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Thread: Camels in Genesis

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kbertsche View Post
    But the issue is not a slam-dunk.
    To those to whom literalism is an a priori belief, no evidence would be a "slam dunk." When one takes an a priori position, evidence is subservient to belief.

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    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
    One comment here
    How much physical evidence would you expect (especially if orality was valued over written word)?
    I do not see any culture in history valuing oral communication over the written word, and find no evidence that the Jews did. All the cultures and kingdoms around Israel had the written word. It s likely that if Jews used the written word at all it was Canaanite or Babylonian. Up until sometime after ~1000 BCE the Jewish tribes were more predominantly a pastoral people.

    The linguistic evidence isn't exactly much and the text we have now could have been a transliteration.
    The only evidence we have of a translation is from existing Canaanite Ugarite and Babylonian cuneiform tablets, actually with residual vocabulary and religious beliefs

    Here BTW is Glenn Miller's argument for a pre-exilic date.
    http://www.christianthinktank.com/qmoses1.html
    Glenn Miller is an AT executive apologist and not a scholar. He mainly relies on internal scriptural evidence and tradition, which I find inadequate. Miller provides conjecture that Moses wrote the 5 books in an earlier Canaanite or Babylonian script lacks any tablets at all to confirm the claim. It also presents a different claim then your 'preferring oral over the written word. I have no doubt oral Jewish traditions were included in the 5 books when written at some time after 1000 BCE likely about 700 BCE when camels were present as animals of burden and the Jewish tribes were trading, and developed a language.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outis View Post
    To those to whom literalism is an a priori belief, no evidence would be a "slam dunk." When one takes an a priori position, evidence is subservient to belief.
    Perhaps. But the same argument could be made of those who take an a priori position of atheistic naturalism (i.e. God does not exist, God did not inspire any holy books.) Evidence for God is subservient to their atheistic commitment. The argument applies both ways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kbertsche View Post
    Perhaps. But the same argument could be made of those who take an a priori position of atheistic naturalism (i.e. God does not exist, God did not inspire any holy books.) Evidence for God is subservient to their atheistic commitment. The argument applies both ways.
    That doesn't apply with someone like me who takes no position on the existence of God. That also does not work for those mainstream scholars who are theists, or even Christian. There is a large middle ground that does not fit into your proposed dichotomy.

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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outis View Post
    Now, one potentially huge problem with the article: while this is the earliest they have discovered, what happens if there are more skeletons out there that have not been discovered? This is the biggest pitfall of such claims.
    Right, they're arguing from silence, in archaeology, no less! Not a good idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Right, they're arguing from silence, in archaeology, no less! Not a good idea.
    Not entirely arguing from silence, as there are also no contemporary Canaanite records or iconography with camels (as there are in Egyptian and Mesopotamian records), but to my mind, it's still too uncertain.

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    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [URL="http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/member.php?221-Kbertsche"
    Kbertsche[/URL] ]Perhaps. But the same argument could be made of those who take an a priori position of atheistic naturalism (i.e. God does not exist, God did not inspire any holy books.) Evidence for God is subservient to their atheistic commitment. The argument applies both ways.
    Amen!


    It applies to any a priori position - including the position that the answer cannot be or is not known. It's silly to focus on the suspicion that the other person is arguing his/her position irrationally simply because of their basis. It's quite possible for a priori fallacies to crop in debate - but assuming them where unproven is a faulty argument in and of itself. Hence refusing to address the argument or evidence in favor of claiming the other person is merely making an a priori fallacy is itself fallacious.

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    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Not entirely arguing from silence, as there are also no contemporary Canaanite records or iconography with camels (as there are in Egyptian and Mesopotamian records),
    ...
    Um, that IS an argument from silence. 'There are no records', even if true, is not the same thing as 'it didn't happen'.

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    God, family, chicken! Bill the Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outis View Post
    Not entirely arguing from silence, as there are also no contemporary Canaanite records or iconography with camels (as there are in Egyptian and Mesopotamian records), but to my mind, it's still too uncertain.
    There is Ugaritic evidence that lists camels in a list of domesticated animals.

    Heide, Martin. 2011 “The Domestication of the Camel: Biological, Archaeological and Inscriptional Evidence from Mesopotamia, Egypt, Israel and Arabia, and Literary Evidence from the Hebrew Bible.” Ugarit-Forschungen


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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    There is Ugaritic evidence that lists camels in a list of domesticated animals.

    Heide, Martin. 2011 “The Domestication of the Camel: Biological, Archaeological and Inscriptional Evidence from Mesopotamia, Egypt, Israel and Arabia, and Literary Evidence from the Hebrew Bible.” Ugarit-Forschungen
    Ugaritic, but what _date_? These little details are kinda important!

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