Does the Christian Bible Exist?

[Pitchforkpat]

Does the Christian Bible Exist?

The Christian Bible is a collection of a larger set of independent books. There were early, variant collections before what we know as “The Bible” was finally fixed in the 4th century. Various versions and translations of this Christian Bible exist today and all contain minor errors and contradictions of this kind:

2nd Samuel 8:4 says, "And David took from him a thousand chariots, and seven hundred horsemen, and twenty thousand footmen." Meanwhile, 1st Chronicles 18:4 says, "And David took from him a thousand chariots, and seven thousand horsemen and twenty thousand footmen."

When David is offered a choice of three punishments, two accounts of the story contradict each other. 2nd Samuel 24:13 says David was offered 7 years of famine: "Shall seven years of famine come unto thee in thy land? Or wilt thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue thee? Or that there be three days' pestilence in thy land?" In the Chronicles version, on the other hand, David is offered only three years of famine: "Thus saith the Lord, Choose thee either three years of famine; or three months to be destroyed before thy foes...or else three days the sword of the Lord, even the pestilence, in the land (21:11-12)."

Inerrantists who are aware of contradictions like these, but want to maintain the tenet of inerrancy use the excuse that these errors were not in the original manuscripts. But then, as noted the Bible is not a collection of original manuscripts. It is a collection of copies of copies which vary. Since no original manuscripts exist, if one claims that the Bible is a collection of original manuscripts, then it doesn’t exist. You can’t have it both ways. Either the Bible is a collection of copies of copies (which it is) and contains errors, or it doesn’t exist.

[technomage]

I honestly can't decide if you are taking this seriously, or just poking fun. I'll opt for poking fun, and enjoy the show.

If by some odd coincidence you are serious, please don't ruin my enjoyment by telling me, OK?

[Zeluvia]

I honestly can't decide if you are taking this seriously, or just poking fun. I'll opt for poking fun, and enjoy the show.

If by some odd coincidence you are serious, please don't ruin my enjoyment by telling me, OK?

Dear Pitch,
The Bible exists, it is the complete word of god, every word in it is absolutely true, and you must treat the very book itself, even if you find it in a hotel room, with reverence because the entire thing is sacred.

I just verified this with my evangelical neighbor. She knows nothing of manuscripts, or copies, or apocrypha, or Nicene, or early Christian politics, and won't watch those shows on History or National Geographic because they are influenced by the devil.

I hope this helps you reach understanding.

[Pitchforkpat]

I honestly can't decide if you are taking this seriously, or just poking fun. I'll opt for poking fun, and enjoy the show.

Sorry about the lack of show. I assumed that there would be inerrantists who would want to defend their principle. I wouldn't have thought it would be that difficult.

[Zeluvia]

Sorry about the lack of show. I assumed that there would be inerrantists who would want to defend their principle. I wouldn't have thought it would be that difficult.

The modus operandi around here seems to be to imply that all the possible inconsistancies are due to the people with questions about them being too stupid to understand why the passages are inconsistant.

Meanwhile, they are apologizing for and defending the faith of people like my neighbor, who wear their stupidity like an inviolate halo and brook no dissension because it is evil to think, despite the Biblical passages about wisdom and questioning, because clearly this isn't a big point to bring up on Sunday at the mega-church where they get their canned dogma from, and they don't read the Bible, really.

But you wont find her on the internet either because it is also Satan's tool.

[Piebald]

if one claims that the Bible is a collection of original manuscripts, then it doesn’t exist

I think this is correct . . . I suppose. "The Bible" is a nebulous term used to describe a body of religious literature spanning thousands of years collected and organized into a single canon. I guess you could say "the bible" didn't exist until the last part of the canon was completed. It just seems like a terminology issue, though.

[FirstSunday33ad]

Dear Pitch,
The Bible exists, it is the complete word of god, every word in it is absolutely true, and you must treat the very book itself, even if you find it in a hotel room, with reverence because the entire thing is sacred.

I just verified this with my evangelical neighbor. She knows nothing of manuscripts, or copies, or apocrypha, or Nicene, or early Christian politics, and won't watch those shows on History or National Geographic because they are influenced by the devil.

I hope this helps you reach understanding.

Oh yeah the Nat Geo documentary of Judas that was about a 40 year old manuscript that was already available from Penguin.

What a biogot, who could doubt the veracity of such a program.

(boy did NG get conned on that purchase)

[FirstSunday33ad]

Does the Christian Bible Exist?

The Christian Bible is a collection of a larger set of independent books. There were early, variant collections before what we know as “The Bible” was finally fixed in the 4th century. Various versions and translations of this Christian Bible exist today and all contain minor errors and contradictions of this kind:

2nd Samuel 8:4 says, "And David took from him a thousand chariots, and seven hundred horsemen, and twenty thousand footmen." Meanwhile, 1st Chronicles 18:4 says, "And David took from him a thousand chariots, and seven thousand horsemen and twenty thousand footmen."

When David is offered a choice of three punishments, two accounts of the story contradict each other. 2nd Samuel 24:13 says David was offered 7 years of famine: "Shall seven years of famine come unto thee in thy land? Or wilt thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue thee? Or that there be three days' pestilence in thy land?" In the Chronicles version, on the other hand, David is offered only three years of famine: "Thus saith the Lord, Choose thee either three years of famine; or three months to be destroyed before thy foes...or else three days the sword of the Lord, even the pestilence, in the land (21:11-12)."

Inerrantists who are aware of contradictions like these, but want to maintain the tenet of inerrancy use the excuse that these errors were not in the original manuscripts. But then, as noted the Bible is not a collection of original manuscripts. It is a collection of copies of copies which vary. Since no original manuscripts exist, if one claims that the Bible is a collection of original manuscripts, then it doesn’t exist. You can’t have it both ways. Either the Bible is a collection of copies of copies (which it is) and contains errors, or it doesn’t exist.

Yours is a very "DUH" observation. Its kind of like saying "a book is a collection of pages divided into chapters or it isn't a book". Since that is the definition of "book", you would be right.

The Bible is a collection of written material, much of which preexisted as oral tradition, that was later gathered together and canonized into scripture. The same process was undertaken by the Christian church for the New Testament which forms part of the Christian Bible. The muslims & buddhists had the same process in gathering together the Qu'ran and the Buddhist scripture.

Incidently, you might want to research "inerrancy" before you proceed any further with this. Just a helpful hint because you are going to be stuffed and mounted shortly by others here who understand the concept much better.

[FirstSunday33ad]

The modus operandi around here seems to be to imply that all the possible inconsistancies are due to the people with questions about them being too stupid to understand why the passages are inconsistant.

Meanwhile, they are apologizing for and defending the faith of people like my neighbor, who wear their stupidity like an inviolate halo and brook no dissension because it is evil to think, despite the Biblical passages about wisdom and questioning, because clearly this isn't a big point to bring up on Sunday at the mega-church where they get their canned dogma from, and they don't read the Bible, really.

But you wont find her on the internet either because it is also Satan's tool.

But outside of that you have no problem with Christians, right?

If you are going to object to something, it is perhaps best to learn the history of that something before you begin. If not, then the best way to start your "questioning" is not with "the Bible is false because it contradicts itself here" or with the especially idiotic "who killed Saul" objection but by asking "why does the Bible say X in Sam 1 but Y in King 2?" That is a question and not an accusation.

[Pitchforkpat]

Yours is a very "DUH" observation.

Right, so it really goes without saying that the Bible contains errors/contradictions – like the ones posted in the OP.

The Bible is a collection of written material, much of which preexisted as oral tradition, that was later gathered together and canonized into scripture. The same process was undertaken by the Christian church for the New Testament which forms part of the Christian Bible. The muslims & buddhists had the same process in gathering together the Qu'ran and the Buddhist scripture.

And this isn’t a “DUH” observation? Interesting distinction.

you are going to be stuffed and mounted shortly by others here who understand the concept much better.

Well that is the point of the thread. And I was hoping YOU would have done it.

[Zeluvia]

Right, so it really goes without saying that the Bible contains errors/contradictions – like the ones posted in the OP.


And this isn’t a “DUH” observation? Interesting distinction.

Well that is the point of the thread. And I was hoping YOU would have done it.

Nah my point is simply that while most Christians here on this board are fully capable of thought, and do read and think, there are many who do not.

I think I am most upset not at Christians in general but at the umbrella of Christianity, that covers everyone, regardless of their particular brand of Christianity and its Biblical validity.

I think I have told you all before my brother in law is a preacher for the Christian identity movement. My neighbor is seeing Satan everywhere. Robert Tilton is still making money in the name of Jesus.

Just how commercial and prone to feed destructive neurosis is Christianity, and what are true Christians doing about it?

[salvationfound]

I suppose the Bible doesn't exist. But doesn't that mean no book from
ancient history exists?

[Pitchforkpat]

I suppose the Bible doesn't exist. But doesn't that mean no book from
ancient history exists?

Well that would be true if the answer to the question was the Bible doesn’t exist. But that’s the wrong answer. The correct on is that it does, but it contains errors, like the ones I posted in the OP.

[Glenn P]

The Christian Bible is a collection of a larger set of independent books.

The first sentence is incorrect. The rest is yawn inducing. I mean we all know that Luke was independent of Mark, and Chronicles is independent of the Torah... oops.

[Pitchforkpat]

The first sentence is incorrect.

From Wikipedia:

“The Jewish and Christian Bibles are actually collections of what were originally a number of independent books.”

Well you could make a good argument that the sentence could use some fine tuning, but it doesn’t change the fact that the Bible is not a collection of original manuscripts and that may be why the Bible contains errors. Whether the original manuscripts themselves contain errors, we can't say. They don't exist. There's nothing to check with.