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Lowering the Confederate Flag - and Wally World

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  • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    Are you relieved at all to find that the Cosby Show has been cancelled on at least some channels because of the controversy he's involved with, or were you just highlighting it to point out what you perceived to be some sort of hypocrisy on some level?
    I wasn't aware of the meme - I saw the article on Cosby, and checked to see that it was still airing. At least - the site I saw made it appear that it's still airing. You can, last I checked a few hours ago, buy the DVDs on Amazon. I wonder if that will continue. I'm conflicted though... I still like Hogan's heroes even though I discovered Bob Crane (?) was a pervert.

    Speaking for myself, the racial/slavery component associated with the Confederate Flag had never been a right or left issue. Before this current brouhaha, as far back as I can remember, just about every opinion of a friend or acquaintance was relatively negative. I think I knew a couple people from the South who did not hold a negative view of the flag, but they weren't chomping at the bit to defend it either. They understood that people took issue with it, and they understood why. Again, the only people I ever knew of (in the North at least) who were pro-Confederate flag (in that, they'd have it hanging in their window or waving off the back of their trucks) were hardcore racists, and hillbillies.
    I knew that there were some idiots who used the Confederate flag as an excuse to be idiots, but I have never seen it as anything other than a tribute to a Southern way of life. The furor of this has really surprised me.

    I used to love Dukes of Hazzard. Watched it pretty religiously as a kid. Growing up, I rarely tuned it in. Thought it was kinda juvenile and silly. I thought the movies sucked. I never thought of the show as explicitly racist. The characters, at least, were not explicitly racist. As a kid growing up in the 70s and 80s, I didn't have any idea what the Stars and Bars were, and had no idea who General Lee was. As an adult I remember thinking that it was a bit peculiar to name a car after a general of the Confederacy, and I did question the use of the flag atop its roof, but I again, I didn't really associate the show with racism.
    Exactly, it was an exaggeration of a characterization of "just some good ol' boys never meanin' no harm".

    The show is about a bunch of Southern hicks. It's probably not so out there to imagine a couple good ol' boys driving around like maniacs, breaking the law, and doing all sorts of mischief. Nor was it unlikely that some small hick town had corrupt cops and mayor. But it was fantasy. I didn't connect it to the larger racial issue that the Confederate flag was associated with. I still don't. And I don't think that's hypocritical. I think the Dukes of Hazzard being cancelled because of this whole situation is ridiculous. I think it is a step too far.
    Yes.

    But I still think it's right that the flag be lowered from state buildings.
    No argument.

    And I think that Walmart should leave it up to their own consciences whether or not they want to stop selling the flag if they think that, long term, it sends the wrong message. I just don't think the Duke Boys ever sent that wrong message.
    I still think it's dumb that (don't remember the exact wording) Walmart "never wants to offend customers". Somebody can always find offense with something, but, yes, they can make a business choice.

    In a weird kind of way, though, they're "discriminating" against those who would want to buy a Confederate flag. (joke, kind of)

    As far a the Cosby Show goes, I also don't think of that as a right or left issue. I mean, it breaks my heart that a guy I always admired growing up is turning out to be a terrible person. I think the question, "is it appropriate to continue to syndicating his show given his past?" is a legitimate one, and one that I think many people regardless of political opinion will be asking.
    Like the Hogan's Heroes thing --- I CAN separate the "actor" from the "character", but it makes the show less enjoyable. I haven't watched an episode in years. I guess same way with Cosby -- I probably wouldn't enjoy it nearly as much, and there are plenty of other shows to watch.

    Just PLEASE don't tell me that Andy Griffith was a bad guy!

    I don't think there'd be any doubt if it turned out that, say, Mr. Rogers turned out to be a serial rapist, that we'd never see his program on the air anymore, but maybe the rules are different for child performers.
    I think that's a little different though - his show was definitely aimed at, and incorporated, small children, so, yeah.....
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      The Americans did not justify their secession with immoral causes...
      Ask the Native Americans about that.
      That's what
      - She

      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
      - Stephen R. Donaldson

      Comment


      • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        Pointing this out get's us nowhere. 'Some' may see racism or slavery in any symbol or flag, but is it justified?!?!? I said 'some' may have a justified complaint against the US for one reason or another. I do not consider it justified to burn either flag. I put flag burning on the same level as book burning.

        You still have ducked the BIG question. Do you understand the fundamental difference between the founding principles, history, and justification for the United States of America, it's flags, and the Confederate States of America and it's flags?!?!?!?
        Do you know what the "Manifest Destiny" theory entailed?
        That's what
        - She

        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
        - Stephen R. Donaldson

        Comment


        • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          ... the war of secession.
          There was no such thing.
          That's what
          - She

          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
          - Stephen R. Donaldson

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
            There was no such thing.
            Sure there was! In Shunyville!
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
              Do you know what the "Manifest Destiny" theory entailed?
              Yes! So what?!?!?! I do not live in the past.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                Are you relieved at all to find that the Cosby Show has been cancelled on at least some channels because of the controversy he's involved with, or were you just highlighting it to point out what you perceived to be some sort of hypocrisy on some level?

                Speaking for myself, the racial/slavery component associated with the Confederate Flag had never been a right or left issue. Before this current brouhaha, as far back as I can remember, just about every opinion of a friend or acquaintance was relatively negative. I think I knew a couple people from the South who did not hold a negative view of the flag, but they weren't chomping at the bit to defend it either. They understood that people took issue with it, and they understood why. Again, the only people I ever knew of (in the North at least) who were pro-Confederate flag (in that, they'd have it hanging in their window or waving off the back of their trucks) were hardcore racists, and hillbillies.

                I used to love Dukes of Hazzard. Watched it pretty religiously as a kid. Growing up, I rarely tuned it in. Thought it was kinda juvenile and silly. I thought the movies sucked. I never thought of the show as explicitly racist. The characters, at least, were not explicitly racist. As a kid growing up in the 70s and 80s, I didn't have any idea what the Stars and Bars were, and had no idea who General Lee was. As an adult I remember thinking that it was a bit peculiar to name a car after a general of the Confederacy, and I did question the use of the flag atop its roof, but again, I didn't really associate the show with racism. The show is about a bunch of Southern hicks. It's probably not so out there to imagine a couple good ol' boys driving around like maniacs, breaking the law, and up to all sorts of mischief. Nor was it unlikely that some small hick town had corrupt cops and mayor. But it was fantasy. I didn't connect it to the larger racial issue that the Confederate flag was associated with. I still don't. And I don't think that's hypocritical. I think the Dukes of Hazzard being cancelled because of this whole situation is ridiculous. I think it is a step too far. But I still think it's right that the flag be lowered from state buildings. And I think that Walmart should leave it up to their own consciences whether or not they want to stop selling the flag if they think that, long term, it sends the wrong message. I just don't think the Duke Boys ever sent that wrong message.

                As far a the Cosby Show goes, I also don't think of that as a right or left issue. I mean, it breaks my heart that a guy I always admired growing up is turning out to be a terrible person. I think the question, "is it appropriate to continue to syndicating his show given his past?" is a legitimate one, and one that I think many people regardless of political opinion will be asking. I don't think there'd be any doubt if it turned out that, say, Mr. Rogers turned out to be a serial rapist, that we'd never see his program on the air anymore, but maybe the rules are different for child performers.
                The series started several years after I moved to Georgia (where the show was set) at a time a full tenth of the county sheriffs had either been indicted or convicted for various charges. Definitely not hard to imagine.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • Originally posted by shunyadragon
                  Yes! So what?!?!?!
                  How was white and black people owning slaves any worse than the wholesale theft of land and resources, and in some cases the murder, of Natives?
                  That's what
                  - She

                  Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                  - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                  I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                  - Stephen R. Donaldson

                  Comment


                  • Bob Crane was a pervert, but, as far as I know, he never raped anyone. I think that's a meaningful difference between Crane and Cosby. Also, The Cosby show seems far more, I guess, personal. If I remember correctly, Cosby actually scripted the early seasons around his real life. Hogan's Heroes is pure fantasy. Maybe if the show was named Crane's Heroes, and it was loosely based on his own real life exploits a stronger case could be made, but still, sex addict versus serial rapist, seems to me that serial rapist is the more concerning issue. Probably over 50% of Hollywood is comprised of sex addicts and perverts. Hopefully it isn't true that there's just as large a number of serial rapists. I remember when Paul Reuben's Pee-Wee's Playhouse stopped airing when he got caught in that adult theater. It certainly wasn't a right/left issue when reruns were pulled. I think there was strong public interest in that decision. Then again, as I said earlier, special rules probably apply to performers associated with children's shows. Interestingly, according to Wikipedia, "Bill Cosby defended Reubens, saying 'Whatever (Reubens has) done, this is being blown all out of proportion.'"
                    Last edited by Adrift; 07-06-2015, 07:06 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                      How was white and black people owning slaves any worse than the wholesale theft of land and resources, and in some cases the murder, of Natives?
                      The ownership of slaves, and racism were founding principles of the Confederate States of America, not the United States.

                      The founding principles of the united States are not related to the principles associated with Manifest Destiny, which are grounded in European Colonialism. Competition for territorial expansion of the USA and European nations ended for the United States in 19th century The United States and other Western countries have moved away from the archaic motivations of Manifest Destiny. I do not live in the past. The Constitution has evolved and changed to a modern world. Again, I do not live in the past.

                      There is by the way a relationship with the history of Christianity and Manifest Destiny.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        The ownership of slaves, and racism were founding principles of the Confederate States of America, not the United States.
                        wow
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • I'm reading through the various declarations of independence by the several Southern states from the United States of America, and found it interesting that Texas' declaration included....

                          "WHEREAS, The Federal Government has failed to accomplish the purposes of the compact of union between these States, in giving protection either to the persons of our people upon an exposed frontier, or to the property of our citizens, and..."

                          Some things never change -- the Federal Government STILL fails in giving protection to our exposed frontier (on our Southern border)

                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                            You can't have it both ways - either the history of the nation represented by the flag denotes its meaning, or it can denote possible meaning - or not. If the former, your case against the battle flag works - but it also means the same case is true of the American flag. If the latter, your case against the battle flag is crap and the American flag has no issue for the same reason.

                            Make up your minds - one way or the other, it cannot be both.
                            The American flag was not created as symbolic of some of the evils that may have later been carried out by the U.S. government., the Confederate flag on the other hand was specifically created as symbolic of the Souths support for and their battle to secure their continued right to enslave a people.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post
                              No, slavery is worse, but it would have died a natural death - I think. But we don't know where this liberal totalitarian central government will end - so it may be worse...
                              So ... slavery is worse but centralized federalism may be worse. Got it.

                              Look at the history of the post-Civil War South. Slavery wasn't going out of style for a very long time. Sharecropping lasted through the 1940s and a great deal of that practice was simply slavery by another name.

                              Slavery is worse than centralized federalism. Full stop.
                              "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                                So ... slavery is worse but centralized federalism may be worse. Got it.

                                Look at the history of the post-Civil War South. Slavery wasn't going out of style for a very long time. Sharecropping lasted through the 1940s and a great deal of that practice was simply slavery by another name.

                                Slavery is worse than centralized federalism. Full stop.
                                +1 all the things

                                Centralized federalism isn't even an action, but a way of organizing actions. In theory it could give everyone their own personal rainbow ponycorn and we'd all live happily ever after. To even compare it to slavery is about as apples and oranges as one can get, but then to compare it to slavery is just what is this I dont even like huh

                                Comment

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