why do theists fear living without a deity?

[Darth Executor]

Well, so are you, but I still talk to you.

Sorry, Darth--couldn't resist.

Hey, tweb is my bridge. No troll trolls his own headquarters. I troll other boards.

[zorathruster]

We naturalists live meaningful lives.So do most theists.Most people are fine most of the time.Most theists live fine with a dieity. H onor reason.

I believe Pascal Boyer, "Religion Explained" did the best job of answering your question. To attempt the consolidate his work in a post would be futile. Additional works include the recent book by Daniel Dennett, and works by Michael Shermer.

There are a multitude of rational reasons why people embrace religion and until those mechanisms are overcome by rational debate, religion and deities shall remain.

Z

[reyvin]

I believe Pascal Boyer, "Religion Explained" did the best job of answering your question. To attempt the consolidate his work in a post would be futile. Additional works include the recent book by Daniel Dennett, and works by Michael Shermer.

There are a multitude of rational reasons why people embrace religion and until those mechanisms are overcome by rational debate, religion and deities shall remain.

Z

I've not read the works you cite however; does it not make sense if a supreme deity who wants to be known have reasons for us to seek him? Regardless of what the reasons are that Boyer, Freud or anyone else lists it seems fair enough to think that there should be reasons and this has no weight as a weapon against religion whatsoever when realized.

[Griggsy]

Hey, tweb is my bridge. No troll trolls his own headquarters. I troll other boards.

Vitz 's argument is nothing.I live without a god,but I am care for others.My self -absorption is , I daresay,no more than anyone else's.I reject a god for good reasons,not from a desire to escape responsibility. I do , however ,reject the moral code of the ignoramuses who without input from on high who composed the morality of the Bible. I reject its ethnic cleansing .She who turns the other cheek might just end up in the hospital.It tolerated slavery. See volume one o f Stein's anthology on atheism to see examples of pagan morality in parallel column with Christian morality.

[reyvin]

Vitz 's argument is nothing.I live without a god,but I am care for others.My self -absorption is , I daresay,no more than anyone else's.I reject a god for good reasons,not from a desire to escape responsibility. I do , however ,reject the moral code of the ignoramuses who without input from on high who composed the morality of the Bible. I reject its ethnic cleansing .She who turns the other cheek might just end up in the hospital.It tolerated slavery. See volume one o f Stein's anthology on atheism to see examples of pagan morality in parallel column with Christian morality.

If you're truly seeking and interested, Christianity on Trial : Arguments Against Anti-Religious Bigotry by Vincent Caroll answers these charges.

[Kulindrichnus]

Your note about existence? Existence seems to be one attribute of the universe which is fundamental - for both the theist and the atheist. Ultimately we both have to explain the existence of something. If we choose not to, then we can begin explaining just by accepting the existence of whatever it is that we believe as the ultimate reality and go on from there.

Quite so. It has always seemed odd to me that people are in the habit of proclaiming that a question cannot be answered, and then either saying that one 'has' to answer it nevertheless, or simply going on to give an outline of what their own personal fancy might have the answer be.

Questions which cannot be answered are exactly that. By definition there is nothing to be gained by trying.

K

[Kulindrichnus]

Religious people seem to have a longer lifespan


Religious people have built more hospitals than the non-religious.


I would also note that a belief in hell in a country directly correlates with the prosperity of that country.

So, I would say, religion is good for the world, contrary to what many atheists believe.

All the examples you give are from the developed world of N America. It is some extrapolation (I'm not saying its false) to extend this to the whole world. Many of the impoverished parts of the 3rd World are highly religious. I think it unlikely that 3rd World countries have such a marked difference in life expectancies; and I think it very unlikely that a widespread belief in hell is likely to bring them some kind of economic boom. You need more data to make claims like this.

I don't disagree with the stats you do give; religious people are always happier than the irreligious and they are indeed more charitable. But this goes for the developed world only. Globally, I think it is less than the whole picture.

K

[bigsplit]

We do fear living without a deity. The problem is no one can prove one does not exist. To live without one would contradict millions of years of ancestrial heretage. No, I have never seen a miricle....or do I see them everyday. I just don't know. If I were to say I do not believe in Deity, would that eliminate the possibility? What has happened in cultures that have rejected deity...not many examples....let's see The Soviet Union....who wants that? The supression in China...no thanks.

So the fear is based on uncertainty, we would never want to live in a world that could be so egotistical and misguided as to dismiss the existance of a Deity when such FAITH has thousands of years of tradition. Remember, we admit our beliefs are based on faith.....and rightly so. Atheist claim their beliefs are based on facts and science. When science itself admits that Deity is untestable, and therefore science cannot prove anything. Either position is based on faith. Now, who has it right, is it not the one who admits what science tells us, that our belief in deity is based on faith. Who is wiser?

[grmorton]

All the examples you give are from the developed world of N America. It is some extrapolation (I'm not saying its false) to extend this to the whole world. Many of the impoverished parts of the 3rd World are highly religious. I think it unlikely that 3rd World countries have such a marked difference in life expectancies; and I think it very unlikely that a widespread belief in hell is likely to bring them some kind of economic boom. You need more data to make claims like this.

I don't disagree with the stats you do give; religious people are always happier than the irreligious and they are indeed more charitable. But this goes for the developed world only. Globally, I think it is less than the whole picture.

K

Interestingly, the Fed's survey of societies about their belief in the afterlife included 3rd world countries--lots of them. I have read the origina fed survey, but I am currently in the States and it is on my computer in Beijing so I couldn't give a direct reference to it.

But I would ask this: why wouldn't belief that you will be punished in the afterlife for corruption today tend to limit the amount of corruption one wants to engage in? If you know much about the economies of the 3rd world, most of them are highly corrupt, requiring bribes, nepotism which add higher cost to the projects. Nigeria is a case in point. Even a Nigerian who works in the oil industry told me that he recognized corruption as being the single biggest thing keeping his people poor, and he had no understanding of why his people were like that. He of course, was working outside his native land where he could make a decent living without that corruption.

How much baksheesh do you think is required in the Middle East to do business? How many brothers-in-law do you have to go through to get governmental approval for things? In my observation of the global business climate, corruption is the single biggest factor in making people's lives miserable.

Take the recent actions of Chavez in Venezuela. He has demanded that oil companies hand him a much larger share of the projects (many already completed). He claims that the money is for the Venezuelan people, yet somehow I suspect Swiss bank accounts will see it before the venezuelans do. Riding roughshod over previous contracts makes businesses unlikely to risk their money there next time. That means fewer jobs for Venezuelans, a less robust economy. Exxon has left Venezuela and the projects they were working on there. Jim Jubak writes:

Jim Jubak

No need to feel sorry for the Exxon Mobils of the world while you're filling up your tank with $3-a-gallon gas. Who can feel sorry for a company that earned $36 billion in 2005, more than any U.S. company ever?

But as you seethe about $3 gas now and worry about $4 gas next year, remember that big oil isn't calling the shots anymore. Venezuela has forced ExxonMobil (XOM, news, msgs) to slink out of the country and has made Chevron (CVX, news, msgs) and ConocoPhillips (COP, news, msgs) take a 75% hike in royalties and a 50% increase in taxes and say, "Thank you, sir, may I please have another?"

© source where applicable

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/..._jubak.asp?msn

Exxon, by the way is only the 12th largest oil company--the 11 bigger ones are government owned. Chad even forced Exxon to pay more royalty under the threat of shutting down the pipeline. And people think the oil companies are the problem! Oh well back to the subject of corruption.

If I recall, you are in the UK. Are you aware that corruption in Russia is going to eventually affect your ability to burn natural gas in your home? Russia is telling companies and countries to let Russia buy the gas pipeline companies or there will be no natural gas for you. What do you think Russia will charge when they own all the gas resources (the UK is dropping in gas production) and the pipelines and have you over the proverbial barrel? What else will they want after they own all the pipeline companies? Will they want your taxes as part of a new Russian empire? Their corruption, will make you poor. Have fun with it.

I would like to hear an alternative means to stop corruption other than the "God is going to get you" scheme? Do you have an alternative plan to stop Russia's corruption from making you cold in the winter in your old age?

[Tobias Reiper]

Do theists fear to live without a deity ,because as Francisco Ayala claims for himself and other theists , they dread death and they need a meaning for life from on high?

Not at all. If I didn't know of the existence of God it would not bother me one bit that our existence is just a bunch of chemical reactions. In fact, it would actually be easier.

I wouldn't have to feel guilty about some of the banners on some sites I visit stirring up my hormones (they're game development sites, but the banners are frequently ads featuring scantily clad women for dating sites), I could lie to my parents to keep them off my back by telling them I have a job while I'm still looking for one without having to worry about long term consequences, and my blood pressure wouldn't rise every time I hear about the antics of the ACLU and Planned Parenthood.

Now I have a question for you. Why are atheists bothered that people believe in God? According to your world view we're just collections of self replicating chemicals. The chaotic nature of our chance existence would dictate that the arrangement of these chemicals would vary from person to person, so shouldn't the naturalists see a belief in God as a natural occurance, since in the end, every thought is determined by arrangement of the chemicals that compose our synapses?

Why fiddle around with nature by convincing a series of chemicals to live contrary to the way they were compiled just because they vibrate the air around you or cause light rays to hit your eyes in patterns that cause what you percieve to be a negative chemical reaction? You know what vibrations and patterns in light cause adverse chemical reactions in you, so why not just avoid the places where you know such will exist and let us go on about life the way our chemicals dictate?

And even if you can't avoid it, there will come a time when such vibrations and light patterns will have no effect on you, and it won't matter to you that they ever did, so why even bother with this subject?

[Kulindrichnus]

Glenn

I would like to hear an alternative means to stop corruption other than the "God is going to get you" scheme? Do you have an alternative plan to stop Russia's corruption from making you cold in the winter in your old age?

Is that supposed to be an intelligent argument for believing in God, or more precisely, for telling the Russians- or anyone else- that they ought to believe in hell? Come on. This is just the old argument that Religion brings some kind of greater morality, which is quite ironic given that you are exhorting me to preach Hellfire to the Russians in order to keep my own toes warm! This is such an odd thing to say that I'm not sure if it is really intended for me or for theistic lurkers. You and I have debated too many times, and have (I hope) too much mutual respect to really engage on points of this sort.

K

[grmorton]

Glenn



Is that supposed to be an intelligent argument for believing in God, or more precisely, for telling the Russians- or anyone else- that they ought to believe in hell? Come on.

No, it is an outline of what corruption does. You doubted that corruption did that so I outlined why I thought it did. And it is not at all unreasonable to ask you how you would solve the problem.

This is just the old argument that Religion brings some kind of greater morality, which is quite ironic given that you are exhorting me to preach Hellfire to the Russians in order to keep my own toes warm! This is such an odd thing to say that I'm not sure if it is really intended for me or for theistic lurkers. You and I have debated too many times, and have (I hope) too much mutual respect to really engage on points of this sort.

K

Then you misunderstood what I was saying to your claim that

All the examples you give are from the developed world of N America. It is some extrapolation (I'm not saying its false) to extend this to the whole world. Many of the impoverished parts of the 3rd World are highly religious. I think it unlikely that 3rd World countries have such a marked difference in life expectancies; and I think it very unlikely that a widespread belief in hell is likely to bring them some kind of economic boom.

I tried to say why the 3rd world was having economic troubles, and suggest a solution to their troubles. If you have no solution to one of the main causes of their misery, too bad. I guess before we try to tell them to believe in eternal retribution, we should let them all lie in their misery. [sarcastic mode on] It would certainly be such a worse thing to have them beleive in hell than live in prosperity.[sarcastic mode off]

[maudman]

Do theists fear to live without a deity ,because as Francisco Ayala claims for himself and other theists , they dread death and they need a meaning for life from on high?That seems to suggest that Freud and Albert Ellis have been right that religion is a neurosis. A counselor can help one overcome that dread. And as far meaning,I am my own meanings. We naturalists live meaningful lives.So do most theists.Most people are fine most of the time.Most theists live fine with a dieity. H onor reason.

It might have more to do with living without closer.

As a christian, Living with ones self isn't good enough. Our cause is an anti thesis to what many claim as a meaningful life. Not that life doesn't have meaning.

But when our God says things like "he that loves his life shall loose it, and he that love not this life shall find it everlasting," Meaningful is relative. In this life, where most the christian got off track, forgot were born in hell ruled by laws of biological nessesity. We have two concerns we try to live the life that is coming, while existing in a life that is going.

We have hopes of a real meaningful life and it is not one of biological nessessity. At least that was the way of it in the beginning of our faith. Until the creampuff christian came on the seen.

The gap is much bigger than you have stated and the causation of the genuine christian is not one that benifits him in this world but the one to come.

Peace

[Matthew]

Do atheists fear to live with a deity ,because as someguy claims for himself and other atheists , they dread responsibility and they need to avoid accountability for life from on high?That seems to suggest that Paul may have been right that a-religion is a neurosis. A counselor can help one overcome that need to be irresponsibile. Do more than pay lipservice to reason

I don't fear to live with any deity. I know many Christians love to accuse atheists like me of trying to avoid being accountible to a Creator by finding any excuse that they can not to be a Christian but if I really knew deep down inside that there's not only a God but that it was specifically a personal God like Yahweh and that the Christian claims about him was true, I would not even be alive today. Seriously, why would I delay the inevitability of Hell? If there was a Creator to be accountible, I would just get it over with and take my rightful place in judgement and "hell". I don't want to spend "eternity" with "Christ" or many of the Christians I encounter. I don't know who your statement above would apply to but I am a definite exemption.

Oh, and one more thing. No appeals to my need for help, counseling, or any of that crap. I don't care if Christians think that what I have written here is disturbing and that I need help. For any Christians who would offer any unsolicited advice for me to get help- I beg you, absolutely BEG you, to ask me if I care whether you think I need help or not. Please ask me if I care. Any judgemental comments that I need help or counseling or any of that garbage is spit in the wind to me.

With that said,

Peace,

Matthew

[jason]

I don't fear to live with any deity. I know many Christians love to accuse atheists like me of trying to avoid being accountible to a Creator by finding any excuse that they can not to be a Christian but if I really knew deep down inside that there's not only a God but that it was specifically a personal God like Yahweh and that the Christian claims about him was true, I would not even be alive today. Seriously, why would I delay the inevitability of Hell? If there was a Creator to be accountible, I would just get it over with and take my rightful place in judgement and "hell". I don't want to spend "eternity" with "Christ" or many of the Christians I encounter. I don't know who your statement above would apply to but I am a definite exemption.

Oh, and one more thing. No appeals to my need for help, counseling, or any of that crap. I don't care if Christians think that what I have written here is disturbing and that I need help. For any Christians who would offer any unsolicited advice for me to get help- I beg you, absolutely BEG you, to ask me if I care whether you think I need help or not. Please ask me if I care. Any judgemental comments that I need help or counseling or any of that garbage is spit in the wind to me.

With that said,

Peace,

Matthew

I was just making fun of the idiotic drivel in the OP