new idea about psalm 22

[manwithdream]

I am new to this internet site, and I think I put my idea in the wrong place, apologetics 301. maybe this is a better place to discuss my ideas for psalm 22.

in psalm 22:7, the writer calls himself a worm . Later, in psalm 22: 17, he says "dogs have surrounded me...like a lion, my hands and my feet, I will count all of my bones ..." Some people say it says "they have pierced my hands and my feet..." because "like a lion " does not make sense.

I think it might make sense if he is trying to say that he is not like a worm anymore, but now he is like a lion. A worm does not have hands, feet, or bones, but a lion does. maybe he is saying "dogs have surrounded me...like a lion, my hands and my feet I will count, all of my bones they will see".

I think he is saying he is now standing up to his enemies. at the beginning of the psalm he is surrounded by strong bulls and a lion, but now he is like a lion and they are like dogs.

Psalm 22:9 could say "a heap is to the L-rd" instead of "let him commit himself to the L-rd" . psalm 22:15 says his bones have parted. If your bones part, then you collapse into a heap. As a heap, you would not see his bones holding him up, but if they were back together, you could see them supporting him. Maybe psalm 22:17 means he is not a heap anymore, so his bones can be seen. These are unusual ideas ,but maybe they make sense. What does anyone else think?

[El-I-Yah]

ManwithDream, welcome, I too am new to this forum and have been researching the same Psalm. It would seem to me if David had lion like hands and feet, he would not have fear of dogs, bulls, or Pagans? He did after all slay Goliath. Certainly, King David had enemies and at times they sorrounded him. But it is hard to ignore the stunningly detailed similarity his description has to the whipping, scoffing, beating, and cruficixion that Yahshua of Nazereth endured.

I find the verses as most translations I've studied, both Jewish (JPS Tanach based on the 11th century CE Masoretic texts) and Christian (King James, NIV, NASB...) to make little sense in the context of the language of the rest of the Psalm. I believe the BCE texts of the Dead Sea Scrolls (1st-2nd Century BCE) and Greek Septuagint (3rd Century BCE) to be more reliable and when rendered in English are wholly consistant. Let me know what you make of the following:

“My God (‘el – God singular), my God, why (mah – by what means, how long and to what end) have You forsaken (azab – abandoned and relinquished Me, left Me desolate, separated from Me and departed from Me, damned and deserted) Me? Far (rachowq – remote in distance and time, separated in space-time; alienated and no longer in a state of close association; from rachaq, meaning to be removed and distant, to be sent off and to go far) away from (min – out of and separated from) Yahushua, My salvation (yashuw’ah (יְשׁוּעָה) – Yahushua; a compound name derived from Yahuweh and yasha’ (יָשַׁע) to save, salvation, and Savior) are the words of my groaning (sheagah – roaring anguish). (Psalm 22:1)

O my God (‘elohiym), I call out (qara’ – summon) in the daytime (yowmam), but You do not answer (‘anah – respond); and by night (layil) but I have no rest (dumiyah – silence or relief; repose from laying down in death).” (Psalm 22:2)

“But You are the Set-Apart One (‘attah qodesh). You live and remain (yashab – dwell throughout time; inhabit and establish a home; marry and restore). You are the praise (tahillah – songs of adoration and thanksgiving) of Yisra’el (from sarah, those who contend, persist, and persevere with ‘el/God, and are empowered by ‘el/God). (Psalm 22:3)

In You our fathers trusted (batach – relied upon, were confident and secure in). They trusted (batach – relied); You delivered them (palat – brought them into a place of security and safety; rescued them, helping them escape and survive). (Psalm 22:4)

To You they cried out (za’aq – called for help, assembled together, and summoned) and were spared (malat – delivered, rescued, and saved). In You they trusted and relied (batach) and were not disappointed (buwsh – put to shame, suffering emotional distress and despair).” (Psalm 22:5)

“I Am but a crimson grub (towla’ – a bloodied scarlet pulp), and not extant, present as a person (‘iysh – a man, husband, or champion [i.e., I’m now less than human]), rebuked and reproached (cherpah – scorned and taunted, disgraced and dishonored as contemptible, insulted with slurs) by man (‘adam - humankind), and despised (bazah – disregarded, held in contempt, and ridiculed; seen as worthless, lightly regarded, and of little value) by the family (‘am – kin and specifically Israel).” (Psalm 22:6)

“All who see Me (ra’ah – gaze at, look upon, and inspect Me) deride and mock (la’ag – speak unintelligibly about, disparaging, scoffing and ridiculing) Me. They shoot off their mouths (patar saphah – flap their lips) and shake their heads, saying, ‘Commit your removal (galal – roll yourself down and away) to the God (‘el) Yahuweh. Let Him deliver (palat) him. Let Him snatch him away (natsal – rescue him). Surely He delights in (chaphets – desires and is pleased with) him.’” (Psalm 22:7-8)

“Indeed (kiy), You [God] caused me to come forth (giyach) out of the womb (beten). You caused me to trust (batach) upon my mother’s breast. (Psalm 22:9)

I was thrown down (shalak – cast off, forth, and away) out of (min) the point of origin (rechem – womb as in matrix, a spatial position indicative of the source; from racham, meaning love, mercy and compassion). You have been My God (‘el) from my mother’s (‘em) belly (beten – womb).” (Psalm 22:10)

“Do not remove Yourself (rachaq – sever, recede and distance Yourself, go away) from (min – out of and away from) Me, because the Adversary’s affliction (tsarah – the enemy’s anguish and oppressor’s tribulation; suffering) is near (qarob – personal and imminent in space-time). For indeed, no one (ayin - nothing) can help (azar – protect, support, or aid) Me.” (Psalm 22:11)

“Many strong bulls (par) surround Me (cabab – assemble around and encircle Me), aggressively attacking (‘abir – with powerful supernatural warring) serpents (bashan). They have besieged and crowned Me in hostile fashion (kathar – gathered about and hostilely hemmed Me in, placing a circular crown on Me).” (Psalm 22:12)

“They opened (patsah) their mouths (peh) against (‘al) Me, plucking and tearing Me to pieces (taraph – mangling Me, ripping apart My soft tissues with sharp objects, violently flailing Me so as to inflict an abhorrent death) like a raving and roaring ‘Ariydatha’.” (Psalm 22:13)

“I am poured out and emptied of (sepeq) water. Whole (kol) limbs (‘etsem - bones) are stretched, separated and out of joint (parad). My heart is melting like wax (downag). It is growing faint and wasting away (masas – dissolving and liquefying). Internally, (tavak – inside My midst) in My abdomen (me’eh – internal organs around the belly; i.e., the diaphragm isn’t working), My vigor and strength (koach) is withered and failed (yabesh – dried up without moisture and incapacitated) like sun-baked dust (cheres – a broken sun-hardened vessel of earthenware). My tongue cleaves (dabaq – is made to stick) to my gums. They have placed Me (sapat – set and established Me) as (shaphat) the dust and debris (‘aphar – the powdery ash and rubbish) of death (maveth).” (Psalm 22:14-15)

“For the contemptible and abased yelpers (keleb – loud and attacking, unfaithful pagan dogs; evil prostitutes of a lowly status and violent nature; puppets and traitors) have surrounded (sabab - encircled) Me. The socio-religious assemblage (‘edah – band or swarm, congregation) of corrupt, injurious evil doers (ra’a’) go around Me and peel off My skin (naqaph). They pierced (kuwr) my hands and my feet.” (Psalm 22:16)

“I can count (saphar – record, measure, and make an accounting of) all my bones [i.e., nothing is broken]. They stare at Me and gloat.” (Psalm 22:17)

“They divide (chalaq – plunder, assign, and distribute) My garments among themselves, and for my clothing they cast lots.” (Psalm 22:18)

“Yahuweh, do not distance Yourself (rachaq – sever and remove Yourself, avoid and stand aloof) from Me. My ‘Eyalut (‘eyalut – feminine form of ‘eyal used in parallel with YHWH, a title meaning Your Strength and Your Helper, She Who Provides Aid), come quickly (chuwsh – act swiftly, swooping down, hastening to rush upon and prepare Me, making Me ready) assisting and helping (‘ezrah – providing relief for) Me.” (Psalm 22:19)

“Snatch away and save (natsal – rescue, spare, defend, and deliver) my Soul (nepesh) from waste, desolation, and ruin (charab – from being dried up and devastated), Your only begotten Son (yachiyd) from the power (yad) of the contemptible and abased yelpers (keleb).” (Psalm 22:20)

“Save Me (yasha’ – deliver, rescue, and liberate Me) from ‘Ariydatha’s mouth, for You have responded to (‘anah – answered, testified about, and born witness to) Me from (min) the horns of light on the summit of the mountain (qeren – sending out brilliant rays of light, from the trumpet which conveys a message) and lifted Me up (ra’am).” (Psalm 22:21)

“I will relate (saphar – record, recount, reckon, rehearse, declare, proclaim) Your name (shem – Your proper designation, reputation, renown, fame, glory, status, memorial, mark, domain, establishment, appointed ordination, and Your means to be distinguished) to my brethren (‘ach – brothers, relatives, kin, and tribe) in the midst of the assembly (qahal – congregation, convocation, and community), radiating Your brilliant source of clear light (halal).” (Psalm 22:22)

“You who revere (yare’) Yahuweh radiate His light (halal – make His brilliant source of illumination clearly visible). All descendants (zera’ – seed, children, offspring, family, and race) of Ya’aqob consider Him worthy of respect and massively significant (kabad). Gather together and dwell with Him (guwr) all you descendants of Yisra’el.” (Psalm 22:23)

“Indeed (kiy), He has not held in contempt or disdained (bazah), nor has He detested and counted as filthy (shaqats – having an aversion for) the afflicted, bruised, and suffering (‘enut), the oppressed, poor, needy, unpretentious, and straightforward (‘aniy – those who are not arrogant, prideful, or filled with hubris). Neither has He concealed His presence (paniym – face or countenance) from him. When he cried out for help (shawa’) to Him, He listened.” (Psalm 22:24)

“My song of adoration and thanksgiving (tahillah), together with (‘et) and because of (min) You, shall be abundant in the assembly. I will restore and repay, providing restitution, finishing and fulfilling (shalem), making a freewill offering (neder – to make a choice on one’s own accord) conspicuously, in full view (neged – before and in the presence) of those who revere Him.” (Psalm 22:25)

“The poor, needy, meek, humble, weak, lowly, and afflicted (‘anav) shall be fed (akal) and be completely satisfied (saba). Those who seek, consult with, follow, and rely upon (darash) Yahuweh radiate His brilliant and clear light (halal); their consciences (lebab – inner nature and person, heart, mind, and soul, their thoughts, feelings, and passions) shall live forever.” (Psalm 22:26)

“The entire world shall return and be restored (shuwb – turn around and think differently, reestablishing Spiritual relations, refreshed and renewed) thinking about, paying attention to, recalling, and confessing (zakar – being brought to remembrance so as to declare, recite, proclaim, and commemorate) Yahuweh. Every family (mishpachah – household, tribe, related race) and Gentile nation (gowy) shall worship (sahah – bowing down) in His presence (paniym).” (Psalm 22:27)

“For Kingship (maluwkah) is Yahuweh’s. He has dominion (mashal – reigns, exercises authority, and governs) over the Gentile nations.” (Psalm 22:28)

“All the anointed (dashen – the chosen harvest, those who are covered, the prosperous, vigorous bodily, and mentally acute) on earth shall be fed (‘akal) and be rewarded (sahah). All those who descend (yarad – go down, are lowered, prostrate themselves, subjugated and conquered, and who are brought down) to dust (‘aphar – powder, ash, and rubbish) will kneel (kara’) before Him, as no one can keep his soul alive (nepesh chayah).” (Psalm 22:29)

“Posterity shall serve Him, and it shall be recorded and recounted (saphar – inscribed and proclaimed) to the foundation of the Upright One (‘edon), for a place to dwell over a revolution of time (dowr – a house, dwelling place, tabernacle, and a generation). (Psalm 22:30)

They shall come conspicuously announcing, exposing and declaring (nagad – explaining and manifesting) His vindication (tsadaqah – declaration of innocence, justification, and truthfullness) to a family (‘am – people and nation) that shall be born that He has accomplished (asah – instituted and bestowed) this.” (Psalm 22:31)

[Menachem]

ManwithDream, welcome, I too am new to this forum and have been researching the same Psalm. It would seem to me if David had lion like hands and feet, he would not have fear of dogs, bulls, or Pagans? He did after all slay Goliath. Certainly, King David had enemies and at times they sorrounded him. But it is hard to ignore the stunningly detailed similarity his description has to the whipping, scoffing, beating, and cruficixion that Yahshua of Nazereth endured.

I find the verses as most translations I've studied, both Jewish (JPS Tanach based on the 11th century CE Masoretic texts) and Christian (King James, NIV, NASB...) to make little sense in the context of the language of the rest of the Psalm. I believe the BCE texts of the Dead Sea Scrolls (1st-2nd Century BCE) and Greek Septuagint (3rd Century BCE) to be more reliable and when rendered in English are wholly consistant. Let me know what you make of the following:

“My God (‘el – God singular), my God, why (mah – by what means, how long and to what end) have You forsaken (azab – abandoned and relinquished Me, left Me desolate, separated from Me and departed from Me, damned and deserted) Me? Far (rachowq – remote in distance and time, separated in space-time; alienated and no longer in a state of close association; from rachaq, meaning to be removed and distant, to be sent off and to go far) away from (min – out of and separated from) Yahushua, My salvation (yashuw’ah (יְשׁוּעָה) – Yahushua; a compound name derived from Yahuweh and yasha’ (יָשַׁע) to save, salvation, and Savior) are the words of my groaning (sheagah – roaring anguish). (Psalm 22:1)

O my God (‘elohiym), I call out (qara’ – summon) in the daytime (yowmam), but You do not answer (‘anah – respond); and by night (layil) but I have no rest (dumiyah – silence or relief; repose from laying down in death).” (Psalm 22:2)

“But You are the Set-Apart One (‘attah qodesh). You live and remain (yashab – dwell throughout time; inhabit and establish a home; marry and restore). You are the praise (tahillah – songs of adoration and thanksgiving) of Yisra’el (from sarah, those who contend, persist, and persevere with ‘el/God, and are empowered by ‘el/God). (Psalm 22:3)

In You our fathers trusted (batach – relied upon, were confident and secure in). They trusted (batach – relied); You delivered them (palat – brought them into a place of security and safety; rescued them, helping them escape and survive). (Psalm 22:4)

To You they cried out (za’aq – called for help, assembled together, and summoned) and were spared (malat – delivered, rescued, and saved). In You they trusted and relied (batach) and were not disappointed (buwsh – put to shame, suffering emotional distress and despair).” (Psalm 22:5)

“I Am but a crimson grub (towla’ – a bloodied scarlet pulp), and not extant, present as a person (‘iysh – a man, husband, or champion [i.e., I’m now less than human]), rebuked and reproached (cherpah – scorned and taunted, disgraced and dishonored as contemptible, insulted with slurs) by man (‘adam - humankind), and despised (bazah – disregarded, held in contempt, and ridiculed; seen as worthless, lightly regarded, and of little value) by the family (‘am – kin and specifically Israel).” (Psalm 22:6)

“All who see Me (ra’ah – gaze at, look upon, and inspect Me) deride and mock (la’ag – speak unintelligibly about, disparaging, scoffing and ridiculing) Me. They shoot off their mouths (patar saphah – flap their lips) and shake their heads, saying, ‘Commit your removal (galal – roll yourself down and away) to the God (‘el) Yahuweh. Let Him deliver (palat) him. Let Him snatch him away (natsal – rescue him). Surely He delights in (chaphets – desires and is pleased with) him.’” (Psalm 22:7-8)

“Indeed (kiy), You [God] caused me to come forth (giyach) out of the womb (beten). You caused me to trust (batach) upon my mother’s breast. (Psalm 22:9)

I was thrown down (shalak – cast off, forth, and away) out of (min) the point of origin (rechem – womb as in matrix, a spatial position indicative of the source; from racham, meaning love, mercy and compassion). You have been My God (‘el) from my mother’s (‘em) belly (beten – womb).” (Psalm 22:10)

“Do not remove Yourself (rachaq – sever, recede and distance Yourself, go away) from (min – out of and away from) Me, because the Adversary’s affliction (tsarah – the enemy’s anguish and oppressor’s tribulation; suffering) is near (qarob – personal and imminent in space-time). For indeed, no one (ayin - nothing) can help (azar – protect, support, or aid) Me.” (Psalm 22:11)

“Many strong bulls (par) surround Me (cabab – assemble around and encircle Me), aggressively attacking (‘abir – with powerful supernatural warring) serpents (bashan). They have besieged and crowned Me in hostile fashion (kathar – gathered about and hostilely hemmed Me in, placing a circular crown on Me).” (Psalm 22:12)

“They opened (patsah) their mouths (peh) against (‘al) Me, plucking and tearing Me to pieces (taraph – mangling Me, ripping apart My soft tissues with sharp objects, violently flailing Me so as to inflict an abhorrent death) like a raving and roaring ‘Ariydatha’.” (Psalm 22:13)

“I am poured out and emptied of (sepeq) water. Whole (kol) limbs (‘etsem - bones) are stretched, separated and out of joint (parad). My heart is melting like wax (downag). It is growing faint and wasting away (masas – dissolving and liquefying). Internally, (tavak – inside My midst) in My abdomen (me’eh – internal organs around the belly; i.e., the diaphragm isn’t working), My vigor and strength (koach) is withered and failed (yabesh – dried up without moisture and incapacitated) like sun-baked dust (cheres – a broken sun-hardened vessel of earthenware). My tongue cleaves (dabaq – is made to stick) to my gums. They have placed Me (sapat – set and established Me) as (shaphat) the dust and debris (‘aphar – the powdery ash and rubbish) of death (maveth).” (Psalm 22:14-15)

“For the contemptible and abased yelpers (keleb – loud and attacking, unfaithful pagan dogs; evil prostitutes of a lowly status and violent nature; puppets and traitors) have surrounded (sabab - encircled) Me. The socio-religious assemblage (‘edah – band or swarm, congregation) of corrupt, injurious evil doers (ra’a’) go around Me and peel off My skin (naqaph). They pierced (kuwr) my hands and my feet.” (Psalm 22:16)

“I can count (saphar – record, measure, and make an accounting of) all my bones [i.e., nothing is broken]. They stare at Me and gloat.” (Psalm 22:17)

“They divide (chalaq – plunder, assign, and distribute) My garments among themselves, and for my clothing they cast lots.” (Psalm 22:18)

“Yahuweh, do not distance Yourself (rachaq – sever and remove Yourself, avoid and stand aloof) from Me. My ‘Eyalut (‘eyalut – feminine form of ‘eyal used in parallel with YHWH, a title meaning Your Strength and Your Helper, She Who Provides Aid), come quickly (chuwsh – act swiftly, swooping down, hastening to rush upon and prepare Me, making Me ready) assisting and helping (‘ezrah – providing relief for) Me.” (Psalm 22:19)

“Snatch away and save (natsal – rescue, spare, defend, and deliver) my Soul (nepesh) from waste, desolation, and ruin (charab – from being dried up and devastated), Your only begotten Son (yachiyd) from the power (yad) of the contemptible and abased yelpers (keleb).” (Psalm 22:20)

“Save Me (yasha’ – deliver, rescue, and liberate Me) from ‘Ariydatha’s mouth, for You have responded to (‘anah – answered, testified about, and born witness to) Me from (min) the horns of light on the summit of the mountain (qeren – sending out brilliant rays of light, from the trumpet which conveys a message) and lifted Me up (ra’am).” (Psalm 22:21)

“I will relate (saphar – record, recount, reckon, rehearse, declare, proclaim) Your name (shem – Your proper designation, reputation, renown, fame, glory, status, memorial, mark, domain, establishment, appointed ordination, and Your means to be distinguished) to my brethren (‘ach – brothers, relatives, kin, and tribe) in the midst of the assembly (qahal – congregation, convocation, and community), radiating Your brilliant source of clear light (halal).” (Psalm 22:22)

“You who revere (yare’) Yahuweh radiate His light (halal – make His brilliant source of illumination clearly visible). All descendants (zera’ – seed, children, offspring, family, and race) of Ya’aqob consider Him worthy of respect and massively significant (kabad). Gather together and dwell with Him (guwr) all you descendants of Yisra’el.” (Psalm 22:23)

“Indeed (kiy), He has not held in contempt or disdained (bazah), nor has He detested and counted as filthy (shaqats – having an aversion for) the afflicted, bruised, and suffering (‘enut), the oppressed, poor, needy, unpretentious, and straightforward (‘aniy – those who are not arrogant, prideful, or filled with hubris). Neither has He concealed His presence (paniym – face or countenance) from him. When he cried out for help (shawa’) to Him, He listened.” (Psalm 22:24)

“My song of adoration and thanksgiving (tahillah), together with (‘et) and because of (min) You, shall be abundant in the assembly. I will restore and repay, providing restitution, finishing and fulfilling (shalem), making a freewill offering (neder – to make a choice on one’s own accord) conspicuously, in full view (neged – before and in the presence) of those who revere Him.” (Psalm 22:25)

“The poor, needy, meek, humble, weak, lowly, and afflicted (‘anav) shall be fed (akal) and be completely satisfied (saba). Those who seek, consult with, follow, and rely upon (darash) Yahuweh radiate His brilliant and clear light (halal); their consciences (lebab – inner nature and person, heart, mind, and soul, their thoughts, feelings, and passions) shall live forever.” (Psalm 22:26)

“The entire world shall return and be restored (shuwb – turn around and think differently, reestablishing Spiritual relations, refreshed and renewed) thinking about, paying attention to, recalling, and confessing (zakar – being brought to remembrance so as to declare, recite, proclaim, and commemorate) Yahuweh. Every family (mishpachah – household, tribe, related race) and Gentile nation (gowy) shall worship (sahah – bowing down) in His presence (paniym).” (Psalm 22:27)

“For Kingship (maluwkah) is Yahuweh’s. He has dominion (mashal – reigns, exercises authority, and governs) over the Gentile nations.” (Psalm 22:28)

“All the anointed (dashen – the chosen harvest, those who are covered, the prosperous, vigorous bodily, and mentally acute) on earth shall be fed (‘akal) and be rewarded (sahah). All those who descend (yarad – go down, are lowered, prostrate themselves, subjugated and conquered, and who are brought down) to dust (‘aphar – powder, ash, and rubbish) will kneel (kara’) before Him, as no one can keep his soul alive (nepesh chayah).” (Psalm 22:29)

“Posterity shall serve Him, and it shall be recorded and recounted (saphar – inscribed and proclaimed) to the foundation of the Upright One (‘edon), for a place to dwell over a revolution of time (dowr – a house, dwelling place, tabernacle, and a generation). (Psalm 22:30)

They shall come conspicuously announcing, exposing and declaring (nagad – explaining and manifesting) His vindication (tsadaqah – declaration of innocence, justification, and truthfullness) to a family (‘am – people and nation) that shall be born that He has accomplished (asah – instituted and bestowed) this.” (Psalm 22:31)

Hey Gav what do you think Should I just or should I at this?

[Krusader]

Hey Gav what do you think Should I just or should I at this?

Hey, Tweedle dee and Tweedle dum - what's the difference?

[Menachem]

Hey, Tweedle dee and Tweedle dum - what's the difference?

Nice insult! Did it ever occur to you that I wasnt speaking to you? Of course not, Meshugenehs never listen do they Crusader?

[Krusader]

Nice insult! Did it ever occur to you that I wasnt speaking to you? Of course not, Meshugenehs never listen do they Crusader?

Tweedle dee, Tweedle dumb!

[Menachem]

Tweedle dee, Tweedle dumb!

Ah more insults what else is new. Along with you capacity to never answer posts you add the unique quality of cry babying as well.

[Krusader]

Ah more insults what else is new. Along with you capacity to never answer posts you add the unique quality of cry babying as well.

How did you respond to the post you insulted, oh high and mighty Yeshiva boy? You simply ridiculed it. You like to dish it out, but can never take it.

[Menachem]

How did you respond to the post you insulted, oh high and mighty Yeshiva boy? You simply ridiculed it. You like to dish it out, but can never take it.

Why should I do anything else? the level of Ignorance in this "translation" speaks for itself. Besides who are you to talk about this anyway? That is all you do in this section.

FYI, I did not insult the poster nor anything else, Like you do. I simply laughed at the product of the work. So Crusader next time you post about something like this make sure you have room to talk about it. meshugneh!

[Gavriel]

Hey Gav what do you think Should I just or should I at this?

Go for it!

Notice when Crusader has nothing intelligible to say she resorts to some tried and true ad hominems? I would expect more out of a "published author!"

[Krusader]

Go for it!

Notice when Crusader has nothing intelligible to say she resorts to some tried and true ad hominems? I would expect more out of a "published author!"

Instead of merely putting up little laughing faces, why don't you deal with what Eli posted. Is it because you cannot?

[Sevivon1913]

Instead of merely putting up little laughing faces, why don't you deal with what Eli posted. Is it because you cannot?

Maybe they are waiting for you to deal with what they posted in some other threads, particularly quotes from the Torah, which you have thusfar ignored.

[Gavriel]

Instead of merely putting up little laughing faces, why don't you deal with what Eli posted. Is it because you cannot?

[manwithdream]

ManwithDream, welcome, I too am new to this forum and have been researching the same Psalm. It would seem to me if David had lion like hands and feet, he would not have fear of dogs, bulls, or Pagans? He did after all slay Goliath. Certainly, King David had enemies and at times they sorrounded him. But it is hard to ignore the stunningly detailed similarity his description has to the whipping, scoffing, beating, and cruficixion that Yahshua of Nazereth endured.

I find the verses as most translations I've studied, both Jewish (JPS Tanach based on the 11th century CE Masoretic texts) and Christian (King James, NIV, NASB...) to make little sense in the context of the language of the rest of the Psalm. I believe the BCE texts of the Dead Sea Scrolls (1st-2nd Century BCE) and Greek Septuagint (3rd Century BCE) to be more reliable and when rendered in English are wholly consistant. Let me know what you make of the following:

“My God (‘el – God singular), my God, why (mah – by what means, how long and to what end) have You forsaken (azab – abandoned and relinquished Me, left Me desolate, separated from Me and departed from Me, damned and deserted) Me? Far (rachowq – remote in distance and time, separated in space-time; alienated and no longer in a state of close association; from rachaq, meaning to be removed and distant, to be sent off and to go far) away from (min – out of and separated from) Yahushua, My salvation (yashuw’ah (יְשׁוּעָה) – Yahushua; a compound name derived from Yahuweh and yasha’ (יָשַׁע) to save, salvation, and Savior) are the words of my groaning (sheagah – roaring anguish). (Psalm 22:1)

O my God (‘elohiym), I call out (qara’ – summon) in the daytime (yowmam), but You do not answer (‘anah – respond); and by night (layil) but I have no rest (dumiyah – silence or relief; repose from laying down in death).” (Psalm 22:2)

“But You are the Set-Apart One (‘attah qodesh). You live and remain (yashab – dwell throughout time; inhabit and establish a home; marry and restore). You are the praise (tahillah – songs of adoration and thanksgiving) of Yisra’el (from sarah, those who contend, persist, and persevere with ‘el/God, and are empowered by ‘el/God). (Psalm 22:3)

In You our fathers trusted (batach – relied upon, were confident and secure in). They trusted (batach – relied); You delivered them (palat – brought them into a place of security and safety; rescued them, helping them escape and survive). (Psalm 22:4)

To You they cried out (za’aq – called for help, assembled together, and summoned) and were spared (malat – delivered, rescued, and saved). In You they trusted and relied (batach) and were not disappointed (buwsh – put to shame, suffering emotional distress and despair).” (Psalm 22:5)

“I Am but a crimson grub (towla’ – a bloodied scarlet pulp), and not extant, present as a person (‘iysh – a man, husband, or champion [i.e., I’m now less than human]), rebuked and reproached (cherpah – scorned and taunted, disgraced and dishonored as contemptible, insulted with slurs) by man (‘adam - humankind), and despised (bazah – disregarded, held in contempt, and ridiculed; seen as worthless, lightly regarded, and of little value) by the family (‘am – kin and specifically Israel).” (Psalm 22:6)

“All who see Me (ra’ah – gaze at, look upon, and inspect Me) deride and mock (la’ag – speak unintelligibly about, disparaging, scoffing and ridiculing) Me. They shoot off their mouths (patar saphah – flap their lips) and shake their heads, saying, ‘Commit your removal (galal – roll yourself down and away) to the God (‘el) Yahuweh. Let Him deliver (palat) him. Let Him snatch him away (natsal – rescue him). Surely He delights in (chaphets – desires and is pleased with) him.’” (Psalm 22:7-8)

“Indeed (kiy), You [God] caused me to come forth (giyach) out of the womb (beten). You caused me to trust (batach) upon my mother’s breast. (Psalm 22:9)

I was thrown down (shalak – cast off, forth, and away) out of (min) the point of origin (rechem – womb as in matrix, a spatial position indicative of the source; from racham, meaning love, mercy and compassion). You have been My God (‘el) from my mother’s (‘em) belly (beten – womb).” (Psalm 22:10)

“Do not remove Yourself (rachaq – sever, recede and distance Yourself, go away) from (min – out of and away from) Me, because the Adversary’s affliction (tsarah – the enemy’s anguish and oppressor’s tribulation; suffering) is near (qarob – personal and imminent in space-time). For indeed, no one (ayin - nothing) can help (azar – protect, support, or aid) Me.” (Psalm 22:11)

“Many strong bulls (par) surround Me (cabab – assemble around and encircle Me), aggressively attacking (‘abir – with powerful supernatural warring) serpents (bashan). They have besieged and crowned Me in hostile fashion (kathar – gathered about and hostilely hemmed Me in, placing a circular crown on Me).” (Psalm 22:12)

“They opened (patsah) their mouths (peh) against (‘al) Me, plucking and tearing Me to pieces (taraph – mangling Me, ripping apart My soft tissues with sharp objects, violently flailing Me so as to inflict an abhorrent death) like a raving and roaring ‘Ariydatha’.” (Psalm 22:13)

“I am poured out and emptied of (sepeq) water. Whole (kol) limbs (‘etsem - bones) are stretched, separated and out of joint (parad). My heart is melting like wax (downag). It is growing faint and wasting away (masas – dissolving and liquefying). Internally, (tavak – inside My midst) in My abdomen (me’eh – internal organs around the belly; i.e., the diaphragm isn’t working), My vigor and strength (koach) is withered and failed (yabesh – dried up without moisture and incapacitated) like sun-baked dust (cheres – a broken sun-hardened vessel of earthenware). My tongue cleaves (dabaq – is made to stick) to my gums. They have placed Me (sapat – set and established Me) as (shaphat) the dust and debris (‘aphar – the powdery ash and rubbish) of death (maveth).” (Psalm 22:14-15)

“For the contemptible and abased yelpers (keleb – loud and attacking, unfaithful pagan dogs; evil prostitutes of a lowly status and violent nature; puppets and traitors) have surrounded (sabab - encircled) Me. The socio-religious assemblage (‘edah – band or swarm, congregation) of corrupt, injurious evil doers (ra’a’) go around Me and peel off My skin (naqaph). They pierced (kuwr) my hands and my feet.” (Psalm 22:16)

“I can count (saphar – record, measure, and make an accounting of) all my bones [i.e., nothing is broken]. They stare at Me and gloat.” (Psalm 22:17)

“They divide (chalaq – plunder, assign, and distribute) My garments among themselves, and for my clothing they cast lots.” (Psalm 22:18)

“Yahuweh, do not distance Yourself (rachaq – sever and remove Yourself, avoid and stand aloof) from Me. My ‘Eyalut (‘eyalut – feminine form of ‘eyal used in parallel with YHWH, a title meaning Your Strength and Your Helper, She Who Provides Aid), come quickly (chuwsh – act swiftly, swooping down, hastening to rush upon and prepare Me, making Me ready) assisting and helping (‘ezrah – providing relief for) Me.” (Psalm 22:19)

“Snatch away and save (natsal – rescue, spare, defend, and deliver) my Soul (nepesh) from waste, desolation, and ruin (charab – from being dried up and devastated), Your only begotten Son (yachiyd) from the power (yad) of the contemptible and abased yelpers (keleb).” (Psalm 22:20)

“Save Me (yasha’ – deliver, rescue, and liberate Me) from ‘Ariydatha’s mouth, for You have responded to (‘anah – answered, testified about, and born witness to) Me from (min) the horns of light on the summit of the mountain (qeren – sending out brilliant rays of light, from the trumpet which conveys a message) and lifted Me up (ra’am).” (Psalm 22:21)

“I will relate (saphar – record, recount, reckon, rehearse, declare, proclaim) Your name (shem – Your proper designation, reputation, renown, fame, glory, status, memorial, mark, domain, establishment, appointed ordination, and Your means to be distinguished) to my brethren (‘ach – brothers, relatives, kin, and tribe) in the midst of the assembly (qahal – congregation, convocation, and community), radiating Your brilliant source of clear light (halal).” (Psalm 22:22)

“You who revere (yare’) Yahuweh radiate His light (halal – make His brilliant source of illumination clearly visible). All descendants (zera’ – seed, children, offspring, family, and race) of Ya’aqob consider Him worthy of respect and massively significant (kabad). Gather together and dwell with Him (guwr) all you descendants of Yisra’el.” (Psalm 22:23)

“Indeed (kiy), He has not held in contempt or disdained (bazah), nor has He detested and counted as filthy (shaqats – having an aversion for) the afflicted, bruised, and suffering (‘enut), the oppressed, poor, needy, unpretentious, and straightforward (‘aniy – those who are not arrogant, prideful, or filled with hubris). Neither has He concealed His presence (paniym – face or countenance) from him. When he cried out for help (shawa’) to Him, He listened.” (Psalm 22:24)

“My song of adoration and thanksgiving (tahillah), together with (‘et) and because of (min) You, shall be abundant in the assembly. I will restore and repay, providing restitution, finishing and fulfilling (shalem), making a freewill offering (neder – to make a choice on one’s own accord) conspicuously, in full view (neged – before and in the presence) of those who revere Him.” (Psalm 22:25)

“The poor, needy, meek, humble, weak, lowly, and afflicted (‘anav) shall be fed (akal) and be completely satisfied (saba). Those who seek, consult with, follow, and rely upon (darash) Yahuweh radiate His brilliant and clear light (halal); their consciences (lebab – inner nature and person, heart, mind, and soul, their thoughts, feelings, and passions) shall live forever.” (Psalm 22:26)

“The entire world shall return and be restored (shuwb – turn around and think differently, reestablishing Spiritual relations, refreshed and renewed) thinking about, paying attention to, recalling, and confessing (zakar – being brought to remembrance so as to declare, recite, proclaim, and commemorate) Yahuweh. Every family (mishpachah – household, tribe, related race) and Gentile nation (gowy) shall worship (sahah – bowing down) in His presence (paniym).” (Psalm 22:27)

“For Kingship (maluwkah) is Yahuweh’s. He has dominion (mashal – reigns, exercises authority, and governs) over the Gentile nations.” (Psalm 22:28)

“All the anointed (dashen – the chosen harvest, those who are covered, the prosperous, vigorous bodily, and mentally acute) on earth shall be fed (‘akal) and be rewarded (sahah). All those who descend (yarad – go down, are lowered, prostrate themselves, subjugated and conquered, and who are brought down) to dust (‘aphar – powder, ash, and rubbish) will kneel (kara’) before Him, as no one can keep his soul alive (nepesh chayah).” (Psalm 22:29)

“Posterity shall serve Him, and it shall be recorded and recounted (saphar – inscribed and proclaimed) to the foundation of the Upright One (‘edon), for a place to dwell over a revolution of time (dowr – a house, dwelling place, tabernacle, and a generation). (Psalm 22:30)

They shall come conspicuously announcing, exposing and declaring (nagad – explaining and manifesting) His vindication (tsadaqah – declaration of innocence, justification, and truthfullness) to a family (‘am – people and nation) that shall be born that He has accomplished (asah – instituted and bestowed) this.” (Psalm 22:31)

I have not been to this discussion forum for a long time and I did not think anyone would answer my idea about psalm 22. You asked how King David could be weak like a worm. I think he felt weak when Absalom tried to take over. In 2 Sam 15:30, King David was crying, so I think he was sad and temporarily weak.
I don't mind if a lot of people think my idea is dumb. Most people only want to believe what has been passed down over a long time. It would not matter if the usual translation does not make sense because tradition is hard to resist.
No one has said why my idea is wrong. It is just wrong because it is not what they believe already.

[Menachem]

I have not been to this discussion forum for a long time and I did not think anyone would answer my idea about psalm 22. You asked how King David could be weak like a worm. I think he felt weak when Absalom tried to take over. In 2 Sam 15:30, King David was crying, so I think he was sad and temporarily weak.
I don't mind if a lot of people think my idea is dumb. Most people only want to believe what has been passed down over a long time. It would not matter if the usual translation does not make sense because tradition is hard to resist.
No one has said why my idea is wrong. It is just wrong because it is not what they believe already.

I thought the Idea was rather interesting and plausible. No one is saying you are wrong. The hebrew text, in many cases, ends with the wrong word for a verse. However when someone like this guy El-I-Yah comes in and posts the type of post he made I could do little but laugh.