Let's talk about "bad breath"

[Faramir]

This thread is a “spin-off” of another thread located here.

In this thread the question was asked by a member who shall remain nameless (hint: this member is the one who started the thread), regarding how Nero fit the description of the Man of Lawlessness, specifically in regards to 2 Thes. 2:8 which states that he (the Man of Lawlessness) will be destroyed by Jesus Breath.

I was all eager, willing and able to discuss this on that thread. However, having dealt with this unnamed member (hint: his initials are eschaton) for several pages, and having him evade, dodge, and otherwise ignore my substantive points, I wanted some assurance from him that if I offered a substantive response to his question that he would not continue to evade, dodge, and otherwise ignore this as well; that he would actually address my points this time. Well no name refused. It was his thread, so I could not make him follow a perfectly reasonable request.

Well, this is my thread. And I am making the very reasonable (and since this is my thread, enforceable) request that only matters dealing with 2 Thes. 2:8 be discussed. In other words, please keep this on topic.

Now for those of you who have not been following the other thread, and have no desire to read through 12 plus pages of evasion and posturing, I will give a little back ground.

It is my position that the “Man of Lawlessness” (MoL) in 2 Thes. 2 is (or was) the Roman Emporor Nero. I will give a very brief background on that, but do not want to debate that in this thread except for whether or not Nero fits verse 8.

Let us look at the relevant text:

2 Thes. 2:3-12

3Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Let us start with verse 7 because that gives us a big clue. Two words jump out. Already and now. The plain reading of this text demands that whoever this man of lawless is, and whoever the restrainer is they must have been alive and present in the first century. So that puts an extreme limit on who that could be. There are some who say it can not be a first century person (**cough** eschaton **cough**) because no first century person meets all the other criteria. The problem is that such people “conveniently ignore” the time texts in verses 6-7. The only viable options are that this was fulfilled in the first century or verses 6-7 are wrong. Being that I hold to inerrant scripture, the second option is not viable to me.

So we have a first century individual. So we MUST look to see what first century individual(s) fit the bill.

Let us start with the date the text was written (for a reference to when “now” was). Most conservative scholars agree that the text was written during the reign of Claudius. The name Claudius means “restrainer” so Claudius is the most obvious choice for the restrainer.

The next obvious question is who was Claudius restraining. If we answer that, we will know who the man of lawlessness is. Well, when Claudius died, this left his throne open to Nero. With Claudius Nero was not emperor, with Claudius “removed” Nero became Emperor. So Nero is the most obvious choice for “the man of lawlessness”.

For a more detailed article please check this article by Mark Alvis (where I also got a lot of the information on v. 8).

Again, this is just for background. I do not want to debate the above, in this thread, at least not until there has been ample discussion on the specifics of verse 8. Not on to the meat of this thread, 2 Thessalonians 2:8 as it applies (or does not apply) to Nero:

Let us (as always) start with the relevant text:

2 Thes. 2:8

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.

The question is, “How was Nero killed with the breath of Jesus”?

To answer that question, we need to asked two other questions:

1 What does Paul mean by “Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth”?

2 How did Nero die?


For the first question we will look to scripture, and for the second question we will look to history? If scripture describes someone’s death bye devine breath, and this matches up with what history tells us of Nero’s death, then I would say we have a match. That sounds like a tall order. But I think I am up to the task.

First I will look at scripture to see what could be meant by “kill with the breath of his mouth” means.

For space sake, I will assume that all agree that there is scriptural support for the divinity of Christ.

Next I will look for other instances of people being killed with breath. Is there such an instance in scripture? (Whould I be asking if there was not?) The passage is in 2 Samuel 22. The passage is long, so I will only reproduce the most relevant sections here for space sake, but I strongly encourage the reader to look up the hole verse for context:

2 Sam. 22, selected verse

1

2 Sam. 22, selected verse

And David spoke to the LORD the words of this song on the day when the LORD delivered him from the hand of all his enemies, and from the hand of Saul. 2He said,

"The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer,
3my God, my rock, in whom I take refuge,
my shield, and the horn of my salvation,
my stronghold and my refuge,
my savior; you save me from violence.
4I call upon the LORD, who is worthy to be praised,
and I am saved from my enemies.
…
8"Then the earth reeled and rocked;
the foundations of the heavens trembled
and quaked, because he was angry.
9Smoke went up from his nostrils,
and devouring fire from his mouth;
glowing coals flamed forth from him.
…
16Then the channels of the sea were seen;
the foundations of the world were laid bare,
at the rebuke of the LORD,
at the blast of the breath of his nostrils.

17"He sent from on high, he took me;
he drew me out of many waters.
18He rescued me from my strong enemy,
from those who hated me,
for they were too mighty for me.
19They confronted me in the day of my calamity,
but the LORD was my support.
…

28You save a humble people,
but your eyes are on the haughty to bring them down.

Now, scripture tells us that this was a prayer of thanksgiving given by David when he was delivered from his enemies, and Saul is mentioned specifically by name (v. 1). Paul starts off by giving credit where credit is due for all things, God (vv. 2-5). So no matter the means God used, it was ultimately God Who delivered the victory.

In this passage, David tells “how” God did this vv. 8-16. One of the things David mentions is the “devoring flame” from God’s mouth (v. 9) and a “blast of breath from His nostrils” (v. 16). Sound familiar? This is the same way that Paul says that Jesus will destroy the MoL.

Now this is a song by David praising God for an already past victory. So we need to look at the historical record to see what happened. Of course we have the historical record of scripture to tell us how David’s enemies were destroyed, and specifically how Saul was killed. There is no record of God physically coming down and breathing on anyone causing them to die, so we can rule out the “wooden literal” interpretation right away.

And since Saul was mentioned by name, and since we have a record of his death, let us look and see how Saul actually died.

1 Chron. 10:4

4Then Saul said to his armor-bearer, "Draw your sword and thrust me through with it, lest these uncircumcised come and mistreat me." But his armor-bearer would not, for he feared greatly. Therefore Saul took his own sword and fell upon it.

Saul did NOT die as a result of some visible manifestation of God’s breath (but I have no doubt, God was in control of this and all events). Saul fell on his own sword. He committed suicide.

That leads us to the next question. How did Nero die? He stabbed himself in the neck.

Coincidence? I think not. I think Paul was fully aware of the passage in 2 Samuel where David declared that God destroyed Saul with His breath. I think Paul was aware of the method of Saul’s death. I think he was fully aware that Jesus was God. I think he was fully aware that Nero would die by suicide. What better way to describe the historical events that were to shortly take place?

I welcome all discussion (even from what’s his name) on this as long as the comments are on topic and address the points I raised.



Thanks,



:sig:

[eschaton]

This thread is a “spin-off” of another thread located here.

In this thread the question was asked by a member who shall remain nameless (hint: this member is the one who started the thread), regarding how Nero fit the description of the Man of Lawlessness, specifically in regards to 2 Thes. 2:8 which states that he (the Man of Lawlessness) will be destroyed by Jesus Breath. etc....

I was all eager, willing and able to discuss this on that thread. However, having dealt with this unnamed member (hint: his initials are eschaton) for Thanks,

:sig:

Hi Faramir,

I checked several places on the web for the meaning of the name Claudius. They all indicated crippled or lame.

The boy's and girl's name Claude is pronounced klawd. It is of Latin origin, and its meaning is "lame." Roman clan name. Claudius was the Roman emperor who succeeded Caligula. Saint Claudius (third century) was a Roman tribune who converted to Christianity. Popular in France (where it is sometimes used as a girl's name) due to the fame of seventh-century Saint Claude of Besançon. Claud is the Anglicized form. Painter Claude Monet; composer Claude Debussy; Congressman Claude Pepper; actor Claude Rains.

So I looked in a Latin dictionary and I found this.

http://catholic.archives.nd.edu/cgi-...aud&ending=ius

claud ius

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

claudeo -ere and claudo -ere [to limp , halt, be lame].

claudicatio -onis f. [a limping].

claudico -are [to limp , be lame]. Transf., [to incline, be deflected; to halt, waver].

Claudius (Clodius) -a -um [the name of two Roman gentes]; esp. [of the emperor Claudius (10 B.C.-A.D. 54)]. Adj. Claudianus -a -um , Claudialis -e.

claudo (1) (cludo) claudere clausi clausum [to close , shut up, make inaccessible]; of military positions, [to blockade, invest]; of prisoners, etc., [to shut in, confine]. Transf., [to conclude]; 'agmen', [to bring up the rear]. Hence partic. clausus -a -um, of character, [close, reserved]; n. as subst., [an enclosed place].

claudo (2) = claudeo; q.v.

claudus -a -um [limping , lame]. Transf., [crippled, defective]; poet., 'carmina alterno versu', [elegiac verse].

The claudo might kinda sorta fit, but the Greek word is this:

2722. katecho, kat-ekh'-o; from G2596 and G2192; to hold down (fast), in various applications (lit. or fig.):--have, hold (fast), keep (in memory), let, X make toward, possess, retain, seize on, stay, take, withhold.


It really seems a stretch at best, but I don't see anywhere else in the Bible where caesar is spoke of in such a way.

Certainly you can make whatever scripture links you want, but my study Bible gives the traditional ones"

Isa 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

Rev19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

I don't see where either of these indicate Nero stabbing himself in the neck, and I don't know of anybody in the early church who did either. According to Augustine those who believed Nero in connection with 2nd Thess 2 believed he would come back to life as a future antichrist.

[Bill the Cat]

Far, it is also interesting to note that the breath of Jesus conferred the Holy Spirit on the Disciples, which is who I believe the restrainer to be.

Also of note, it is said in the verse that the MoL would be destroyed AT Jesus' coming (vs8), which IIRC, you put at 70 AD. Nero died in 68 AD, so that eliminates him completely.

Also conspicuously lacking is where the MoL "takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God" which Nero did not do.

[Faramir]

Hi Faramir,

I checked several places on the web for the meaning of the name Claudius. They all indicated crippled or lame.

The boy's and girl's name Claude is pronounced klawd. It is of Latin origin, and its meaning is "lame." Roman clan name. Claudius was the Roman emperor who succeeded Caligula. Saint Claudius (third century) was a Roman tribune who converted to Christianity. Popular in France (where it is sometimes used as a girl's name) due to the fame of seventh-century Saint Claude of Besançon. Claud is the Anglicized form. Painter Claude Monet; composer Claude Debussy; Congressman Claude Pepper; actor Claude Rains.

So I looked in a Latin dictionary and I found this.

http://catholic.archives.nd.edu/cgi-...aud&ending=ius

claud ius

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

claudeo -ere and claudo -ere [to limp , halt, be lame].

claudicatio -onis f. [a limping].

claudico -are [to limp , be lame]. Transf., [to incline, be deflected; to halt, waver].

Claudius (Clodius) -a -um [the name of two Roman gentes]; esp. [of the emperor Claudius (10 B.C.-A.D. 54)]. Adj. Claudianus -a -um , Claudialis -e.

claudo (1) (cludo) claudere clausi clausum [to close , shut up, make inaccessible]; of military positions, [to blockade, invest]; of prisoners, etc., [to shut in, confine]. Transf., [to conclude]; 'agmen', [to bring up the rear]. Hence partic. clausus -a -um, of character, [close, reserved]; n. as subst., [an enclosed place].

claudo (2) = claudeo; q.v.

claudus -a -um [limping , lame]. Transf., [crippled, defective]; poet., 'carmina alterno versu', [elegiac verse].

The claudo might kinda sorta fit, but the Greek word is this:

2722. katecho, kat-ekh'-o; from G2596 and G2192; to hold down (fast), in various applications (lit. or fig.):--have, hold (fast), keep (in memory), let, X make toward, possess, retain, seize on, stay, take, withhold.


It really seems a stretch at best, but I don't see anywhere else in the Bible where caesar is spoke of in such a way.

Certainly you can make whatever scripture links you want, but my study Bible gives the traditional ones"

Isa 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

Rev19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

I don't see where either of these indicate Nero stabbing himself in the neck, and I don't know of anybody in the early church who did either. According to Augustine those who believed Nero in connection with 2nd Thess 2 believed he would come back to life as a future antichrist.

In case you did not notice. I said I provided the information on Claudius and Nero for "background" information. I specifically asked that discussion on this thread be limited to v. 8.

You had your chance to discuss this in the other thread, but would not agree to my simple and fair conditions.

This is my thread. My rules. Please limit your discussion to v. 8 and whether or not Nero fits the being killed by the breath of Christ.

This is exactly why I did not want to dialog with you in your thread. You keep changing the subject. But I will make a deal with you. If you will address the points I made regarding Nero fitting verse 8. I will answer your question about Claudius.

Other wise. stay off my thread.

You get one free pass. Your next post that does not address the topic will be reported.

[eschaton]

In case you did not notice. I said I provided the information on Claudius and Nero for "background" information. I specifically asked that discussion on this thread be limited to v. 8.

You had your chance to discuss this in the other thread, but would not agree to my simple and fair conditions.

This is my thread. My rules. Please limit your discussion to v. 8 and whether or not Nero fits the being killed by the breath of Christ.

This is exactly why I did not want to dialog with you in your thread. You keep changing the subject. But I will make a deal with you. If you will address the points I made regarding Nero fitting verse 8. I will answer your question about Claudius.

Other wise. stay off my thread.

You get one free pass. Your next post that does not address the topic will be reported.

Sorry, but I thought you meant this verse 8.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

I thought you gave some links of your own? Okay, I'll stay out of it from here on out. Enjoy.

[Faramir]

Far, it is also interesting to note that the breath of Jesus conferred the Holy Spirit on the Disciples, which is who I believe the restrainer to be.

The Claudius connection is not really necessary for Nero to be the MoL. I believe he was, but it is not necessary, there is plenty of other reasons (if you check the link I provided I think that the authour considered Michael to be the restrainer). Plus I don't really want to discuss the restrainer in this thread, I just put that in for background. Maybe we can pick that up in another thread in the future. I rather keep this thread on a narrow topic.

But your reference to the breath of Jesus as confiring the Holy Spirit is interesting. Can you give me a verse and say why (or if) you conect that to 2 Thes. 2:8?

Also of note, it is said in the verse that the MoL would be destroyed AT Jesus' coming (vs8), which IIRC, you put at 70 AD. Nero died in 68 AD, so that eliminates him completely.

You recall incorrectly. AD 70 (not 70 AD :poke) was the "culmination" of Christ coming in judgment. It was not a one time event. The judgment took place over a period of time known as the Jewish Wars, which began shortly before Nero died. (If you would have read the link you would know that )

Also conspicuously lacking is where the MoL "takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God" which Nero did not do.

1. Do you really think I have not considered that?
2. Did you not see where I wanted to limit this thread to v. 8



Thank you for you input. But I really want to focus on v. 8 in this thread. Does Nero meet the sepcific qualification, for verse 8 and/or is there any major flaw in my argument in the OP of this thread (not the background info, but the following argument).

I know you will respect this. Thanks.


Maybe we can discuss the rest of this passage in another thread.

[Faramir]

Sorry, but I thought you meant this verse 8.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

I thought you gave some links of your own? Okay, I'll stay out of it from here on out. Enjoy.

I did mean that verse 8. You were asking about the restrainer which is v. 6-7.

I really want you to discuss v. 8. Please don't go away (unless you can't address the points I raised).

As you can see. I am quite capable of civil dialog. I did so with Bill the Cat. (the dispensational futurist that he is even). I also told him the same thing I told you. I do NOT want to discuss the nature of the restrainer in this thread.

Do you think you can stay focused on v. 8? I know Bill the Cat can. Maybe you can learn something from him. I have serious disagreements with him on eschatology. But I have great respect for his skill as a debater.

Many opponents have stated that I do not answer them because I am somehow "afraid" of him. Bill the Cat has never said that. But he is one of the few opponents I am afraid of (but only a little, don't let that get to your head Bill).

I know that he is quite capable of addressing my arguments, and finding flaws in them (not percieved flaws that he asserts, but real "Dang, I never thought about it that way" flaws.).

In other words, he challenges me.

You on the other hand merely entertain me with your blustering and posturing. I enjoy both, but I preferr to be challenged. So, are you going to try to challenge me, or are you going to continue to be evasive and blustering?

Edit to add: I do want to address a few things you said. I missed this in your first post and it was on topic, so I want to address it:

I don't see where either of these indicate Nero stabbing himself in the neck, and I don't know of anybody in the early church who did either. According to Augustine those who believed Nero in connection with 2nd Thess 2 believed he would come back to life as a future antichrist.

If you would have read my post I said we were to match up history and scripture. Scripture tells us that David described the slaying of his enemy, Saul, as an act of God's breath (among other things). Scripture AND History tell us that Saul died by suicide. History tells us that Nero also died by suicide.

These are all facts. Do you deny any of these facts? (hint: this is a yes or no question)

Also I want to address this satement:

I thought you gave some links of your own?

Yep I sure did. I never said links in and of themselves were against the rules. They are not. But links should be used to support an argument that or give additional background to an argument that you post. When there is no argument posted, and only links. That is when it becomes a violation of TWeb. I hope I cleared that up.

[Bill the Cat]

The Claudius connection is not really necessary for Nero to be the MoL. I believe he was, but it is not necessary, there is plenty of other reasons (if you check the link I provided I think that the authour considered Michael to be the restrainer). Plus I don't really want to discuss the restrainer in this thread, I just put that in for background. Maybe we can pick that up in another thread in the future. I rather keep this thread on a narrow topic.

Understood.

But your reference to the breath of Jesus as confiring the Holy Spirit is interesting. Can you give me a verse and say why (or if) you conect that to 2 Thes. 2:8?

The Breath of Jesus is onlt mentioned one other time in the entire NT...

Scripture Verse:

John 20
22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

In relation to vs.8 of 2 Thess 2, I believe what will ultimately destroy the MoL is the Holy Spirit at the return of Jesus for His people

You recall incorrectly. AD 70 (not 70 AD :poke) was the "culmination" of Christ coming in judgment. It was not a one time event. The judgment took place over a period of time known as the Jewish Wars, which began shortly before Nero died. (If you would have read the link you would know that )

The interesting thing is that the Jews were successful for a time before Vespian came in and spanked them good. Hardly judgement if you ask me

1. Do you really think I have not considered that?

Well, you are still a Preterist, so...

2. Did you not see where I wanted to limit this thread to v. 8

Yes, but that verse directly spells out what would happen to the MoL identified in vs 8. It can not be ignored, as it spells out a specific action that the man you are trying to identify in vs 8 would do. IMO, it is more important to identify the MoL from vs 3 than vs 8... but I digress. My apologies

Thank you for you input. But I really want to focus on v. 8 in this thread. Does Nero meet the sepcific qualification, for verse 8

No. The appearance of Jesus' coming does not mesh with Nero's death. Nero comitted suicide because his peers were going to kill him in his unpopular political and military weakness, not by the existence of the Jewish Wars. Nothing in Nero's death accounts can parallel to the MoL in vs.8 other than they both die.

and/or is there any major flaw in my argument in the OP of this thread (not the background info, but the following argument).

I know you will respect this. Thanks.


Maybe we can discuss the rest of this passage in another thread.

Sounds good to me.

[Faramir]

Understood.

Thanks.

The Breath of Jesus is onlt mentioned one other time in the entire NT...

Scripture Verse:

John 20
22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

In relation to vs.8 of 2 Thess 2, I believe what will ultimately destroy the MoL is the Holy Spirit at the return of Jesus for His people

Very interesting. And assuming the rest of your eschatology is correct (which it is not) I would say that would be a valid consideration.

And I am asking for the same sort of consideration here. Assuming that Nero does meet all the other qualifies of MoL, does he also fit the dying by Jesus breath.

The interesting thing is that the Jews were successful for a time before Vespian came in and spanked them good. Hardly judgement if you ask me.

Well, I would hardly call them successful. But they certainly thought they were. And ther were not "spanked" yet, this is true. Plus, the apparent "success" was predicted in Luke "When you see the city surrounded by armies, flee to the hills" (paraphrase). The armies had to come and leave so the belivers could get out (which they did). And very shortly thereafter Nero died. So it is the beginning of the coming judgment that culminated with the destruction of the temple.

Well, you are still a Preterist, so...

Well you are still a futurist, but I still give you credit where credit is due. :nana:

Yes, but that verse directly spells out what would happen to the MoL identified in vs 8. It can not be ignored, as it spells out a specific action that the man you are trying to identify in vs 8 would do. IMO, it is more important to identify the MoL from vs 3 than vs 8... but I digress. My apologies

Actually that verse is much easier to address than v. 8. Plus I have reasons to focus on v. 8 (mostly to try to get eschaton to focus. I think if he could do that he would be a much better debater).

No. The appearance of Jesus' coming does not mesh with Nero's death. Nero comitted suicide because his peers were going to kill him in his unpopular political and military weakness,

Not very dissimilar to the circumstances surounding Saul's death, which was also atributed to the "breath" of God.

not by the existence of the Jewish Wars.

Come now. Do you think God did not have (or at least might have) a hand in all that as retribution against Nero for his persecution of the Church?

David said that God killed his enemy (Saul being the only one named) with the breath of His nostril. We know Saul died by suicide. If the OT can use this laguage to describe suicide, why not the NT?

Nothing in Nero's death accounts can parallel to the MoL in vs.8 other than they both die.

Well if "death by breath" is equated to suicide (and I think it reasonable to think that Paul could have made that connection considering the scripture I provided) then it is just a little more than they both died.

Sounds good to me.

[eschaton]

What did I say that didn't involve verse 8?

You said.

The next obvious question is who was Claudius restraining.
.

Verse 8 says

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,

Doesn't that mean after the restrainer, that you said is Caudius?

I did mean that verse 8. You were asking about the restrainer which is v. 6-7.
argument posted, and only links. That is when it becomes a violation of TWeb. I hope I cleared that up.

[Faramir]

What did I say that didn't involve verse 8?

I checked several places on the web for the meaning of the name Claudius. They all indicated crippled or lame.

The boy's and girl's name Claude is pronounced klawd. It is of Latin origin, and its meaning is "lame." Roman clan name. Claudius was the Roman emperor who succeeded Caligula. Saint Claudius (third century) was a Roman tribune who converted to Christianity. Popular in France (where it is sometimes used as a girl's name) due to the fame of seventh-century Saint Claude of Besançon. Claud is the Anglicized form. Painter Claude Monet; composer Claude Debussy; Congressman Claude Pepper; actor Claude Rains.

So I looked in a Latin dictionary and I found this.

http://catholic.archives.nd.edu/cgi-...aud&ending=ius

claud ius

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

claudeo -ere and claudo -ere [to limp , halt, be lame].

claudicatio -onis f. [a limping].

claudico -are [to limp , be lame]. Transf., [to incline, be deflected; to halt, waver].

Claudius (Clodius) -a -um [the name of two Roman gentes]; esp. [of the emperor Claudius (10 B.C.-A.D. 54)]. Adj. Claudianus -a -um , Claudialis -e.

claudo (1) (cludo) claudere clausi clausum [to close , shut up, make inaccessible]; of military positions, [to blockade, invest]; of prisoners, etc., [to shut in, confine]. Transf., [to conclude]; 'agmen', [to bring up the rear]. Hence partic. clausus -a -um, of character, [close, reserved]; n. as subst., [an enclosed place].

claudo (2) = claudeo; q.v.

claudus -a -um [limping , lame]. Transf., [crippled, defective]; poet., 'carmina alterno versu', [elegiac verse].

The claudo might kinda sorta fit, but the Greek word is this:

2722. katecho, kat-ekh'-o; from G2596 and G2192; to hold down (fast), in various applications (lit. or fig.):--have, hold (fast), keep (in memory), let, X make toward, possess, retain, seize on, stay, take, withhold.


It really seems a stretch at best, but I don't see anywhere else in the Bible where caesar is spoke of in such a way.

All of that is about Claudius, who I identify as the restrainer. The restrainer is mentioned in v. 6-7 but not 8.

Do you understand now?

[eschaton]

Sorry, I edited my previous message. Verse 8 continues "And then," doesn't that involve the restrainer from the previous verse? You were the one who brought up Claudius. Doesn't he have to be included in a discussion of verse 8? You did it anyway.

[eschaton]

Well, this is my thread. And I am making the very reasonable (and since this is my thread, enforceable) request that only matters dealing with 2 Thes. 2:8 be discussed. In other words, please keep this on topic.

If Claudis doesn't matter in verse 8 then why did you bring it up? It doesn't seem fair that you won't let me mention it when you're the one that brought it up. If that's the rules then I won't bother the thread anymore.

[Faramir]

Sorry, I edited my previous message. Verse 8 continues "And then," doesn't that involve the restrainer from the previous verse? You were the one who brought up Claudius. Doesn't he have to be included in a discussion of verse 8? You did it anyway.

No the "and then" talks about what happens after the restrainer is removed. And yes I talked about the restrainer, but I clearly stated it was for background information ONLY and I did NOT want to talk about that in this thread.

It is my position that the “Man of Lawlessness” (MoL) in 2 Thes. 2 is (or was) the Roman Emporor Nero. I will give a very brief background on that, but do not want to debate that in this thread except for whether or not Nero fits verse 8.

and again

Again, this is just for background. I do not want to debate the above, in this thread, at least not until there has been ample discussion on the specifics of verse 8. Not on to the meat of this thread, 2 Thessalonians 2:8 as it applies (or does not apply) to Nero:

So are we clear now. I did address one of the comments you made. I would like for you to address that response I made to you. It is on topic. I will post it again for your convenience.

I don't see where either of these indicate Nero stabbing himself in the neck, and I don't know of anybody in the early church who did either. According to Augustine those who believed Nero in connection with 2nd Thess 2 believed he would come back to life as a future antichrist.

If you would have read my post I said we were to match up history and scripture. Scripture tells us that David described the slaying of his enemy, Saul, as an act of God's breath (among other things). Scripture AND History tell us that Saul died by suicide. History tells us that Nero also died by suicide.

These are all facts. Do you deny any of these facts? If so, which fact(s) do you deny?

Can you answer these questions (I hope you don't mind I did change the questions a little from when I first posted, but I think the new way is a little clearer.

[eschaton]

If Claudis doesn't matter in verse 8 then why did you bring it up? It doesn't seem fair that you won't let me mention it when you're the one that brought it up. If that's the rules then I won't bother the thread anymore.

Doesn't seem fair to me. Actually, it seems totally ridiculous. Why don't you just say let's take this verse totally out of context? I guess I understand why we don't see eye to eye on these things. I believe at looking at these things in full context. It's your thread.