Is Jesus God or a god?

[Topherlee]

I think more importantly, we can look at John 1:18, and see that Jesus the one and only God:

John 1

18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained [Him] (NASB)

(Begotten, here, is not born or produced, but a statement singular existance, none like Him.)

And, seeing as John has created a nice Chiastic structure that starts with 1:1 and ends at 1:18, whether you say "a god" in verse 1 or not, Jesus is the one and only God in verse 18, which reflects us back to our translation in verse 1, where "the Word was GOD."

It doesn't really matter whether you can explain it or not (being the transcendent nature of God, it wouldn't be something we could explain anyway), but it's pretty clear that Jesus is GOD.

Michael

No, not that easily. There in no denying that Jesus is a mighty god. Scripture in Isaiah 9:6 points this out. Scripture also points out that Jesus is not Almighty. These are the very teachings of Jesus himself.

[Sparko]

Yes, there are no other Gods that are Almighty as YHVH. There is only one God who is YHVH. This is evident in Deut 6:4. Not that God is one, but YHVH is the one God. But answer Exodus 7:1. How is it that Moses was made a god? Even throughout scripture does it illustrate that men are gods. We are not formed, we are created by the one true God. Can men form gods and yet there are none? Yes. But we are not formed as gods, we are created in the image and likeness of God. What does that mean? And our only association with GOd is in Spirit.

Even Isaiah 9:6 refers to Jesus as being a "mighty god". Not the Almighty God.


Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says-- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God. 7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and lay out before me what has happened since I established my ancient people, and what is yet to come-- yes, let him foretell what will come. 8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."

"Besides me there is no god". There is no god equal to God. Even Jesus proclaims this when he says that "the Father is greater than I".

What do you think?

I think you are rationalizing and turning a blind eye to the text.


the verses say (and there are plenty more) that there is NO OTHER GOD. It doesnt say "No other God as almighty as me." It says NONE. NO OTHER. There is no other God besides YHWH. He is the ONLY GOD.

All other Gods are false Gods. Idols.

It's funny watching you twist in the wind trying anyway you can to deny clear, plain language. God wasn't mincing words. He said what he meant. NO OTHER GODS. PERIOD.

Moses was not a God. He was representing God to the Pharoah. The various Judges were not Gods either. There is only ONE true God. YHWH.

Jesus cannot be a "lesser" god. The bible makes that clear. God himself makes it clear. If you can't even see that, then there is no point in discussing anything with you, because you are a polytheist, not a Christian.

[serapha]

In what sense do Trinitarians say Jesus is the only-begotten God? IE., is the Father also the only begotten God or does that term only apply to Jesus?

Hi there!



Is there a question with the word "only"?



~serapha~

[NonTrinitarian]

Hi there!



Is there a question with the word "only"?



~serapha~

Huh?

[Jeckle&Hyde]

The Jews recognize Moses. In Ex. 7:1 Moses is called God! Using your "logic" we would have to conclude Jews are polytheistic just like the JW's, for they too believe in a God apart from God Almighty.

Pythagoras...The Jews indeed recognize Moses...but THEY certianly would disagree with your analysis. Using my "logic" does YOU NO GOOD. The Jew again would adamantly disagree with YOU...and so would I! And then again...you misunderstand my "logic"...go figure! (sheesh..don't you love it when you think people think right away they know what and where you are going with your thoughts? LOL)

In actual fact, polytheists are people who believe in more than one Supreme Being. In this regard trinitarians are consummate polytheists becase they say the Father is God Almighty, the Son is God Almighty, the Holy Spirit is God Almighty.Even thought they deny these three persons are three separate Gods,this is essentially what it boils down to if terms like "being" and "person" are not subject to equivocation.

And yet...others who attempt to explain the Godhead go into their own problems...go figure..

No wonder we keep questioning (better yet..telling each other),....Hmmm...

Ever consider the type of questions that the early believers of Jesus thought?

[Shazard]

Problem with JW is that the word "God" to them is not description of nature (similar to men, dog, stone) but title. Simple word which you can stick to whatever you like and because of it, it becomes God.
You can stick title "dog" wherever you like but only to real Dog it will imply true. Question, why then sometimes something else then Dog is called "dog". Coz it implies some dogish features, like anger, like barking, etc. Sometimes people are called dogs - by this saying that people are bad. But it does not mean that the word "dog" itself is title in EVERY context. If it is implied to some unnamed creature then we assume that the word explains nature of the creature and by this we imply everything dog is - is this unnamed creature.
SO... word "God" is not title in every context. When it is applied to men, it implies some features supposely being only God's features applied to men. For Moses it was his authority to speak about disasses and promising bad things to pharaon. This is real's Gods features, thats why you can at some sense say that Moses is like god. Judges are called Gods, coz judgement is only God's feature, but the very next verese says, that these men will die as men. So in these contexts word "god" is title not nature. BUT, when the word "God' talks about God, it implies NATURE of the creature. It explains the very nature of the creature the context is talking. This is what JW ignore, they ignore that word's meaning is defined by the very context the word is used. JWs implies mening of the word defined by OTHER context in the bible. So meaning of Word was God is defined by Context from Old Testament. But the very context of John 1 is enough to understand the real meaning of the word "God" is it talking about Nature of the creature, or it is only title. And you have to be very very very very blind to not see, that here the word "God" implies nature of the beaing, not title. Coz very next 2 verses explains, that we are talking about creator of the universe. And THIS means that here it is not title, but very nature of being. Coz only God is creator, and whoever is creator is God. Even the name of God YHWH is very essence of God - Creator. So if somebody IS Creator this somebody is God. And only God is Creator. That's why Jeremia talks that every God which is not Creator will be destroyed.
So if you are honest and do not imply other meaning of word rather then one defined by wery context, you will conclude that Jesus is God by nature. Father is God by Nature. So to harmonise these revelations you have to conclude that Father and Son both are God by nature. And this very Nature is Creator... God is not title, God is nature in proper context, and title in other context. The same is with Holy Spirit. Word Spirit has about 8 meanings, and the very context of expression will define whcih one of the meanings it is. So if the context speaks about "spirit telling, spirit teaching, spirit saying 'I'" then even for child it is clear that the word "spirit" is used in the sense of person. JW does (as allways) opposite. They goes find some expression where context obviously speaks about other meaning of the same word, and applys THAT context to the word which is used in other context. And THEN defines context by the "new" meaning of the word. But again. Bible itself sayse that New Testament is primary over Old Testament in revelation and undertanding. So first you have to come to conlcusion what is Holy Spirit by only reading New Testament, and then apply the conclusion to Old Testament verses, not otherwise.

[Sparko]

Exactly Shazard. Excellent post.

[Pythagoras]

Hi Shazard,

Problem with JW is that the word "God" to them is not description of nature (similar to men, dog, stone) but title.

I'm not a JW but you're wrong if you're giving the impression they use God as a title in every instance.

Simple word which you can stick to whatever you like and because of it, it becomes God.

Actually this is what trinitarians do more often than not! For example, because Jesus is called God(Theos) in John 1:1, "a simple word", they "stick it to whatever" by making Jesus God Almighty. Why they don't do the same with passages like 2 Cor. 4:4 where Satan is called Theos(God) boggles my mind.

You can stick title "dog" wherever you like but only to real Dog it will imply true.

Exactly!

Question, why then sometimes something else then Dog is called "dog". Coz it implies some dogish features, like anger, like barking, etc. Sometimes people are called dogs - by this saying that people are bad. But it does not mean that the word "dog" itself is title in EVERY context.

Exactly!

When it is applied to men, it implies some features supposely being only God's features applied to men. For Moses it was his authority to speak about disasses and promising bad things to pharaon. This is real's Gods features, thats why you can at some sense say that Moses is like god. Judges are called Gods, coz judgement is only God's feature, but the very next verese says, that these men will die as men. So in these contexts word "god" is title not nature.

Bravo! Therefore when the word "God" is used to describe Jesus it is used as a title, because we know Jesus was a man, he died and he wasn't omniscient etc., but God Almighty is not a man, neither does He die and He is all knowing etc.

This is what JW ignore, they ignore that word's meaning is defined by the very context the word is used.

How very ironic.

But the very context of John 1 is enough to understand the real meaning of the word "God" is it talking about Nature of the creature, or it is only title. And you have to be very very very very blind to not see, that here the word "God" implies nature of the beaing, not title.

Unfortunately there is nothing in the prologue of John to indicate Jesus is God Almighty. Infact, many Greek grammarians, including Origen the church Father say the articless Theos in John 1:1 and other nuances in the prologue argues against the Deity of Christ. So your claim is subjective with many scholars disagreeing with your point of view, that "you have to be very very very very blind not to see" what you see (that Jesus is God Almighty). .

In a nutshell, your argument that Jesus is God Almighty is based not upon Greek grammar nor on proper exegesis but on 4th century trinitarian dogma and appeal to frustration, i.e. "very very very very very blind not to see it" etc.

So first you have to come to conlcusion what is Holy Spirit by only reading New Testament, and then apply the conclusion to Old Testament verses, not otherwise

In other words, first you have to believe in the trinity doctrine, then interprete the Old and New Testaments with this belief system, which is the classic definition of "arguing in circles".


best wishes,

[Jeckle&Hyde]

Actually this is what trinitarians do more often than not! For example, because Jesus is called God(Theos) in John 1:1, "a simple word", they "stick it to whatever" by making Jesus God Almighty. Why they don't do the same with passages like 2 Cor. 4:4 where Satan is called Theos(God) boggles my mind.

I for one am not interested in who does what...to me such an argument is only a deflection...

But shall we examine the comparisons then?

John 1 one is certianly different from 2 Cor 4 four when using the word 'theos'...settled then...or should their be a continuation?

Thats all I wanted to comment on..

[Pythagoras]

Actually this is what trinitarians do more often than not! For example, because Jesus is called God(Theos) in John 1:1, "a simple word", they "stick it to whatever" by making Jesus God Almighty. Why they don't do the same with passages like 2 Cor. 4:4 where Satan is called Theos(God) boggles my mind.

I for one am not interested in who does what...to me such an argument is only a deflection...

But shall we examine the comparisons then?

John 1 one is certianly different from 2 Cor 4 four when using the word 'theos'...settled then...or should their be a continuation?

Thats all I wanted to comment on..

There is nothing in John 1:1 , appart from thoelogical bias, to warrant the use of the word Theos in a different sense than it's use in 2 Cor 4:4, John 10:34 etc.

That's the point.

[Jeckle&Hyde]

There is nothing in John 1:1 , appart from thoelogical bias, to warrant the use of the word Theos in a different sense than it's use in 2 Cor 4:4, John 10:34 etc.

That's the point.

Then why point out 2 Cor? Like I said..deflection

[Pythagoras]

There is nothing in John 1:1 , appart from thoelogical bias, to warrant the use of the word Theos in a different sense than it's use in 2 Cor 4:4, John 10:34 etc.

That's the point.

Then why point out 2 Cor? Like I said..deflection

You're not following the logic.

[Jeckle&Hyde]

You're not following the logic.

Well.....do i have too follow "the logic"? Perhaps i am trying to take this logic elsewhere...somewhere you haven't been before?

Hmmm....give me day...i will try and present something you will actually want to talk about..concerning the issue at hand..i'll present it differently...

[Shazard]

Hi Shazard,
For example, because Jesus is called God(Theos) in John 1:1, "a simple word", they "stick it to whatever" by making Jesus God Almighty. Why they don't do the same with passages like 2 Cor. 4:4 where Satan is called Theos(God) boggles my mind.
best wishes,

I can Answer. Coz those trinitarians read in context. If you bother to read next 2 verses then you will find out that we are talking about such Theos who is creator of the whole universe. And also if you go and read whole 18 verses then you will find that John 1:1 Theos is other then 2 Cor 4:4 Theos. That is the problem I see in JW and all other cults, they ignore what Bible says if it does not says what they want. And context of 2 Cor 4:4 is very different from Conterxt of John 1:1-18. John is talking about incarnation of God in human flesh and funny is that in the same prologue John tells, that the world didn't accepted exactly this truth. This is what I see JW do. They can't recognize YHWH even when he is standing in front of them and telling "you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am [He,] you will die in your sins." You see him and do not recognize him. What else he can do? He revelead himself through Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is reflection of God's nature and in him dwells whole beeing of God bodily. It's impossible to tell and show and explain it more clearly then it is allready sayed.

[anewlife]

Actually, I went from proving the scriptures and inspiration before ever considering the trinity or any other creedal statements. In my endeavors I find that I still am a soft-skeptic, soft cessationist and did not fully understand the articulation of the trinity. I could have easily stated the trinity concept as being a pagan document--however, I would have to fully research the pagan religion, and of course the history of the Ecumenical Movement (councils).

Would it be a fair to say I do not fully understand the concept of trinity and therefore it can't be christian--so it must be pagan by default? I wouldn't think so. So if Christians made statements (Nicene, Chalcedon) wouldn't they have to be able to back up such statements with scripture? Why would the early Christians make such statements (other than to counter Ebionism, Docetism, Dynamic Monarchianism (Adoptionism), Modalistic Monarchianism (Sabellianism), Arianism)?



Elohim, used for God 2,570 times in the OT, literally means "the powerful ones."

Adonai, used 449 times, means "my lords."


Titus 2:13 "Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus."



Rom. 9:5 "Of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen."

Col. 1:15–17a "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together."



What about?





The Holy Spirit is called God:</P>

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2 Cor. 3:17–18</P>

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"Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from</P>

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glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit."</P>

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Acts 5:3–4</P>

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"But Peter said, ‘Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.’"</P>

</P>

See also:</P>

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2 Sam. 23:2; Isa. 40:13–18; compare Isa. 6:9 with Acts 28:25; Ps. 95:7 with Heb. 3:7ff; Jer. 31:31 with Heb. 10:15. In these places the words of the Spirit are the words of God.</P>

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The Holy Spirit is a Person:</P>

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• The Spirit has His own intelligence (1 Cor. 2:10–13).</P>

• The Spirit manifests emotions (Eph. 4:30).</P>

• The Spirit demonstrates His own will (Acts 8:29, 9:31; 13:2; 15:28; 16:6; 1 Cor. 12:11).</P>

• Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is worse than blasphemy of Christ or the Father (Matt. 12:32).</P>

• The Spirit humbles Himself by willingly diverting attention away from Himself to Christ (John 15:26; 16:13–14).</P>

Just as Christ humbled Himself in becoming a servant of man (Phil. 2:5–8), the Holy Spirit humbles Himself in that He is the . . .</P>

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1. Least known</P>

2. Least worshiped</P>

3. Least individualized of the Godhead</P>

1 Cor. 12:4–6 "There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men."</P>

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2 Cor. 13:14 "May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."</P>

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Eph. 2:18 "For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.[size=\\\\\"2\\\\\"]</P>

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