Universalism & Inclusivism

[RBerman]

I don't see that inclusivism is works based. The point isn't the people can be justified by works. I'd guess that agnostics who are saved (the main category I know personally) would be some who do good because it is good, understanding that they're imperfect and don't expect any reward for what they do.

Most people do what they think is good. Those who killed Jesus had a variety of reasons for thinking it was good to do so. But they were wrong. They had "zeal not according to knowledge" and were ignorant of God's righteousness in Christ, persistence in which ignorance meant they would not be saved. (Romans 11:1-4)

I tend to see Jesus' work as objective. That is, I think his death actually set up new possibilities. I also think that we've got many people in the US (I can't speak for other cultures) who are living in accordance with large parts of Jesus' teachings without quite being able to accept God's role. I still trace the good parts of their lives back to Jesus. It seems to me that the most problematical cultures currently are those who know least about Jesus and are most resistant to the Gospel. I think it's important to evangelize them, as the current cultures seem sufficiently toxic that they're likely to be producing far fewer people who can hear God than a Christian culture would.

If by "not quite able to accept God's role" you mean "Doing what suits them, which happens sometimes to coincide with what God says, but God's will doesn't actually factor into their decisionmaking at all," then I could agree. But I don't think that's what you mean. I do believe in common grace and natural law which often lead men to "do the right thing." But I don't confuse it with the faith in Christ which is necessary to be united to Christ, becoming one of God's children.

I think people can destroy themselves, and I think the Gospel is important. But I'm not sure it's quite so simple as all Christians being saved and all non-Christians being damned.

Your lack of confidence in this basic point of Christian doctrine saddens me.

[Cerebrum123]

I think people can destroy themselves, and I think the Gospel is important. But I'm not sure it's quite so simple as all Christians being saved and all non-Christians being damned.

I don't think it's quite that simple either, but only in cases like before Christ came, or someone who never had any chance to hear the Gospel at all, and not people who have heard the Gospel, but still rejected it(the latter would be the more common in America today). Now, I know that we are "without excuse", but isn't there something in the Bible about those who did not know the law, but followed it anyway(I could be wrong on this one, but I seem to remember something like that in there somewhere). Maybe someone could help me on this particular verse? Anyway, I think that there are some cases where your sentence is applicable, but not always(very special circumstances only).

[RBerman]

I think people can destroy themselves, and I think the Gospel is important. But I'm not sure it's quite so simple as all Christians being saved and all non-Christians being damned.

I don't think it's quite that simple either, but only in cases like before Christ came, or someone who never had any chance to hear the Gospel at all, and not people who have heard the Gospel, but still rejected it(the latter would be the more common in America today). Now, I know that we are "without excuse", but isn't there something in the Bible about those who did not know the law, but followed it anyway(I could be wrong on this one, but I seem to remember something like that in there somewhere). Maybe someone could help me on this particular verse? Anyway, I think that there are some cases where your sentence is applicable, but not always(very special circumstances only).

1) You quoted Hedrick, but then attributed the quotation to me.
2) My comments were within the modern context, after Christ's coming. I was not addressing the topic of how in Old Testament times God gathered a nation as his own and gave them prophets, leaders, and a priestly system which served as a shadow of the definitive work of Christ which was then in the future.
3) You are thinking of this passage:

Romans 2:1-16

1 Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. 2 We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. 3 Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? 5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.

6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality.

12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

This passage does give the hypothetical example of a Gentile who kept "the law on his heart" and was thus "righteous before God." This is one way to avoid God's wrath: Be perfect, as God is perfect. Paul's point is that this way is theoretically open to Gentiles as well as Jews, because Gentiles have the Law in their own way. But within the context of this passage, the moral perfection necessary to avoid God's wrath is not something anyone actually achieves. Thus verse 1 says that those who judge the evil of other men have also done evil themselves. So the point is not that God's standard is less than perfection, or that some Gentile (or Jew) has actually achieved God's perfect standard, but rather that all men are on equal footing before God, guilty of sin and in need of saving from God's wrath. The passages before and after this passage make this theme clear:

Romans 1:16-18

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.” 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

Romans 3:9-26

What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

The natural state of men is to "in their unrighteousness supress the truth." This applies to both Jews and Gentiles; "all have sinned." The law (whether the Jewish Torah, or the law on the hearts of the Gentile) does not protect us from God's wrath, because we fail to meet the law's demands. That's why God provided a way for men to escape his wrath, through faith in Christ. There is no other name by which we must be saved (Acts 4:12) than the name of Jesus. In our day, only those who call on the name of the Lord Jesus (Romans 10:17) will be saved.

[Cerebrum123]

1) You quoted Hedrick, but then attributed the quotation to me.
2) My comments were within the modern context, after Christ's coming. I was not addressing the topic of how in Old Testament times God gathered a nation as his own and gave them prophets, leaders, and a priestly system which served as a shadow of the definitive work of Christ which was then in the future.
3) You are thinking of this passage:

Romans 2:1-16

1 Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. 2 We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. 3 Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? 5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.

6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality.

12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

This passage does give the hypothetical example of a Gentile who kept "the law on his heart" and was thus "righteous before God." This is one way to avoid God's wrath: Be perfect, as God is perfect. Paul's point is that this way is theoretically open to Gentiles as well as Jews, because Gentiles have the Law in their own way. But within the context of this passage, the moral perfection necessary to avoid God's wrath is not something anyone actually achieves. Thus verse 1 says that those who judge the evil of other men have also done evil themselves. So the point is not that God's standard is less than perfection, or that some Gentile (or Jew) has actually achieved God's perfect standard, but rather that all men are on equal footing before God, guilty of sin and in need of saving from God's wrath. The passages before and after this passage make this theme clear:

Romans 1:16-18

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.” 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

Romans 3:9-26

What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

The natural state of men is to "in their unrighteousness supress the truth." This applies to both Jews and Gentiles; "all have sinned." The law (whether the Jewish Torah, or the law on the hearts of the Gentile) does not protect us from God's wrath, because we fail to meet the law's demands. That's why God provided a way for men to escape his wrath, through faith in Christ. There is no other name by which we must be saved (Acts 4:12) than the name of Jesus. In our day, only those who call on the name of the Lord Jesus (Romans 10:17) will be saved.

Thanks for the response. If I somehow attributed that quote to you, it was accidental. I had seen hedrick being quoted by you, and then used your quotation of him, to quote him again. I guess that caused problems, sorry. You made some very interesting points. I will definitely be thinking about them.

[RBerman]

Thanks for the response. If I somehow attributed that quote to you, it was accidental. I had seen hedrick being quoted by you, and then used your quotation of him, to quote him again. I guess that caused problems, sorry.

No problem; it was clear from the flow of the thread above that you were actually quoting Hedrick. Thanks for fixing it. This forum software doesn't handle nested quotations well at all. You can manually make it look right, or you can go back and respond to the post which originally contained the text you want to discuss.

You made some very interesting points. I will definitely be thinking about them.

OK!

[Cerebrum123]

No problem; it was clear from the flow of the thread above that you were actually quoting Hedrick. Thanks for fixing it. This forum software doesn't handle nested quotations well at all. You can manually make it look right, or you can go back and respond to the post which originally contained the text you want to discuss.


OK!

The edit is no longer available, or I would fix it, sorry.

[RBerman]

The edit is no longer available, or I would fix it, sorry.

I am going prematurely senile; I went back and looked at it, and saw my name was still attached, and somehow thought, "Oh, he fixed it." Anyway... have a good day!

[hedrick]

Most people do what they think is good. Those who killed Jesus had a variety of reasons for thinking it was good to do so. But they were wrong. They had "zeal not according to knowledge" and were ignorant of God's righteousness in Christ, persistence in which ignorance meant they would not be saved. (Romans 11:1-4)

I didn't mean that everyone who thinks they are doing the right thing is necessarily saved. Rather, I think God may well be working with people who for one reason or another don't realize it's God. For them God's voice is going to seem like a force for good that they don't recognize as God.

You keep trying to turn inclusivism into justification by works. It's not. If any non-Christians are justified, it is because they have actually heard Christ's voice, not because they have done things they claim are good (or even things that are actually good).

I agree. Many people have done the most appalling things, thinking they were good. How many of these are saved people who are badly deluged, and how many are people who have succumbed to the Other Side? That's for God to judge, because God knows what he's doing with people, and I don't.

[RBerman]

I didn't mean that everyone who thinks they are doing the right thing is necessarily saved. Rather, I think God may well be working with people who for one reason or another don't realize it's God. For them God's voice is going to seem like a force for good that they don't recognize as God. You keep trying to turn inclusivism into justification by works. It's not. If any non-Christians are justified, it is because they have actually heard Christ's voice, not because they have done things they claim are good (or even things that are actually good).

I agree. Many people have done the most appalling things, thinking they were good. How many of these are saved people who are badly deluged, and how many are people who have succumbed to the Other Side? That's for God to judge, because God knows what he's doing with people, and I don't.

No one here questions whether God has the prerogative to judge. The question is whether God has left us guessing as to the basis of his judgment. He has not. He has commanded that men be saved by faith in Christ. He has commanded that his children diligently tell unbelievers about the need for faith in Christ to be saved. Therefore, we do both men and God a disservice to do or say anything otherwise.

[hedrick]

No one here questions whether God has the prerogative to judge. The question is whether God has left us guessing as to the basis of his judgment. He has not. He has commanded that men be saved by faith in Christ. He has commanded that his children diligently tell unbelievers about the need for faith in Christ to be saved. Therefore, we do both men and God a disservice to do or say anything otherwise.

God has given us a way we can be confident. That doesn't prevent him from accepting others.

[RBerman]

God has given us a way we can be confident. That doesn't prevent him from accepting others.

Jesus is not "a way." He is "the way." The only way. Your argument amounts to wishful thinking.