Matthew 24 - Problems for Preterists

[malcolm]

This is a post which I originally made at another message board, and Dee Dee kindly invited me to post it here to give her a better opportunity to respond.

Some of this is based on a debate which Dee Dee was/is involved in, so my apologies to those who may read this and feel like they've missed something.

At this point, I just want to focus on Matthew 24.

Mat 24:1-2 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 "Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."

First of all, I agree with you. Jesus was obviously talking about the temple he'd just stood in. Most of the events He then describes in Matthew 24 took place during the period around 70AD when that temple was destroyed and would have had particular relevance for this living at that period.

However, there are also some rather obvious indications that some of these events would also take place throughout future history, building up to an ultimate fulfillment in His second coming, and that some of these events would only take place during this "ultimate" fulfillment period.

I'm interested to see how you "interpret" these verses:

Mat 24:5-6 For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ, ' and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.

Aren't these things still happening?

Mat 24:7-8 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

Again, aren't these things still happening?

Mat 24:9 "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.

Christians were undoubtedly persecuted and put to death for their faith prior to the temple destruction of 70AD. But were they really "hated by all nations?"

Mat 24:10-13 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Yet again, we see the same thing happening today, and throughout Christian history. Isn't it strange that, if these things were completely fulfilled in the 1st Century, they would still be happening now - and, in fact, more now than ever before?

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Again, the gospel was certainly preached prior to 70AD, but "in the whole world" and "to all nations?" This was Jesus speaking here, remember - not an average local who had a limited understanding of geography.

Mat 24:21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again.

"Never to be equalled again." Are you really saying that the events surrounding the destruction of the temple in 70AD represent distress so great that it had never been, and will never be, equalled?

Mat 24:27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

This seems very clear. When the Son of Man comes, nobody is going to miss it or mistake it or be in any doubt about it. You'd think, if this happened in 70AD, we'd have heard about it, wouldn't you?

Mat 24:34 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

ALL these things. Did the "generation" (if you want to take it literally) really see ALL those things happen?

That'll do for now. The basic problem with your position, Dee Dee, is that it is an "extreme" based on human wisdom and opinion, rather than a balanced position based on the whole Word of God and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Eccl 7:18 It is good to grasp the one and not let go of the other. The man who fears God will avoid all extremes.

I look forward to your answers. :)

love in Christ,
Malcolm

[Dee Dee Warren]

Great Malcolm!! Thank you for posting those here. I will be getting to them as soon as possible. I will probably take a few at a time to stay within the post size limits and to make it manageable for us to interact.

[joelkaki]

However, there are also some rather obvious indications that some of these events would also take place throughout future history, building up to an ultimate fulfillment in His second coming, and that some of these events would only take place during this "ultimate" fulfillment period.

I am unaware of such indications in Scripture. One important point that needs to be kept in the forefront in discussions as these is that THE BIBLE IS OUR GUIDE, NOT THE NEWSPAPER.

Malcolm, you go on to point out that many of the conditions described in Matthew 24 are the same as today. With the time controlled in verse 34--this generation--we know that Jesus was prophesying something in the first century. You cannot just decide that because we see similar things in the paper and on TV, it must have been part of Jesus prophecy. Jesus did not tell us that the things prior to verse 34 would be near the end of time, he told us they would be in the first century. We cannot decide that he was also referring to us because the newspaper articles seem similar. That is not good biblical hermeneutics (did I spell that right?).


Joel

[Hitch]

malcolm:
This is a post which I originally made at another message board, and Dee Dee kindly invited me to post it here to give her a better opportunity to respond.

Some of this is based on a debate which Dee Dee was/is involved in, so my apologies to those who may read this and feel like they've missed something.

At this point, I just want to focus on Matthew 24.

Mat 24:1-2 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 "Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."

First of all, I agree with you. Jesus was obviously talking about the temple he'd just stood in. Most of the events He then describes in Matthew 24 took place during the period around 70AD when that temple was destroyed and would have had particular relevance for this living at that period.

However, there are also some rather obvious indications that some of these events would also take place throughout future history, building up to an ultimate fulfillment in His second coming, and that some of these events would only take place during this "ultimate" fulfillment period.

I'm interested to see how you "interpret" these verses:

Mat 24:5-6 For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ, ' and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.

Aren't these things still happening?

Nope. None of thoses folks He was speaking to are alive today. And if you're going to be 'literal' when someone is speaking saying 'you' the listeners are the obect not people unborn for thousands of years.

Mat 24:7-8 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

Again, aren't these things still happening?

Nope. The 'birth pangs' speak to a begining,,, what began was the overtaking of the globe by the church which had already started but greatly expanded only after complete seperation form Israel.

Mat 24:9 "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.

Christians were undoubtedly persecuted and put to death for their faith prior to the temple destruction of 70AD. But were they really "hated by all nations?"

Once again , a general application can be made so long as we recognize these things were personally spoken to real persons.

Mat 24:10-13 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Yet again, we see the same thing happening today, and throughout Christian history. Isn't it strange that, if these things were completely fulfilled in the 1st Century, they would still be happening now - and, in fact, more now than ever before?

Well ya got a problem. Jesus took pains to set all this in the context of the Destruction. You are taking pains to remove it as far as possible from where Christ put it... Not a good idea

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Again, the gospel was certainly preached prior to 70AD, but "in the whole world" and "to all nations?" This was Jesus speaking here, remember - not an average local who had a limited understanding of geography.

This one gets tireing the DFs really need to read the NT;

Rom 10:17-18
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: "Their sound has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world."
(NKJ)

Col 1:5-6
5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel,
6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;
(NKJ)

Titus 2:10-12
10 not pilfering, but showing all good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things.
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
(NKJ)[quote]


Mat 24:21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again.

"Never to be equalled again." Are you really saying that the events surrounding the destruction of the temple in 70AD represent distress so great that it had never been, and will never be, equalled?[quote]

YUP.
In two ways. Fisrt as in the above quoted Scriptures ,, strict literalism is an interpretive mistake. Second, Dan and Christ spoke of the same thing. Christ actually refers to Dan and says 'the time is fulfilled'... so I'll go to Dan and bring up the contextual portion;

Dan 12:1
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
(KJV)

Ya dont think 'nation' is used genericly do ya? It means Israel the nation Dan would be concerned with. So what could be the worst trouble that could come upon the nation of Israel? The recompense for regicide, just as Jesus had prohesied in M23. Or is 'wrath to the uttermost' not really such a bad thing?

Mat 24:27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

This seems very clear. When the Son of Man comes, nobody is going to miss it or mistake it or be in any doubt about it. You'd think, if this happened in 70AD, we'd have heard about it, wouldn't you?

Ya remember the ones He warned to run for the hills of Judah? They could look back from their camps and see the smoke of the burning Temple rise as it proclaimed that the so called foolish carpenter's son was indeed a True Prophet of God. and you have heard of the Destruction ,,,havent you?

Mat 24:34 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

ALL these things. Did the "generation" (if you want to take it literally) really see ALL those things happen?

Just a s literally as this;



Matt 26:64
64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
(KJV)

So is the High Priest still alive? Or is your interpretive method faulty?

That'll do for now. The basic problem with your position, Dee Dee, is that it is an "extreme" based on human wisdom and opinion, rather than a balanced position based on the whole Word of God and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. LMAO

Eccl 7:18 It is good to grasp the one and not let go of the other. The man who fears God will avoid all extremes.

I look forward to your answers. :)

love in Christ,
Malcolm

Take care

Hitch

[Dee Dee Warren]

Dear Malcolm:

Okay, I am ready to begin tackling your questions. However, I do have to say at the outset, though, I think it is very important that you need to deal with the timing text, namely Matthew 24:34. The reason that I say this is because even if you prove that certain things did not happen that should have happened, this does not prove futurism or disprove preterism, it merely demonstrates Jesus to be a false prophet if He did in fact say that certain things would happen, and they did not. We cannot put the cart before the horse and determine what the time text means ex post facto based only upon whether the prophecy came true or not or we would be no better than defenders of numerous prophetic charlatans throughout the ages.

So goes with the Olivet Discourse. The disciples asked certain questions (it does not matter how many etc) and Jesus provided a lengthy response and capped it off with the time limitation (this generation will not pass away until all these things take place). Any prophecy could be true if you don’t allow a time statement to be the test of its truth or falsity. I could tell you that America is going to be destroyed in one week, and if it does not happen, I could tell you that there is an indefinite gap between the sixth and seventh day. What point then was there for giving you a time period?? Skeptics see through these Physic Friends Network methods.

At this point, I just want to focus on Matthew 24.

Mat 24:1-2 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 "Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."

First of all, I agree with you. Jesus was obviously talking about the temple he'd just stood in. Most of the events He then describes in Matthew 24 took place during the period around 70AD when that temple was destroyed and would have had particular relevance for this living at that period.

Okay then I see we are in agreement in a crucial point, in fact a very crucial point. Jesus is not talking about some future rebuilt Temple, He is talking about the Temple that is front of Him right then and there.

However, there are also some rather obvious indications that some of these events would also take place throughout future history, building up to an ultimate fulfillment in His second coming, and that some of these events would only take place during this "ultimate" fulfillment period.

You see though Malcolm, this is simply not possible, and let me explain why by repeating my conclusion from the debate in the other forum….

Now we know when the city and Temple were destroyed. It was in 70AD. If that is “one” of “all these things,” then ALL of the rest of that passage, at least up to Matthew 24:33, Luke 21:31, and Mark 13:31 happened in the first century as well. It is inescapable. The destruction the then existing Temple is a completely unique, datable, and nonrepeatable event. If the prophecy was not primarily fulfilled in the first century, it can never be. This also ties in with the “abomination of desolation” and Daniel 9. Jesus in identifying what Temple He was referring to totally destroys any notion that the Temple being referred to in Daniel 9 is any other Temple than the one that existed when Christ gave His Discourse. There is NO way around this. THIS IS WHERE I LAY DOWN THE GAUNTLET. It is an intractable problem for futurism.

Do you see the problem Malcolm? You have conceded that the destruction of the Temple is one of “all these things” and it is equally apparent that all of the events MUST happen within the space of one generation, no matter where one places that generation…. So since the only unique and unrepeatable event happened in the generation that lived back then it either all did or the prophecy failed.

[Dee Dee Warren]

To continue:

I'm interested to see how you "interpret" these verses:

Mat 24:5-6 For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ, ' and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.

Aren't these things still happening?

Sure, but I would say, so what? That means that they are useless then as specific signs, but only as general ones. The fact is, as I stated above, that there was one unmistakebble event, one nonrepeatably unique event, and that was the destruction of the Temple then statnding, and that is indispuatably past.
The question you should be asking is did those things happen then, and the answer is a resounding yes! If you require proof of that, I can provide it, not only from within the Bible, but from secular history as well. The Apostle John also tells us when this passage was being fulfilled as well here…

1 John 2:18 – Little children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even so now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

John taught that the signs of the false messiahs back then proved that it was the last HOUR back then.

I could move on with the rest of your points but I would like to pause here and see where we are at.

[malcolm]

joelkaki:
Malcolm, you go on to point out that many of the conditions described in Matthew 24 are the same as today. With the time controlled in verse 34--this generation--we know that Jesus was prophesying something in the first century. You cannot just decide that because we see similar things in the paper and on TV, it must have been part of Jesus prophecy.

I can't? Why not?

Jesus did not tell us that the things prior to verse 34 would be near the end of time, he told us they would be in the first century.

He also told us they would be near the end of time.

love in Christ,
Malcolm

[malcolm]

Hitch:
Nope. None of thoses folks He was speaking to are alive today. And if you're going to be 'literal' when someone is speaking saying 'you' the listeners are the obect not people unborn for thousands of years.

I was referring to His predictions, not the people He was speaking to.

This one gets tireing the DFs really need to read the NT;

What's a DF?

Ya remember the ones He warned to run for the hills of Judah? They could look back from their camps and see the smoke of the burning Temple rise as it proclaimed that the so called foolish carpenter's son was indeed a True Prophet of God. and you have heard of the Destruction ,,,havent you?

The Scripture says:

Mat 24:27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Perhaps you got confused and were thinking of something else.

love in Christ,
Malcolm

[malcolm]

Dee Dee Warren:
Okay, I am ready to begin tackling your questions. However, I do have to say at the outset, though, I think it is very important that you need to deal with the timing text, namely Matthew 24:34.

It's very important we deal with that text. Whether or not it is strictly a "timing text" in the sense that you are advocating is a separate point.

So goes with the Olivet Discourse. The disciples asked certain questions (it does not matter how many etc) and Jesus provided a lengthy response and capped it off with the time limitation (this generation will not pass away until all these things take place).

Well then, all you need to do is adequately show how "all these things" took place within the first century. Presumably, you must believe they did, otherwise you are calling Jesus a false prophet, right?

Any prophecy could be true if you don’t allow a time statement to be the test of its truth or falsity.

On the surface of things, that's a good point. But, go a little deeper, and its not quite so simple to apply to Biblical prophecy.

I could tell you that America is going to be destroyed in one week, and if it does not happen, I could tell you that there is an indefinite gap between the sixth and seventh day. What point then was there for giving you a time period??

I could predict that you are going to sin within the next week. I would be completely accurate in that prediction. Yet it would not exclude the fact that you will also sin during the week after.

Okay then I see we are in agreement in a crucial point, in fact a very crucial point. Jesus is not talking about some future rebuilt Temple, He is talking about the Temple that is front of Him right then and there.

Yes. And He is also talking about some future rebuilt temple.

Now we know when the city and Temple were destroyed. It was in 70AD. If that is “one” of “all these things,” then ALL of the rest of that passage, at least up to Matthew 24:33, Luke 21:31, and Mark 13:31 happened in the first century as well. It is inescapable.

So all you have to do is adequately show this, which was part of the reason behind my original post.

Jesus in identifying what Temple He was referring to totally destroys any notion that the Temple being referred to in Daniel 9 is any other Temple than the one that existed when Christ gave His Discourse.

No, it simply makes it iron-clad that Daniel 9, and Jesus Himself, were referring to the existant temple at that time. It doesn't destroy or exclude any notion of a future temple.

It is pointless trying to use human wisdom to understand the things of God.

love in Christ,
Malcolm

[malcolm]

Dee Dee Warren:
Sure, but I would say, so what? That means that they are useless then as specific signs, but only as general ones. The fact is, as I stated above, that there was one unmistakebble event, one nonrepeatably unique event, and that was the destruction of the Temple then statnding, and that is indispuatably past.[/b]

So are you saying that, since Matthew 24 has been completely fulfilled in the first century, it is now completely irrelevant?

The question you should be asking is did those things happen then, and the answer is a resounding yes! If you require proof of that, I can provide it, not only from within the Bible, but from secular history as well.

Well, that's one of the questions I am asking. And, for now, I'd prefer if you just answer it on the basis of the Scriptures I pointed out in Matthew 24.

[b]1 John 2:18 – Little children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even so now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

John taught that the signs of the false messiahs back then proved that it was the last HOUR back then.

He also provides a good example of the typological nature of Jewish prophecy - many antichrists leading up to one ultimate antichrist.

So who was the antichrist, by the way? And, who were the "many antichrists" who came before him?

love in Christ,
Malcolm

[Hitch]

malcolm:
Hitch:
Nope. None of thoses folks He was speaking to are alive today. And if you're going to be 'literal' when someone is speaking saying 'you' the listeners are the obect not people unborn for thousands of years.

I was referring to His predictions, not the people He was speaking to.

This one gets tireing the DFs really need to read the NT;

What's a DF?

Ya remember the ones He warned to run for the hills of Judah? They could look back from their camps and see the smoke of the burning Temple rise as it proclaimed that the so called foolish carpenter's son was indeed a True Prophet of God. and you have heard of the Destruction ,,,havent you?

The Scripture says:

Mat 24:27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Perhaps you got confused and were thinking of something else.

love in Christ,
Malcolm

LOL You're not up to this league.

[yxboom]

malcolm DF = "Dispy Futurist" (I think it's meant to be derrogatory)

[Faramir]

yxboom:
malcolm DF = "Dispy Futurist" (I think it's meant to be derrogatory)

Well at least when I use it, I do not intend for it to be derrogatory.

When I am derrogatory, it is usually more obvious. :D

[Hitch]

More fomally Dispensational/Futurist


?Gee maybe its descriptive....and much easier to type. Ya know like PM rather than Post Mellinnialist. But by all means feel free to spin it any way you like.

H

[malcolm]

Hitch:
LOL You're not up to this league.

Very true. Perhaps you should try coming down to my level.

Mat 18:3 And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

love in Christ,
Malcolm