicate that there are malevolent spiritual beings 'out there', and there is plenty of other testimony to that effect. So it's not based on sketchy evidence, although you may rationally disbelieve, IMHO.
The Gadarene demoniac: I'd call this example "sketchy" in the sense that he was a naked man, and men have been known to make a public show of themselves as an expression of obvious mental illness.
Augustine's incubi: I'd perceive a rash of men committing night rapes as "serial rapists," not malevolent beings from another dimension (presumably what's meant by "out there").
Mike Licona's 2nd hand demon testimony (starting at 42:20): If there’s a reason this story is not sketchy, can you tell me?
If the bulk of human testimony in the aggregate is what convinces you, I can understand that. So long as you acknowledge there’s rational reason to doubt (as you did), we’re making stupendous progress in this discussion.
Originally posted by MaxVel View PostThe Bible (I agree) doesn't say a lot on just who those beings are, or how it came about that they exist, but I think it reasonable to accept that they (like everything else) are created beings. So how did they come to be evil? Some kind of rebellion against God, and subsequent fall seems to me the most likely explanation.
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Originally posted by whag View PostFirst, there's real forward momentum here, now. Sincerely, thank you for engaging and not resorting to ad hominem, Max.
Totally in agreement here. It'd be hard to excise that belief from Christianity and have a Christianity that remotely resembles orthodox. Satan, angels, demons are an essential part of the cast.
(I don't think I actually did resort to Ad Hominem - he was trolling - but )
Originally posted by whagI'm not following you here as much on the voluminous "testimony" being evidence, but maybe that's what you meant by my having permission to disbelieve it. Let me rationalize three examples:
The Gadarene demoniac: I'd call this example "sketchy" in the sense that he was a naked man, and men have been known to make a public show of themselves as an expression of obvious mental illness.
Augustine's incubi: I'd perceive a rash of men committing night rapes as "serial rapists," not malevolent beings from another dimension (presumably what's meant by "out there").
Mike Licona's 2nd hand demon testimony (starting at 42:20): If there’s a reason this story is not sketchy, can you tell me?
If the bulk of human testimony in the aggregate is what convinces you, I can understand that. So long as you acknowledge there’s rational reason to doubt (as you did), we’re making stupendous progress in this discussion.
All that said, it can be rational not to believe that evil spirits exist. That would depend on things like what evidence one has, how one has analysed that evidence, what other explanation one has for the evidence, and so on. So it can be rational not to believe.
{Note: this is not the same as 'All disbelief is rational'. Neither belief nor disbelief per se in Christianity and associated beliefs is rationally justified - it depends on how one has approached the evidence }
Originally posted by whag*slow clap* That’s a cogent summation of apologia for the belief and precisely what previous posters failed to accomplish. Thank you for not leaving the thread like I requested! =)Last edited by MaxVel; 07-04-2015, 11:40 AM....>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...
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