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Dubious Plot and Cast

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  • #31
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Angel rebelled against God.
    This belief has a basis. It needs to be addressed. To separate the Bibical claims from interpretations[speculations].
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by whag View Post
      Don't drag this out. It'll get boring fast if you take this approach.
      Like I said to Shuny, we need to separate Biblical claims from [wild] speculations.
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        Like I said to Shuny, we need to separate Biblical claims from [wild] speculations.
        Where have I wildly speculated? The angelic rebellion is a wild speculation?

        It really feels like you're stalling in getting this discussion started. I gave you a very simple summary of what I find unbelievable, which is what you asked for. Now you're implying I'm a wild speculator. Unless you pick up the pace, I'm through here.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          Angel rebelled against God.
          Not just one, but billions. If it were any less, they couldn't tempt and antagonize humanity sufficiently.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            Who is nobody?
            The guy who voluntarily pays way more taxes than he owes because he just loves the efficiency of our government.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by whag View Post
              Not just one, but billions. If it were any less, they couldn't tempt and antagonize humanity sufficiently.
              That seems like faulty logic - that a supernatural being requires any particular ratio (one to one?) to be effective.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                This belief has a basis. It needs to be addressed. To separate the Bibical claims from interpretations[speculations].
                The address the problem of the belief and not speculations.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  The guy who voluntarily pays way more taxes than he owes because he just loves the efficiency of our government.
                  I have not met this nobody. Can you introduce him or her to me. As far as the reference in the previous post by Darth it did not have this meaning. It vaguely referred to everyone else on Tweb. Is this your view of everyone else on Tweb as 'nobody.'
                  Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-23-2015, 11:10 AM.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    That seems like faulty logic - that a supernatural being requires any particular ratio (one to one?) to be effective.
                    Maybe you're right. Maybe a dozen would do the trick. Or maybe it's just hooey.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by whag View Post
                      Yes, but let's not start there. Let's start with premise and characters. Thinking like yours accepts the premise that God created a being who knew God's power, got jealous, and led a mutiny. Very little is said about this but so much has been extrapolated from it. Cut to Jesus' time. The characters from that mutiny inhabit and antagonize random people. Satan later appears to tempt God, the person who made him, taunting him to save himself and offering him earthly kingdoms.

                      As with so many myths and religions, I don't believe this. I think moral and natural evil are better explained in other ways, not through the anthropomorphic story of Satan having a whack attack.
                      Don't know why I'm bothering, but...

                      I think this cast of characters works fine if we understand the backstory. Here's a backstory that could work. God gave dominion over the earth to mankind, but Adam gave up this dominion through disobedience. The one who deceived Adam inherited his dominion, and became (as we find in the New Testament) "the ruler of this world", "the prince of the power of the air", and "the god of this age". By Satan usurping mankind's dominion, direct divine communication between God and man was broken off. Since Satan acquired dominion over the earth legally, it required God to take it back legally (God being a God of order, and not of chaos must follow whatever guidelines he has previously laid out).

                      Jesus came in part to restore that dominion, and to intercede on our behalf. It's possible that Satan did not know the full identity of Jesus (assuming that he was the Messiah, and the Son of God, but not knowing that he was God the Son), but even if he did, he had something precious that he knew that the Messiah wanted back. He didn't understand, and could not foresee that the Christ would suffer the ultimate curse by being mocked, hung on a tree till death, and then buried. So he offered what he possessed, all of the dominion over the world, and the world system, and everything that went with that, if only the Messiah would bow to him (which, incidentally, is what he wanted when he was cast out from heaven if we accept that he is symbolically represented in Isaiah 14:12-14). That said, the Christian is not obliged to accept that anything Satan does is done rationally. Perhaps being cast out of the presence of the almighty made him nuts. He knows he is ultimately defeated, and while fruitless, he attempts to thwart God in any and every way that he possibly can until his final end.

                      Anyways, the above may not be satisfactory to you. May even ask more questions than it answers. But I for one believe it adds plausible background to dubious plots and cast.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by whag View Post
                        Maybe you're right. Maybe a dozen would do the trick. Or maybe it's just hooey.
                        Well, that's the point, Whag - it's either supernatural or it's hooey -- but to put human constraints on a supernatural belief is ... well... hooey.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          I have not met this nobody.
                          Because he doesn't exist.

                          Can you introduce him or her to me.
                          Ummmm... see above.

                          As far as the reference in the previous post by Darth it did not have this meaning. It vaguely referred to everyone else on Tweb. Is this your view of everyone else on Tweb as 'nobody.'
                          No.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                            Don't know why I'm bothering, but...
                            Because you want to defend the plausibility of it. Sometimes I feel like I know your motivation better than ypu do.

                            [
                            Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                            I think this cast of characters works fine if we ounderstand the backstory. Here's a backstory that could work. God gave dominion over the earth to mankind, but Adam gave up this dominion through disobedience. The one who deceived Adam inherited his dominion, and became (as we find in the New Testament) "the ruler of this world", "the prince of the power of the air", and "the god of this age". By Satan usurping mankind's dominion, direct divine communication between God and man was broken off. Since Satan acquired dominion over the earth legally, it required God to take it back legally (God being a God of order, and not of chaos must follow whatever guidelines he has previously laid out).

                            Jesus came in part to restore that dominion, and to intercede on our behalf. It's possible that Satan did not know the full identity of Jesus (assuming that he was the Messiah, and the Son of God, but not knowing that he was God the Son), but even if he did, he had something precious that he knew that the Messiah wanted back. He didn't understand, and could not foresee that the Christ would suffer the ultimate curse by being mocked, hung on a tree till death, and then buried. So he offered what he possessed, all of the dominion over the world, and the world system, and everything that went with that, if only the Messiah would bow to him (which, incidentally, is what he wanted when he was cast out from heaven if we accept that he is symbolically represented in Isaiah 14:12-14). That said, the Christian is not obliged to accept that anything Satan does is done rationally. Perhaps being cast out of the presence of the almighty made him nuts. He knows he is ultimately defeated, and while fruitless, he attempts to thwart God in any and every way that he possibly can until his final end.

                            Anyways, the above may not be satisfactory to you. May even ask more questions than it answers. But I for one believe it adds plausible background to dubious plots and cast.
                            I will ponder this and get back to you.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by whag View Post
                              Because you want to defend the plausibility of it. Sometimes I feel like I know your motivation better than ypu do.
                              I mean, I don't know why I'm bothering engaging with you. Past experience teaches me it's a largely fruitless effort. Maybe I'm nuts as well.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                Well, that's the point, Whag - it's either supernatural or it's hooey -- but to put human constraints on a supernatural belief is ... well... hooey.
                                Supernatural doesn't mean all powerful and omnipresent. You do the exact same thing I do.

                                Comment

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