The Communion of Saints

[ReinnieR]

The Nicene Creed says

"I believe in the COMMUNION OF SAINTS"

i know Catholics are not the only ones who profess this.

What's your point of view of it?

[furay]

The Nicene Creed says

"I believe in the COMMUNION OF SAINTS"

i know Catholics are not the only ones who profess this.

What's your point of view of it?

Actually the Apostle's Creed says that. It means those in the Church on earth are in communion with those in the Church in heaven. These comprise one Body of Christ.

[ReinnieR]

Actually the Apostle's Creed says that. It means those in the Church on earth are in communion with those in the Church in heaven. These comprise one Body of Christ.

yes you're right.

i'm sorry i meant the Apostles's Creed.

[spiritmech]

yes you're right.

i'm sorry i meant the Apostles's Creed.

I believe in it.
sm

[Hitch]

Actually the Apostle's Creed says that. It means those in the Church on earth are in communion with those in the Church in heaven. These comprise one Body of Christ.

PERF!


H

[furay]

PERF!


H

And those on earth can ask the intercession of those in heaven.

Lest too many agree with me...

[ReinnieR]

And those on earth can ask the intercession of those in heaven.

Lest too many agree with me...

i agree with you.

[furay]

i agree with you.

Right on.

[Keumkang]

Silly question, I'm sure, but is there any other meaning to this phrase, accepted by protestants? Reason I ask is, I know of a few protestant or post-protestant churches that make use of the Creed, which don't hold to the doctrine of Communion of Saints as I understand it(intercession and all that). If not, then it's a mite bit silly to be reciting a creed they don't really buy all of.

[elysian]

Lutherans profess the Apostle's Creed, and we do believe in the communion of saints. All believers belong to the Body of Christ. Most Lutherans however do NOT believe that the communion of saints implies that we can chat with our departed relatives. Necromancy (communication with the dead) is forbidden in Scripture (Deuteronomy 18:10-12.) Attempting to communicate with the dead opens the doors for communication not with departed saints, but with demons. In the First Commandment God tells us He is a jealous God, and that we are to worship Him alone. We are all part of the Body of Christ, but those who have gone before us have completed their work here (the Church Triumphant) while we are still struggling in this life on earth (the Church Militant.) Until we are reunited with the departed at the End of Days, we cannot communicate with those who have gone before us.

In Luke 16:19-31 we read the parable of the rich man. It is not only a warning against ignoring the plight of the poor in this life, but it is also a teaching on the reality of our physical death. When we die we are taken out of this world. We are officially out of the loop at that point in regard to life on Earth. Jesus distinctly tells us that, "'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'" (Luke 16:26) In other words, once we die we cross into another existence in which we no longer influence events on Earth. Likewise, because of that great chasm, those still here on Earth can no longer influence those who have passed on. Their work has been completed. We who remain on this earth are still works-in-progress but thankfully we are works-in-progress who have the hope and the assurance that God will indeed complete the good work He began in us.

At the moment a believer in Christ moves on we become party to the mystery the the apostle Paul refers to in 1 Corinthians 15:50-57 which clearly states that at the End of Days, in a twinkling of an eye- a mystery to us- that we will be changed. We die and immediately (or so it will seem to us) we will be made perfect and we will be standing in the presence of God. The refining process is worked in us here on Earth, and when God moves us on we are changed and made perfect- not because of our righteousness or the "holiness level" we achieved on Earth, but for Jesus' sake. While no one really knows where the dead are from the time they die until the End of Days (this is a mystery) there is no mention in Scripture of a transitional place or of a necessity for further testing and refinement after our death.

While those who have gone before us are still a part of the Body of Christ, we cannot go to them nor can they go to us until the End of Days. It is at that time when we will truly be as one with the communion of saints and we will be able to see and communicate with them again. When we pray to or for those who are departed we run the risk of making them into idols or opening the door for demons rather than relying on our One Mediator, Jesus. Jesus did not teach us to pray to His mother or any other departed saint- He taught us to pray to God the Father, and to trust in Him alone for our salvation.

[maudman]

Lutherans profess the Apostle's Creed, and we do believe in the communion of saints. All believers belong to the Body of Christ. Most Lutherans however do NOT believe that the communion of saints implies that we can chat with our departed relatives. Necromancy (communication with the dead) is forbidden in Scripture (Deuteronomy 18:10-12.) Attempting to communicate with the dead opens the doors for communication not with departed saints, but with demons. In the First Commandment God tells us He is a jealous God, and that we are to worship Him alone. We are all part of the Body of Christ, but those who have gone before us have completed their work here (the Church Triumphant) while we are still struggling in this life on earth (the Church Militant.) Until we are reunited with the departed at the End of Days, we cannot communicate with those who have gone before us.

In Luke 16:19-31 we read the parable of the rich man. It is not only a warning against ignoring the plight of the poor in this life, but it is also a teaching on the reality of our physical death. When we die we are taken out of this world. We are officially out of the loop at that point in regard to life on Earth. Jesus distinctly tells us that, "'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'" (Luke 16:26) In other words, once we die we cross into another existence in which we no longer influence events on Earth. Likewise, because of that great chasm, those still here on Earth can no longer influence those who have passed on. Their work has been completed. We who remain on this earth are still works-in-progress but thankfully we are works-in-progress who have the hope and the assurance that God will indeed complete the good work He began in us.

At the moment a believer in Christ moves on we become party to the mystery the the apostle Paul refers to in 1 Corinthians 15:50-57 which clearly states that at the End of Days, in a twinkling of an eye- a mystery to us- that we will be changed. We die and immediately (or so it will seem to us) we will be made perfect and we will be standing in the presence of God. The refining process is worked in us here on Earth, and when God moves us on we are changed and made perfect- not because of our righteousness or the "holiness level" we achieved on Earth, but for Jesus' sake. While no one really knows where the dead are from the time they die until the End of Days (this is a mystery) there is no mention in Scripture of a transitional place or of a necessity for further testing and refinement after our death.

While those who have gone before us are still a part of the Body of Christ, we cannot go to them nor can they go to us until the End of Days. It is at that time when we will truly be as one with the communion of saints and we will be able to see and communicate with them again. When we pray to or for those who are departed we run the risk of making them into idols or opening the door for demons rather than relying on our One Mediator, Jesus. Jesus did not teach us to pray to His mother or any other departed saint- He taught us to pray to God the Father, and to trust in Him alone for our salvation.

Well Done. Nice post

[furay]

Necromancy (communication with the dead) is forbidden in Scripture (Deuteronomy 18:10-12.) Attempting to communicate with the dead opens the doors for communication not with departed saints, but with demons.

Praying to the saints is not communicating with the dead precisely because they are not dead. Rather, those holy ones to whom we pay veneration are alive in Christ. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

In Luke 16:19-31 we read the parable of the rich man. It is not only a warning against ignoring the plight of the poor in this life, but it is also a teaching on the reality of our physical death. When we die we are taken out of this world. We are officially out of the loop at that point in regard to life on Earth. Jesus distinctly tells us that, "'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'" (Luke 16:26) In other words, once we die we cross into another existence in which we no longer influence events on Earth.

Um, you do realise that this took place before the Resurrection of our Lord? Heaven had not been open to us yet. Now when a saint "dies" they pass on to be with the Lord in heaven, they are no longer floating in limbo or hades.

The heresy of Luther is vile indeed, for it seeks to cut the Body of Christ into two pieces... separating us from those who have run the race to the finish. No, we are not cut off from them, rather they cheer us on with all the Angels and the very Mother of God. Amen.

[eschaton]

Praying to the saints is not communicating with the dead precisely because they are not dead. Rather, those holy ones to whom we pay veneration are alive in Christ. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
.

But are we on the spiritual level that we should assume we can talk to them? Why can't we just pray to God? Why should we think we can talk to them? Did the apostles give us an example of talking to the departed?

[furay]

But are we on the spiritual level that we should assume we can talk to them?

Are you on a spiritual level where you can ask a friend to pray for you? St James says the prayer of a righteous man avails much. Who are more righteous than those saints in heaven with Jesus the King?

Why can't we just pray to God?

We can and we should. I'd say 2-3% of all my prayers are directed to the Theotokos, the Angels, and the saints - the other 97% are to God. I think a common misconception Protestants have is that any one who prays to saints does so primarily and chooses to neglect God. These saints can do nothing apart from God! When you honor the servants of the King, you honor the King Himself.

Did the apostles give us an example of talking to the departed?

Yes, and it has been preserved in the oral deposit of faith known as Tradition.

[eschaton]

Are you on a spiritual level where you can ask a friend to pray for you? St James says the prayer of a righteous man avails much. Who are more righteous than those saints in heaven with Jesus the King?

Well, I don't feel the need to ask others to pray for me, because I figure God will give me what I deserve, good or bad. But I'm not opposed to having others pray for me, or myself praying for others. But I'll admit I'm delving into areas that I don't really know much about because they're not usually very interesting to me. I kinda wonder why this is in the eschatology section, but it's okay with me. I guess it's a matter of personal eschatology rather than end time eschatology.

We can and we should. I'd say 2-3% of all my prayers are directed to the Theotokos, the Angels, and the saints - the other 97% are to God. I think a common misconception Protestants have is that any one who prays to saints does so primarily and chooses to neglect God. These saints can do nothing apart from God! When you honor the servants of the King, you honor the King Himself.

Prayer seems like a type of worship to me. The angels and the departed are part of creation because God created them. I know we're not supposed to worship creation. (Rom 1:25)

Yes, and it has been preserved in the oral deposit of faith known as Tradition.

Well, it's been pointed out that most Christians believe in the Apostle's creed, but not all of them interpret the communion of the saints as do Roman Catholics. Since it's not perfectly clear in the creed, I would look for NT examples primarily. It's fair to look at the ECF, but the further they get away from the first century the more I would be skeptical about what they say, but I wouldn't rule it out. I know the Roman church is big on tradition. My wife was brought up Roman Catholic.

I admit there's a lot of things in the RC church I don't agree with, but if I knew more about them maybe I would be a little more accepting. I think I understand the RC church a little better than I used to.

The role of tradition in religion is an interesting subject, since most of religion is tradition in one form or another. Look at Islam. As far as I can tell it's about 99% tradition IMO. I don't think it says anything in the Quran about Judas being crucified on the cross. Some teacher about 1000 ad said that I think, yet most all Muslims believe that as far as I know. I'm not against tradition, but in Christianity I think we should be sure it doesn't contradict the scriptures.