As you have noticed (and we agree), this website is pretty awesome. Why you would choose to not be a member or logged in is baffling to both of us. The process is simple and costs you nothing, unless you really feel the urge to pay then we will not deny you that request. Back on point, once you become a member you will wonder why you put up with this notice all this time and ask yourself, "What was I thinking?" Being a tWebber is too awesome to pass up.
So stop playing ninja trying to act all stealth and lurking about (we see you), do you really want to be seen as a "lurker". Its like you are peeking in people's windows while they undress. How naughty of you. Does your mom know what you are doing right now? She agrees you should just register or login already. Good job.
i think the "chains" are allegorical. the bible speaks of the bondage of sin and I think it is equivalent here. They are bound in sin until the judgement. at least that is the idea I get from reading the commentaries in esword.
Sorry to resurrect a dead thread, but I came across this while working on my own demon thread.
I believe the Grigori/Watchers were Angels who fell separately from the War in Heaven.
From 1 Enoch (I know its not canon):
1 And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto 2 them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men 3 and beget us children.' And Semjaza, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not 4 indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.' And they all answered him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations 5 not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.' Then sware they all together and bound themselves 6 by mutual imprecations upon it. And they were in all two hundred; who descended in the days of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon, because they had sworn 7 and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. And these are the names of their leaders: Samlazaz, their leader, Araklba, Rameel, Kokablel, Tamlel, Ramlel, Danel, Ezeqeel, Baraqijal, 8 Asael, Armaros, Batarel, Ananel, Zaq1el, Samsapeel, Satarel, Turel, Jomjael, Sariel. These are their chiefs of tens.
1 And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms 2 and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants. And they 3 became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three thousand ells: Who consumed 4 all the acquisitions of men. And when men could no longer sustain them, the giants turned against 5 them and devoured mankind. And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and 6 fish, and to devour one another's flesh, and drink the blood. Then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones.
1 And Azazel taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all 2 colouring tinctures. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they 3 were led astray, and became corrupt in all their ways. Semjaza taught enchantments, and root-cuttings, 'Armaros the resolving of enchantments, Baraqijal (taught) astrology, Kokabel the constellations, Ezeqeel the knowledge of the clouds, Araqiel the signs of the earth, Shamsiel the signs of the sun, and Sariel the course of the moon. And as men perished, they cried, and their cry went up to heaven . . .
1 And then Michael, Uriel, Raphael, and Gabriel looked down from heaven and saw much blood being 2 shed upon the earth, and all lawlessness being wrought upon the earth. And they said one to another: 'The earth made without inhabitant cries the voice of their cryingst up to the gates of heaven. 3 And now to you, the holy ones of heaven, the souls of men make their suit, saying, "Bring our cause 4 before the Most High."' And they said to the Lord of the ages: 'Lord of lords, God of gods, King of kings, and God of the ages, the throne of Thy glory (standeth) unto all the generations of the 5 ages, and Thy name holy and glorious and blessed unto all the ages! Thou hast made all things, and power over all things hast Thou: and all things are naked and open in Thy sight, and Thou seest all 6 things, and nothing can hide itself from Thee. Thou seest what Azazel hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were (preserved) in heaven, which 7 men were striving to learn: And Semjaza, to whom Thou hast given authority to bear rule over his associates. And they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth, and have slept with the 9 women, and have defiled themselves, and revealed to them all kinds of sins. And the women have 10 borne giants, and the whole earth has thereby been filled with blood and unrighteousness. And now, behold, the souls of those who have died are crying and making their suit to the gates of heaven, and their lamentations have ascended: and cannot cease because of the lawless deeds which are 11 wrought on the earth. And Thou knowest all things before they come to pass, and Thou seest these things and Thou dost suffer them, and Thou dost not say to us what we are to do to them in regard to these.'
1 Then said the Most High, the Holy and Great One spake, and sent Uriel to the son of Lamech, 2 and said to him: 'Go to Noah and tell him in my name "Hide thyself!" and reveal to him the end that is approaching: that the whole earth will be destroyed, and a deluge is about to come 3 upon the whole earth, and will destroy all that is on it. And now instruct him that he may escape 4 and his seed may be preserved for all the generations of the world.' And again the Lord said to Raphael: 'Bind Azazel hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening 5 in the desert, which is in Dudael, and cast him therein. And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may 6,7 not see light. And on the day of the great judgement he shall be cast into the fire. And heal the earth which the angels have corrupted, and proclaim the healing of the earth, that they may heal the plague, and that all the children of men may not perish through all the secret things that the 8 Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons. And the whole earth has been corrupted 9 through the works that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe all sin.' And to Gabriel said the Lord: 'Proceed against the bastards and the reprobates, and against the children of fornication: and destroy [the children of fornication and] the children of the Watchers from amongst men [and cause them to go forth]: send them one against the other that they may destroy each other in 10 battle: for length of days shall they not have. And no request that they (i.e. their fathers) make of thee shall be granted unto their fathers on their behalf; for they hope to live an eternal life, and 11 that each one of them will live five hundred years.' And the Lord said unto Michael: 'Go, bind Semjaza and his associates who have united themselves with women so as to have defiled themselves 12 with them in all their uncleanness. And when their sons have slain one another, and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day of their judgement and of their consummation, till the judgement that is 13 for ever and ever is consummated. In those days they shall be led off to the abyss of fire: and 14 to the torment and the prison in which they shall be confined for ever. And whosoever shall be condemned and destroyed will from thenceforth be bound together with them to the end of all 15 generations.
Make your own attitude that of Christ Jesus, who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be used for His own advantage.
Instead He emptied Himself by assuming the form of a slave, taking on the likeness of men. And when He had come as a man in His external form, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death—even to death on a cross.
For this reason God also highly exalted Him and gave Him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow—of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth — and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. ~ Philippians 2:5-11
Do you know if the word occurs in any other literature besides Homer?
Originally posted by A Cup of No
I just can't wrap my mind around the fact that Peter, a fisherman, would've been reading Homer. But I could certainly be wrong.
Maybe Paul mentioned it chit-chatting with Peter at some point? After all, Paul, at the very least, seems to me to have had knowledge of Greek culture and literature. Perhaps he had read Homer and later mentioned the story in a discussion with Peter? Idle speculation, of course, but who knows what all they may have said to one another during their encounters.
Originally posted by A Cup of No
Perhaps also through popular usage the word had become a literary allusion that had lost its ties to its original piece of literature.
Could very well be. I would imagine that Greek religious ideas would have been part of the common knowledge of the culture.
Anyway, my personal perspective on demons is that, rather than being fallen angels, they're the souls of the Nephilim from Genesis 6. At least I'm not alone in that idea.
My suspicion with regards to Tartarus is that if Peter meant it to be understood in the normal way a hearer of his words would probably have understood it, he isn't simply talking about the earth. Otherwise, I personally would be at a loss as to why he (or his anamuensis, if he was writing through one at the time) would select the word "Tartarus" without clarifying it, since I think that a hearer would understand Tartarus as a "nether realm" related to imprisonment. But, I'm hardly an expert, so simply consider that the view I presently hold.
Oh, and as for the "chains vs. pits" issue, I don't think I know enough Greek to properly evaluate how to translate seirais zophou in 2 Peter 2:4, but I assume that Jude talks about the same then when he speaks of:
Jude uses the word desmois, a form of desmon, and that seems a more certain indication that the angels in question were regarded to be chained or bound somehow (which would fit with the idea of Tartarus as a prison where beings are chained or bound, of course). As to whether that's literal or metaphorical...
Last edited by JB; July 29th 2006 at 01:50 PM.
"If God has given [his people] such joy now, joy in their faith, in their hope, in love, in the truth of his scriptures, what kind of joy is he preparing for them at the end? If he feeds them like this on the journey, how will he feast them in their homeland?"
--Augustine of Hippo
"It cannot be that the people should grow in grace unless they give themselves to reading. A reading people will always be a knowing people."
"Wherever men are still theological there is still some chance of their being logical."
There are two theories current in Christianity as to who his the author of the Pentateuch (which includes Genesis). The traditional, conservative view is that Moses composed it. The more modern view...
TheologyWeb was founded in January 2003 as the personal hobby of dizzle, yxboom and their cohort $cirisme. The site is maintained and owned by dizzle, and yxboom. It continues to function by an entirely volunteer Administrative and Moderating team. TheologyWeb does not exist to make a profit or promote a particular denomination or secondary view witihin Christianity, nor is it under the purview of any denomination or church. Our leadership team, consisting of laypersons and leaders within various churches, holds each other in mutual accountability for the decisions of the site, whose decisions are final. With that said, please bring back Invader Zim!