Lowering the Confederate Flag - and Wally World

[rogue06]

Again, are "the liberals" overlooking Robert Byrd's past affiliation with the KKK? Is it not readily acknowledged and lamented?

It was certainly ignored and overlooked when they kept making him Senate Majority Leader.

It certainly was ignored and overlooked when they made him President pro tempore (third in the line of succession to the presidency, after the Vice President and the Speaker of the House) after he was publicly using the n-word during an interview.

[rogue06]

That's a looooong walk, Rogue. If the complaint against removing an actual, physical, in-his-likeness memorial to Nathan Bedford Forrest is that Robert Byrd remained a successful and influential politician half a century after disassociating from the KKK ... that's a pretty thin thread you're weaving.

Forrest was a traitor and a terrorist. That there was ever a memorial to him in the first place is shameful.

We're not just talking about his involvement in the Klan as a kleagle (a "recruiter -- a position reserved for true believers), but also his virulent opposition to the Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act decades later.

And as previously mentioned his repeated use of the n-word in public during a TV interview in 2001 (and was made President pro tempore just a couple months later!).

Saying that there were others like Forrest who were worse does not mean that Byrd gets a free pass.

[rogue06]

I shall never fight in the armed forces with a negro by my side ... Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds.
—Robert C. Byrd, in a letter to Sen. Theodore Bilbo (D-MS), 1946

Byrd distanced himself later in life, but I have to wonder if it was an honest change of heart, or an extreme case of political expediency. I bet, however, there will be no attempt by the left to erase Byrd from history.

I've always had my doubts considering just how deceitful Byrd has been with his membership in the Klan.

Byrd often said that he joined the KKK because it was effective in “promoting traditional American values.” Odd considering that the racist “values” the Klan promoted (Cross Burnings to Lynchings) were anything but American. One has to wonder if Byrd ever attended a cross burning or lynching while he was out celebrating those “traditional American values.”

In 2003, Byrd had the gall to claim that he joined the KKK not because he was a racist, but because the Klan had taken a strong stance against communism. Of course Byrd’s subsequent words and actions demonstrate his racism, but that isn’t all. Back in 1943 the Reds were a valued ally during WWII. In 1943 FDR was still calling Stalin “Uncle Joe” and cheering their advances toward Berlin. It wasn’t until the outbreak of the Cold War in 1947 (4 years after Byrd claims he left the Klan) that it was patriotic to be anti-communist.

In 1952 while running for Congress, Byrd claimed he had left the Klan in 1943 and said that during “the nine years that have followed, I have never been interested in the Klan.” Byrd was lying. A letter he wrote to a KKK Imperial Wizard 3 years after he claimed to have ended his ties with them demonstrates the falseness of Byrd’s claim. In the letter, Byrd wrote: “I am a former kleagle of the Klu Klux Klan in Raleigh County and the adjoining counties of the state. The Klan is in need today as never before and I am anxious to see its rebirth here in West Virginia.” He went on to request aid from Klan leadership in “rebuilding the Klan in the realm” of West Virginia. Yup, sounds like he has absolutely no “interest in the Klan” alright.

Later, as you've noted in an earlier post, in a letter written on the subject of desegregation of the armed forces in the 1940’s, after Byrd supposedly renounced his KKK membership, he vowed that he would never fight in the military “with a Negro by my side. Rather I should die a thousand times and see old glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the darkest specimen of the wilds.” Uh-huh.

20 years after the Democratic Senator described African-Americans as “race mongrels” he stood on the U.S. Senate floor for over 14 hours filibustering to the bitter end against the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

And, as I've repeatedly pointed out in this thread already, Byrd still felt comfortable enough using the n-word that he did so twice in public during a TV interview in 2001. One can legitimately wonder how often he used it in provate if he could use it without thinking in public.

[Sam]

We're not just talking about his involvement in the Klan as a kleagle (a "recruiter -- a position reserved for true believers), but also his virulent opposition to the Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act decades later.

And as previously mentioned his repeated use of the n-word in public during a TV interview in 2001 (and was made President pro tempore just a couple months later!).

Saying that there were others like Forrest who were worse does not mean that Byrd gets a free pass.

Again, who is giving Byrd a "free pass"? Who here has said that memorials to Robert Byrd should continue to exist? Who is excusing his opposition to the CRA and VRA? As far as I'm personally concerned, Byrd and Thurmond are in the same boat.

Neither, however, can be compared to Forrest. One does not excuse Hitler by claiming that, well, Patton was a bit of a jerk, too, you know.

[rogue06]

Byrd was give a free pass when he was made Senate Majority Leader.

Byrd was given a free pass when he was made President pro tempore.

Nobody ever demanded that he be sent to sensitivity training

Nobody ever demanded that he be censured

Nobody ever demanded that he be stripped of his leadership roles

Nobody ever demanded that he be run out of office

[seer]

Why thanks, yes, I will have another heaping helping of schadenfreude.

It's morning in America.

I just hope I'm not sent to the reeducation camp that you work at. I suspect that you will be most cruel and wicked.

[Teallaura]

If that is in response to lao tzu's flag animation then I couldn't agree with you more.

It is.

[stfoskey15]

I'm just going to say that as a southerner who supports economic and cultural growth of my region of the U.S.,* I do not see the point of flying a flag from a failed secession attempt. I feel that the values supported by the Confederacy (eg. white supremacy, very weak central government, semi-aristocratic culture) are often quite out of line with my values. I do not wish to viewed as supporting Confederate values, which I would be perceived as doing, if I were to fly the Confederate flag. I imagine southern independence would have slowed national economic growth and led to continued slavery and racism, which, in my opinion, are bad things.

At the same time, I feel others should be free to fly the Confederate flag if they so choose, as I support freedom of speech. As for flying it over government buildings, I disapprove, because the Confederacy was a rebel state that no longer exists. It would be like flying the flag of the Bavarian Soviet Republic over government buildings in Munich.

*Granted, I want economic and cultural growth for all, but sometimes it's easier to start at home.

[JimL]

Yes, the liberals are always anxious to overlook the sins of their own. Paula Dean, however ---- no forgiveness. (That's of course, because she said the word "butter" too many times)

Apples and oranges CP. It wasn't liberals overlooking the sins of R. Byrd. Byrd was a Dixiecrat from W. Virginia, aka Democrat in name only. Its not as though he had a liberal constituency, he was elected by a conservative constituency from W. Virginia. Byrds sins were never overlooked by the democratic party, the real democratic party, they were forgiven only after he recognised the fault in himself and changed his ways. That change is evident in the change in his voting patterns in the early 60's to the late 90's. Paula Dean is a completly different story, unlike an elected official she couldn't depend on a conservative electorate to keep her in business once her views were out there, and it wasn't in the interests of her employer to do so. But again your confusing the issue. The Confederate Flag is not a person that can change what it stands for, the purpose for which it was created. It doesn't matter if some choose now to rationalize the Flags meaning into something that it was not meant to be, to those whose ancestors were believed to be less than human, and treated as such, its true meaning will never be erased from their minds. The war is long over, admittedly the cause for which the south fought it was wrong, so either righteously take it down from the state houses, or time, to your shame, will do it in your stead.

[Cow Poke]

Apples and oranges CP.

Don't forget the walnuts and green jello!

[Tassman]

I'm conflicted on this.

I'm inclined to agree that the Confederate Flag on the grounds of the South Carolina Capitol should be lowered for good. But I think this is probably (in my own situation) in sympathy to the incredibly graceful way in which the members and friends of Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church have responded to the violence visited upon them by a hateful young racist.

On the other hand, I think it's ridiculous that Walmart has made an announcement that they are pulling anything Confederate Flag related. The Confederacy is part of our History. Texas even requires a college course (for those attending college) on US History which includes a thorough treatment of the War of Northern Aggression.

"We never want to offend anyone with the products that we offer" -- how is that even possible? How is it possible to "never offend anyone"?

Anyway, POLITE discussion, please, on your opinion about symbols of the Confederacy being removed from public view.



Disclaimer - I have never felt inclined to fly - or even own - a Confederate flag, and I don't own any articles of clothing that use the Confederate flag as an element of design or... It just seems like knee-jerk reaction to remove symbols of part of our history because they offend somebody.

Of course it should be lowered for good, why is there event discussion about it? The history it stands for is the attempt to retain slavery, nothing more and nothing less, and its retention is an ongoing symbol of racial inequality.

[Cow Poke]

Of course it should be lowered for good, why is there event discussion about it?

Ummm... because this is a DISCUSSION board?

The history it stands for is the attempt to retain slavery, nothing more and nothing less, and its retention is an ongoing symbol of racial inequality.

Well, then -- let's close the thread!!!!!

[fm93]

Of course it should be lowered for good, why is there event discussion about it? The history it stands for is the attempt to retain slavery, nothing more and nothing less, and its retention is an ongoing symbol of racial inequality.

From this article about reactions to the flag:



Aside from the fact that it arose from indisputably bad intentions and is still used by some for such intentions, it causes genuine, deep pain to people. Those reasons are good enough for me.

[Cow Poke]

Aside from the fact that it arose from indisputably bad intentions and is still used by some for such intentions, it causes genuine, deep pain to people. Those reasons are good enough for me.

So, you're taking yours down?

[Cow Poke]

Just for the record, Taz - as pointed out in the OP, I have never bought, flown, owned, borrowed, used.... a Confederate flag.

Heck, I never even had a Confederate flag belt buckle or Dukes of Hazard car!