why do theists fear living without a deity?

[Griggsy]

Do theists fear to live without a deity ,because as Francisco Ayala claims for himself and other theists , they dread death and they need a meaning for life from on high?That seems to suggest that Freud and Albert Ellis have been right that religion is a neurosis. A counselor can help one overcome that dread. And as far meaning,I am my own meanings. We naturalists live meaningful lives.So do most theists.Most people are fine most of the time.Most theists live fine with a dieity. H onor reason.

[Trout]

Do theists fear to live without a deity

Speaking for myself; no.

It's more fearsome to believe as I do, that the God of the Bible exists.

Grigsy:
H onor reason.

Are you implying that theists don't "honor reason"?

[wattsr1]

Do theists fear to live without a deity ,because as Francisco Ayala claims for himself and other theists , they dread death and they need a meaning for life from on high?That seems to suggest that Freud and Albert Ellis have been right that religion is a neurosis. A counselor can help one overcome that dread. And as far meaning,I am my own meanings. We naturalists live meaningful lives.So do most theists.Most people are fine most of the time.Most theists live fine with a dieity. H onor reason.

Gidday Griggsy,

I may be wrong, but your thread starter appears to be aimed at more of a theist/atheist type of discussion. Maybe you should ask the mods. to move it into apologetics?

You should also get many more replies there.

Regards, Roland

[kendemyer]

Griggsy,

The thread is titled, "why do theists fear living without a deity?"

This is a science oriented section of TWEB. With that in mind, where are your social science studies showing that theists fear living without a deity?

Also, at a debate board the burden of proof is upon the claimant and I have yet to see you offer any evidence that theists fear living without a deity.

Also, one can see through the work of Paul Vitz that many of leading proponents of atheism have are not exactly paragons of mental health. Professor Vitz did a study of the most prominent professed atheist in the last 400 years and it seems as if those individuals were or are not paragons of mental health (Here is a synopsis of Professor Vitz's data: www.probe.org/docs/atheists.html and
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/vitz.txt ).

Whether of not the group that Professor Vitz studied had bad relationships because of their fathers and because they were rebellious sons seems to me to be an open question. Plus I cannot say I am a strong believer in determinism (your environment determines your future) as I strongly believe in freewill (although your environment can influence you). Ultimately, men have the freedom to reject God or not reject God. Ultimately many societies are beginning to drift away from excessive determinism and demand personal accountability and I think this is a good thing.

[wattsr1]

Griggsy,

The thread is titled, "why do theists fear living without a deity?"

This is a science oriented section of TWEB. With that in mind, where are your social science studies showing that theists fear living without a deity?

Also, at a debate board the burden of proof is upon the claimant and I have yet to see you offer any evidence that theists fear living without a deity.

Kenny,

A sensible post for once. Well argued.

Almost worth a pearl or two. (I won't though ).

Regards, Roland

[jordanriver]

Do theists fear to live without a deity ,because as Francisco Ayala claims for himself and other theists , they dread death and they need a meaning for life from on high?That seems to suggest that Freud and Albert Ellis have been right that religion is a neurosis. A counselor can help one overcome that dread. And as far meaning,I am my own meanings. We naturalists live meaningful lives.So do most theists.Most people are fine most of the time.Most theists live fine with a dieity. H onor reason.

I got along fine when I didn't know for sure if there was a deity. I was happy and I wasn't afraid of anything. If I knew for sure now that there wasn"t a deity, it would be like before. But now I know better and I fear the deity, so I try to be a better person and more socially concerned. Otherwise, with no deity, I would only be concerned about myself.

jr

[jason]

Do atheists fear to live with a deity ,because as someguy claims for himself and other atheists , they dread responsibility and they need to avoid accountability for life from on high?That seems to suggest that Paul may have been right that a-religion is a neurosis. A counselor can help one overcome that need to be irresponsibile. Do more than pay lipservice to reason

[ApologiaPhoenix]

Griggsy. I'm wondering why I should answer you on this thread when I'm still waiting for you on another thread.

[Meh_Gerbil]

Seems to me that a G_d could be a whole lot more of something to be afraid of than nothing being out there. You could have asked, "Do theists like being afraid?".

I don't find the idea of dying and becoming 'nothing' to be something to be afraid of on any level.

[grmorton]

Do theists fear to live without a deity ,because as Francisco Ayala claims for himself and other theists , they dread death and they need a meaning for life from on high?That seems to suggest that Freud and Albert Ellis have been right that religion is a neurosis. A counselor can help one overcome that dread. And as far meaning,I am my own meanings. We naturalists live meaningful lives.So do most theists.Most people are fine most of the time.Most theists live fine with a dieity. H onor reason.

I don't fear living without a deity but I do think it is impossible to have existence without one. The question of why there is something rather than nothing is a question science can not answer. If you start the universe with a quantum fluctuation, you have to have the vacuum as a pre-existing material against which the fluctuation occurs. So, how did the vacuum come into existence? What is before it? And what was before whatever that was?

Something has to be granted eternal pre-existence and that is an attribute quite compatible with what people call God. If you chose to have an eternally pre-existing vacuum, that is doing nothing more than ascribing an attribute of God to a physical object--One might ask in what manner this differs from classical idolatry in which god like characters are ascribed to a physical object, a statue.

In either case, the question of existence is a metaphysical assertion and your belief that some matter or field was pre-existing eternally is no better nor no worse than my belief that God was pre-existing eternally.

One could try to have a self-caused universe, something like a jin of time travel where a person meets someone who tells them how to make a time machine. The person builds the machine and then travels back in time to tell himself at an earlier age how to build a time machine. The knowledge of how to build a time machine is self-caused. But if one does that, he is also ascribing a divine property to nature--self-existence.

Now, no one doubts that you live a very fine and meaningful life but religion does do somethings for people that not having a religion doesn't do. First is charity. Studies show that church-goers are more charitable. Such studies have been carried out in several countries but I will cite Canada:

[cite]"The 32 per cent of Canadians who are religiously active contribute 65 per cent of direct charitable donations. As one might expect, this group is responsible for 86 per cent of donations to religious bodies; yet even in the secular sector, the religiously active provide 42 per cent of the $2.1 billion raised by direct giving. "
http://givingandvolunteering.ca/pdf/n-vc1sen.pdf#search='Charitable%20giving%20religion'
[/cite]

Religious people seem to have a longer lifespan

[cite]"Religious attendance is associated with U. S. adult mortality in a graded fashion: People who never attend exhibit 1.897 times the risk of death in the follow-up period compared with people who attend more than once a week. This translates into a seven-year difference in life expectancy at age 20 between those who never attend and those who attend more than once a week." Robert A. Hummer et al, "Religious INvolvment and the U. S. Adult MOrtality," Demography, Vol. 36, No. 2 (May, 1999) , pp. 273-285, p. 273[/cite]

Religious people have built more hospitals than the non-religious. One can find hospitals built by all the major denominations and many of the minor denominations--e.g. Seventh Day adventists who had an excellent hospital in Ardmore Oklahoma where I grew up part of my youth.

I would also note that a belief in hell in a country directly correlates with the prosperity of that country. It seems that it cuts down on the corruption we would all like to engage in. This is from a study by the Fed http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...2.asp?GT1=4244

So, I would say, religion is good for the world, contrary to what many atheists believe. And I get tired of atheists thinking, smugly, that their beleif system is superior to that of the theist. It may make you feel good, but that doesn't mean you have to be evangelical about it.

[wattsr1]

I don't fear living without a deity but I do think it is impossible to have existence without one. The question of why there is something rather than nothing is a question science can not answer. If you start the universe with a quantum fluctuation, you have to have the vacuum as a pre-existing material against which the fluctuation occurs. So, how did the vacuum come into existence? What is before it? And what was before whatever that was?

Something has to be granted eternal pre-existence and that is an attribute quite compatible with what people call God. If you chose to have an eternally pre-existing vacuum, that is doing nothing more than ascribing an attribute of God to a physical object--One might ask in what manner this differs from classical idolatry in which god like characters are ascribed to a physical object, a statue.

In either case, the question of existence is a metaphysical assertion and your belief that some matter or field was pre-existing eternally is no better nor no worse than my belief that God was pre-existing eternally.

One could try to have a self-caused universe, something like a jin of time travel where a person meets someone who tells them how to make a time machine. The person builds the machine and then travels back in time to tell himself at an earlier age how to build a time machine. The knowledge of how to build a time machine is self-caused. But if one does that, he is also ascribing a divine property to nature--self-existence.

Now, no one doubts that you live a very fine and meaningful life but religion does do somethings for people that not having a religion doesn't do. First is charity. Studies show that church-goers are more charitable. Such studies have been carried out in several countries but I will cite Canada:

[cite]"The 32 per cent of Canadians who are religiously active contribute 65 per cent of direct charitable donations. As one might expect, this group is responsible for 86 per cent of donations to religious bodies; yet even in the secular sector, the religiously active provide 42 per cent of the $2.1 billion raised by direct giving. "
http://givingandvolunteering.ca/pdf/n-vc1sen.pdf#search='Charitable%20giving%20religion'
[/cite]

Religious people seem to have a longer lifespan

[cite]"Religious attendance is associated with U. S. adult mortality in a graded fashion: People who never attend exhibit 1.897 times the risk of death in the follow-up period compared with people who attend more than once a week. This translates into a seven-year difference in life expectancy at age 20 between those who never attend and those who attend more than once a week." Robert A. Hummer et al, "Religious INvolvment and the U. S. Adult MOrtality," Demography, Vol. 36, No. 2 (May, 1999) , pp. 273-285, p. 273[/cite]

Religious people have built more hospitals than the non-religious. One can find hospitals built by all the major denominations and many of the minor denominations--e.g. Seventh Day adventists who had an excellent hospital in Ardmore Oklahoma where I grew up part of my youth.

I would also note that a belief in hell in a country directly correlates with the prosperity of that country. It seems that it cuts down on the corruption we would all like to engage in. This is from a study by the Fed http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...2.asp?GT1=4244

So, I would say, religion is good for the world, contrary to what many atheists believe. And I get tired of atheists thinking, smugly, that their beleif system is superior to that of the theist. It may make you feel good, but that doesn't mean you have to be evangelical about it.

Gidday Glenn,

I am reading an interesting book by Jim Wallis "God's Politics: Why the American Right Gets it Wrong and the Left Doesn't Get It".

Have a look at the following link if you wish to see how "weak" theists are, in particular the Open Letter from Jim Wallis to Jesse Ventura (A mayor of one of your cities. I forget which one):-

http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?actio...&article=000151

Wallis is another of those deeply conservative, but very sensible (IMHO) Christians, who got a bit annoyed by an interview Ventura had with Playboy. In response he wrote the letter.

Have a read. It is interesting.

Your note about existence? Existence seems to be one attribute of the universe which is fundamental - for both the theist and the atheist. Ultimately we both have to explain the existence of something. If we choose not to, then we can begin explaining just by accepting the existence of whatever it is that we believe as the ultimate reality and go on from there.


Regards, Roland

[grmorton]

Gidday Glenn,

I am reading an interesting book by Jim Wallis "God's Politics: Why the American Right Gets it Wrong and the Left Doesn't Get It".

Have a look at the following link if you wish to see how "weak" theists are, in particular the Open Letter from Jim Wallis to Jesse Ventura (A mayor of one of your cities. I forget which one):-

http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?actio...&article=000151

Wallis is another of those deeply conservative, but very sensible (IMHO) Christians, who got a bit annoyed by an interview Ventura had with Playboy. In response he wrote the letter.

Have a read. It is interesting.

Your note about existence? Existence seems to be one attribute of the universe which is fundamental - for both the theist and the atheist. Ultimately we both have to explain the existence of something. If we choose not to, then we can begin explaining just by accepting the existence of whatever it is that we believe as the ultimate reality and go on from there.


Regards, Roland

I listened to the audio of Jim. He is a fascinating individual. I agree with his critique to both the left and the right. The right (the theological side I am on) does indeed tend to ignore the poor too much. But the left seems to want to segregate religion from public life in a manner not consistent with either our history or our freedom.

As to existence, you got precisely my point. It is a metaphysical position and since SOMETHING has to exist forever in order for us to have existence, it might as well be God. But in any event, we are postulating a metaphysical property to the world or to something in order for existence itself to be explained. As far as I can see, doing that is the only way to explain existence itself.

[technomage]

Why do you assume that, because one person said he was afraid, all theists are "afraid of living without a deity?"

[Darth Executor]

Why do you assume that, because one person said he was afraid, all theists are "afraid of living without a deity?"

This guy is a troll Justin. Haven't I taught you anything?

[technomage]

This guy is a troll Justin. Haven't I taught you anything?

Well, so are you, but I still talk to you.

Sorry, Darth--couldn't resist.